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HOLYWARS 1250

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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby CHAMPOS on Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:33 am

Vlasov wrote:Hi CHAMPOS:

Great map! It's interesting historically and it looks different and challenging. When will it be available as a beta map?

Suggestions:
1) Maybe there could be a sea connection between Europe and North Africa. Sicily is pretty close to Africa (modern Tunisia).
2) Maybe there could be another sea connection at the Strait of Hormuz.

Those changes would affect only the top three regions (Islamic/Mongol/Roman) and it would make their huge bonuses (8 each) more reasonable, since they would be harder to defend.

Historically speaking, I don't know how difficult it was to invade at those locations. Were they any worse than Gibraltar, or southwest Arabia to Somalia?

P.S. My only other suggestion is about the font in the title "HOLYWARS1250AD". Could you use a font that looks more "medieval" ? Here are some examples: http://www.fontspace.com/category/medieval



Thanks for the comments Vlasov, much appreciated.

The next version will address the font, good idea!

The map started with only one sea connection, because it had to have one to link Britain and Ireland. This was due to playability and that most successful invasions at the time were land based. From previous feedback we added two further sea crossings, which I think is reflective of the time. The RCs and ICs are hard enough to defend at present, so I have not added any further crossings. Keeps gameplay a bit more interesting and most of the action will be in the middle of the map (same historically!!)

Thanks again for the comments and also looking forward to getting to the next stage....
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby CHAMPOS on Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:34 am

VERSION 20
- CHANGES TO FONT



Map Name: HOLYWARS 1250
Mapmaker(s):CHAMPOS
Number of Territories:44 (two start neutral, being Jerusalem and Ayyubid Caliphate, leaving 42 to be allocated, all regions start with 3 troops)
Special Features:An historically accurate map, no gaps, simple gameplay....
What Makes This Map Worthy of Being Made: Tried to be historically accurate, on the following basis: the kingdoms/empires at the time (with the areas they ruled/controlled) and then categorised by the rulers religion. There were a number of kingdoms/empires/religions coming together at the same time in 1250AD:
- the Roman Catholics had taken control over mainland Europe from the last Islamic Caliphate holding in Spain,
- the Islamic Caliphates were being attacked from the east by the Tengerian Mongols and from the west by the Roman Catholic crusades,
- the northern Eastern Orthodox territories were under Tengerian Mongol control,
- the Tengerian Mongols had been halted by their leadership changes and power struggles,
- the Indian Hindus were under attack from the Islamic Caliphates and Tengerian Mongols,
- the Oriental Orthodox were under attack from the Islamic Caliphates,
- Crusades continued to Jerusalem, with the following all heading in its direction: Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Islamic Caliphates, Jews and there is also evidence the Tengerian Mongols set foot in Palestine at the time...
Who will prevail...?

LATEST DRAFT


[url][url=https://imgur.com/R8v4SBm]Image[/url]/url]
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby Symmetry on Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:17 pm

CHAMPOS wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Historically speaking, (I promised to leave off map criticism, everyone knows my objections) England would be tough tough to conquer. The last really successful invasion of England was in 1066, by William I (aka William the Conqueror), and that was partly because the previous king, Harold had just fought off another invasion attempt.

Since then, there's been a few kind of invasions, but they've been more like raids, at least concerning the mainland.



I would agree that England would be difficult to conquer, but not for the want of trying at the time. It is however feasible that England could have been conquered at the time.


Feasible, sure, but the Normans heavily fortified the coast. It took two armies to break King Harold, with weaker defences, a weaker army, and weaker internal alliances in 1066 for a full scale invasion.

Even the Romans had trouble when it came to taking the whole island.

Anyway, not sure if you want to incorporate the difficulty into the map, but it is there.
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby CHAMPOS on Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:42 am

VERSION 21
- SOME SLIGHT FONT CHANGES



Map Name: HOLYWARS 1250
Mapmaker(s):CHAMPOS
Number of Territories:44 (two start neutral, being Jerusalem and Ayyubid Caliphate, leaving 42 to be allocated, all regions start with 3 troops)
Special Features:An historically accurate map, no gaps, simple gameplay....
What Makes This Map Worthy of Being Made: Tried to be historically accurate, on the following basis: the kingdoms/empires at the time (with the areas they ruled/controlled) and then categorised by the rulers religion. There were a number of kingdoms/empires/religions coming together at the same time in 1250AD:
- the Roman Catholics had taken control over mainland Europe from the last Islamic Caliphate holding in Spain,
- the Islamic Caliphates were being attacked from the east by the Tengerian Mongols and from the west by the Roman Catholic crusades,
- the northern Eastern Orthodox territories were under Tengerian Mongol control,
- the Tengerian Mongols had been halted by their leadership changes and power struggles,
- the Indian Hindus were under attack from the Islamic Caliphates and Tengerian Mongols,
- the Oriental Orthodox were under attack from the Islamic Caliphates,
- Crusades continued to Jerusalem, with the following all heading in its direction: Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Islamic Caliphates, Jews and there is also evidence the Tengerian Mongols set foot in Palestine at the time...
Who will prevail...?

LATEST DRAFT

[url][url=https://imgur.com/gBPMjB5]Image[/url][/url]
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby Dukasaur on Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:57 pm

I like what you've done with the terts. I don't check back here often enough, but they are a LOT easier to read than they used to be! Very nice.

Not sure I like the funky font in the title and legend, but maybe it will grow on me over time.
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby CHAMPOS on Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:11 am

Dukasaur wrote:I like what you've done with the terts. I don't check back here often enough, but they are a LOT easier to read than they used to be! Very nice.

Not sure I like the funky font in the title and legend, but maybe it will grow on me over time.


YES I THINK I AGREE ON THE FUNKY FONT!!, CHANGED BELOW....
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby CHAMPOS on Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:12 am

VERSION 22 - TITLE AND LEGEND FONT CHANGED



Map Name: HOLYWARS 1250
Mapmaker(s):CHAMPOS
Number of Territories:44 (two start neutral, being Jerusalem and Ayyubid Caliphate, leaving 42 to be allocated, all regions start with 3 troops)
Special Features:An historically accurate map, no gaps, simple gameplay....
What Makes This Map Worthy of Being Made: Tried to be historically accurate, on the following basis: the kingdoms/empires at the time (with the areas they ruled/controlled) and then categorised by the rulers religion. There were a number of kingdoms/empires/religions coming together at the same time in 1250AD:
- the Roman Catholics had taken control over mainland Europe from the last Islamic Caliphate holding in Spain,
- the Islamic Caliphates were being attacked from the east by the Tengerian Mongols and from the west by the Roman Catholic crusades,
- the northern Eastern Orthodox territories were under Tengerian Mongol control,
- the Tengerian Mongols had been halted by their leadership changes and power struggles,
- the Indian Hindus were under attack from the Islamic Caliphates and Tengerian Mongols,
- the Oriental Orthodox were under attack from the Islamic Caliphates,
- Crusades continued to Jerusalem, with the following all heading in its direction: Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Islamic Caliphates, Jews and there is also evidence the Tengerian Mongols set foot in Palestine at the time...
Who will prevail...?

LATEST DRAFT

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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby CHAMPOS on Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:23 am

How and when do maps get taken forward to code?

Any further comments on game play etc...

Thanks
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby Dukasaur on Sat Sep 29, 2018 5:50 am

CHAMPOS wrote:How and when do maps get taken forward to code?

Any further comments on game play etc...

Thanks

Send a PM to iancanton for starters.
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby Symmetry on Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:35 pm

Dukasaur wrote:
CHAMPOS wrote:How and when do maps get taken forward to code?

Any further comments on game play etc...

Thanks

Send a PM to iancanton for starters.


Or to your local Rabbi, Imam, Priest, Minister...

Ah, just kidding- you know the religions you claim to represent on your map wouldn't like a game about religious war.
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby CHAMPOS on Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:16 am

Dukasaur wrote:
CHAMPOS wrote:How and when do maps get taken forward to code?

Any further comments on game play etc...

Thanks

Send a PM to iancanton for starters.



Thanks...

Latest draft below
v23
- some slight font tweaks
- change of bonus in the larger three religions to 7 (from 8). This is due to the fact that the game play strategies in taking these regions would likely involve one or two of the smaller regions and therefore the army advantage of going for the larger and difficult to hold regions would remain




Map Name: HOLYWARS 1250
Mapmaker(s):CHAMPOS
Number of Territories:44 (two start neutral, being Jerusalem and Ayyubid Caliphate, leaving 42 to be allocated, all regions start with 3 troops)
Special Features:An historically accurate map, no gaps, simple gameplay....
What Makes This Map Worthy of Being Made: Tried to be historically accurate, on the following basis: the kingdoms/empires at the time (with the areas they ruled/controlled) and then categorised by the rulers religion. There were a number of kingdoms/empires/religions coming together at the same time in 1250AD...

Image
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby Vlasov on Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:00 am

Did you send a message to IanCanton yet?

Regarding religions -- I knew about the varieties of Christianity (Roman, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox) as well as the Islamic caliphates and sultanates and such, along with Hinduism in south India.

I didn't know about the Mongols' shamanist (Tengerian) belief system, but I knew they tolerated the indigenous faiths of the lands and people that they conquered. Sometimes ConquerClub can be quite educational!

I would love to see this map advanced to the Beta stage.
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby CHAMPOS on Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:16 am

Thanks Vlasov, I have emailed IanCanton, hopefully we can move this forward to the next stage

The Mongols leaders were all following Tengerianism at this time. As the hordes splintered from this time they then adopt the local religions in time - assimilate or be conquered...
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby iancanton on Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:13 pm

although i've been slow to warm to the look of the map, it can be argued with good justification that the more recent updates have improved things so much that a move to the main foundry workshop is overdue. onward and upward!

Image

it's a good decision to keep only three sea crossings at this stage, to give shape to the playing area.

the bonuses and starting neutrals need a bit more thought. having both jerusalem and ayyubid as starting neutrals is overkill and creates a blockage in a key area, while reducing the +8 bonuses to +7 because they're difficult appears to make little sense. i suggest that alodia starts with n2 neutrals, as oriental orthodox is in a comparatively sheltered area and is likely to be one of the first bonuses taken.

ian. :)
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby Symmetry on Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:13 pm

Vlasov wrote:Did you send a message to IanCanton yet?

Regarding religions -- I knew about the varieties of Christianity (Roman, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox) as well as the Islamic caliphates and sultanates and such, along with Hinduism in south India.

I didn't know about the Mongols' shamanist (Tengerian) belief system, but I knew they tolerated the indigenous faiths of the lands and people that they conquered. Sometimes ConquerClub can be quite educational!

I would love to see this map advanced to the Beta stage.


I think ianCanton is already on this, mate. I don't know if he'll agree or disagree about the title.
the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby riskllama on Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:31 pm

Symmetry wrote:
Vlasov wrote:Did you send a message to IanCanton yet?

Regarding religions -- I knew about the varieties of Christianity (Roman, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox) as well as the Islamic caliphates and sultanates and such, along with Hinduism in south India.

I didn't know about the Mongols' shamanist (Tengerian) belief system, but I knew they tolerated the indigenous faiths of the lands and people that they conquered. Sometimes ConquerClub can be quite educational!

I would love to see this map advanced to the Beta stage.


I think ianCanton is already on this, mate. I don't know if he'll agree or disagree about the title.


pretty sure he'll be fine w/it, sym - you're the only one here who seems at all upset about it & you don't even play, so, who really gives two shits what you think. right? right.
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby Symmetry on Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:48 pm

riskllama wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Vlasov wrote:Did you send a message to IanCanton yet?

Regarding religions -- I knew about the varieties of Christianity (Roman, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox) as well as the Islamic caliphates and sultanates and such, along with Hinduism in south India.

I didn't know about the Mongols' shamanist (Tengerian) belief system, but I knew they tolerated the indigenous faiths of the lands and people that they conquered. Sometimes ConquerClub can be quite educational!

I would love to see this map advanced to the Beta stage.


I think ianCanton is already on this, mate. I don't know if he'll agree or disagree about the title.


pretty sure he'll be fine w/it, sym - you're the only one here who seems at all upset about it & you don't even play, so, who really gives two shits what you think. right? right.


Well, you and a few other folks have been pretty hot and bothered about it obviously, so that's kinda given.
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby riskllama on Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:28 pm

lol stfu, sym - you are literally the only person to be whinging about the map's name. you really need to just f*ck off and leave the guy alone, so he can finish his map in peace... :roll:
sorry, CHAMPOS - carry on...
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby CHAMPOS on Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:32 am

iancanton wrote:although i've been slow to warm to the look of the map, it can be argued with good justification that the more recent updates have improved things so much that a move to the main foundry workshop is overdue. onward and upward!

Image

it's a good decision to keep only three sea crossings at this stage, to give shape to the playing area.

the bonuses and starting neutrals need a bit more thought. having both jerusalem and ayyubid as starting neutrals is overkill and creates a blockage in a key area, while reducing the +8 bonuses to +7 because they're difficult appears to make little sense. i suggest that alodia starts with n2 neutrals, as oriental orthodox is in a comparatively sheltered area and is likely to be one of the first bonuses taken.

ian. :)



Thanks for this and the feedback.

Taking the gameplay comments in turn...

NEUTRAL TERRITORIES - The map has 44 territories and ideally we wanted 2 neutral territories to then have 42 allocated (being easily divisible). Jerusalem was certainly one territory we wanted to start neutral. We then thought the logical choice was the territory surrounding Jerusalem. I ham happy to just have one neutral territory (Jerusalem) or have the other neutral in Oriental Othodox somewhere... any other comments....

STARTING BONUSES - keen to keep all the smaller regions at 1 and then larger ones with the same bonus level. The question then becomes should the larger regions have 7 or 8. The map needs to reward those who go for and keep the larger regions (as they are difficult to hold). However strategically those who have the larger regions would likely have one or two of the smaller regions (makes holding the larger ones easier, so the bonus could be 1 or 2 higher). I am happy with 7 or 8... any once else have a view on 7 or 8 for the larger regions - vote now!

Keen to take this to the next level - any other comments on game play...

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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby Symmetry on Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:19 pm

riskllama wrote:lol stfu, sym - you are literally the only person to be whinging about the map's name. you really need to just f*ck off and leave the guy alone, so he can finish his map in peace... :roll:
sorry, CHAMPOS - carry on...


I'll leave it alone if people will leave me alone for opposing it. I think I've set out my arguments against weirdly polarising maps, and have outlined ways in which the map can be improved.

Largely, the mapmaker knows he's wrong, bit isn't compromising, of course. That's what happens when a few simple changes sound like unreasonable concessions.
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby CHAMPOS on Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:24 am

New Version
- decided to have Jerusalem and one other random territory starting neutral, following iancanton comments (not Jerusalem and neighbouring Ayyubid Caliphate)
- felt the bonuses of 7 were adequate for the larger regions, particularly as could combine with some smaller ones

ANY MORE COMMENTS ON GAMEPLAY APPRECIATED.....


Map Name: HOLYWARS 1250
Mapmaker(s):CHAMPOS
Number of Territories:44 (two start neutral, one being Jerusalem and one other at random, leaving 42 to be allocated, all regions start with 3 troops)
Special Features:An historically accurate map, no gaps, simple gameplay....
What Makes This Map Worthy of Being Made: Tried to be historically accurate, on the following basis: the kingdoms/empires at the time (with the areas they ruled/controlled) and then categorised by the rulers religion. There were a number of kingdoms/empires/religions coming together at the same time in 1250AD...
- the Roman Catholics had taken control over mainland Europe from the last Islamic Caliphate holding in Spain,
- the Islamic Caliphates were being attacked from the east by the Tengerian Mongols and from the west by the Roman Catholic crusades,
- the northern Eastern Orthodox territories were under Tengerian Mongol control,
- the Tengerian Mongols had been halted by their leadership changes and power struggles,
- the Indian Hindus were under attack from the Islamic Caliphates and Tengerian Mongols,
- the Oriental Orthodox were under attack from the Islamic Caliphates,
- Crusades continued to Jerusalem, with the following all heading in its direction: Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Islamic Caliphates, Jews and there is also evidence the Tengerian Mongols set foot in Palestine at the time...
Who will prevail...?

LATEST DRAFT

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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby riskllama on Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:52 am

looking good, CHAMPOS - but have you considered using a map image more suited to that period in history, rather than a satellite image?
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby CHAMPOS on Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:25 am

riskllama wrote:looking good, CHAMPOS - but have you considered using a map image more suited to that period in history, rather than a satellite image?



Thanks. I just liked the completeness of a satellite image with no gaps, showing all the contours, terrain, mountains etc that crusades and invasions needed to follow at the time. Most successful invasions were on land at the time, hence the importance of it.

Good to have something a little different, simple map, historically accurate...

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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby riskllama on Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:59 am

fair enough, i suppose - but i still think an old, "weathered" looking version would really add a nice element of authenticity to peoples' experience while playing it...*shrugs*
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby iancanton on Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:37 pm

CHAMPOS wrote:- decided to have Jerusalem and one other random territory starting neutral, following iancanton comments (not Jerusalem and neighbouring Ayyubid Caliphate)
- felt the bonuses of 7 were adequate for the larger regions, particularly as could combine with some smaller ones

other than jerusalem, one other random starting neutral is not good enough. this is because, in 1v1 games, the starting neutral has a 74% chance of being on one of the big three bonuses, when we need it to be on one of the 3-region bonuses.

even when one starting neutral is in oriental orthodox, there is a 7% chance of someone starting with the eastern orthodox bonus. we can eliminate this by using exactly 3 start positions, being bulgaria, serbia and empire of nicaea. in 2-player and 3-player games, each player will start with 14 regions.

do u dislike having to specify a starting neutral in oriental orthodox? if so, then another solution is to use exactly 3 start positions of one eastern orthodox region paired with one oriental orthodox region. u need to choose the pairings. in 2-player and 3-player games, each player will also start with 14 regions.

when u use exactly 3 start positions, games with 4 or more players are unaffected.

please put the map version number in the title to aid identification.

ian. :)
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