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Our Lady is burning

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Re: Our Lady is burning

Postby saxitoxin on Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:48 pm

Dukasaur wrote:Fires are not a political matter. It only takes one careless workman to set something on fire, and that has nothing to do with politics or economics. There have been a lot of horrific fires over the years in a lot of places, under ever imaginable political and economic scenario.


How can anyone say, with a straight face, that Notre Dame spent 800 years in the middle of a city subject to multiple air and artillery attacks using thousand-pound bombs and high explosive shells, gigantic revolutions, and millions of tourists parading through it and never had so much as a smoldering curtain but yesterday - out of the blue - a "careless workman" is able to accidentally burn the place to the ground with a dropped cigarette?

Sorry but this defies belief.

The careless workman is the cause of the fire. The cause of the destruction is the French government.

The only possible explanation is that some bare minimum of health and safety standards have been allowed to slip. Given that the French government, weekend after weekend, is unable to even enforce law and order in downtown Paris - one of the most basic functions of any government - the idea that it also can't enforce some minimum construction safety codes is a very reasonable assumption.

Dukasaur wrote:Why am I not surprised to see saxipuke taking cheap shots at France during this great tragedy?


Macron is the great tragedy. Notre Dame is just a symptom. Anyone who doesn't realize that will be surprised when the Louvre spontaneously collapses next month and a French nuclear plant melts down the month after. I won't be.

Time for the French to face the fact that the Élysée Palace is occupied by buffoons and amateurs whose government just let happen something that even medieval governments, run by people with the modern equivalent of a junior high education, were competent enough to prevent. Hugh Capet is rolling over in his grave.
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Re: Our Lady is burning

Postby saxitoxin on Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:32 pm

Even Reichschancellor Merkel realizes France is being run by morons and has sidelined them during her upcoming round of begging to Big Daddy to spare BMW from oblivion tariffs.

European Union countries on Monday overruled France and gave the green light for Brussels to open trade talks with Washington as soon as possible and defuse trans-Atlantic tensions.

French President Emmanuel Macron had insisted the US first sign back up to the Paris climate accord after Trump dumped the pact in 2017, infuriating Macron.

https://www.france24.com/en/20190415-eu ... r-business
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Re: Our Lady is burning

Postby betiko on Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:47 am

blah blah blah... saxi foed: mrswdk not foed.

It's really horrible to see something like that go... My 3yo daughter will have never seen it in person, and as a longtime Parisian I would never have thought that in my lifetime this buiding could go... I've heard some canadians say "hopefully it wasn't the eiffel tower"... I couldn't care less of the eiffel tower... we're talking about a building that has witnessed so much more.... It's kilometer 0 of France. You have a marker in front of it... Any distance in France is calculated from that point. If Paris is the center of France, then l'Ile de la Cité is the center of Paris... where the city started. If L'Ile de la Cité is the center of Paris, then Notre Dame is the center of l'ile de la Cité.
There were forrests of centenial oaks from the 13th century that have been burned forever in that roof, that is just so sad. I really hope the structure will not collapse... at least the most important seem to have been saved.
Actually, I think that if the Louvre burned down I would find it even more tragic given the number of art pieces in it, and given that it's the most important museum in the world.
Firefighters have managed to save as many artwork, icons and reliques from notre dame hopefully...
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Re: Our Lady is burning

Postby waauw on Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:08 pm

The Notre-Dame is already more popular than 3rd world charities. €1billion within 48 hours.
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Re: Our Lady is burning

Postby HitRed on Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:19 pm

Breaking news: Egypt considers burning the pyramids
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Re: Our Lady is burning

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:01 pm

waauw wrote:The Notre-Dame is already more popular than 3rd world charities. €1billion within 48 hours.


Ridiculous.

Everyone in Yemen is on the brink of starvation and people are donating money to a government with a $2 trillion annual budget for it to refurbish one of the buildings it owns.

I would gladly donate if a condition of the donation was that France transfer ownership of Notre Dame to some competent authority like the Archdiocese of Paris (blah) or UNESCO. As long as the amateur squad at Élysée is running the show there's no reason to believe it won't burn down again as soon as it's repaired. What a waste.

And I'm not targeting Paris. France is not the only Euro-Liberal government which is so utterly incompetent in basic governance that its national treasures are decaying and rotting. The German Navy's historic flagship, Gorch Foch, is so wrecked and ruined from neglect of basic maintenance they now believe it is irreparable and the German Navy has hilariously asked the US Coast Guard to return Gorch Foch's sister ship (now USCGC Eagle) which was seized as a war trophy in 1946. But Eagle is in perfect condition and well maintained ... why would they send it to Germany where, within a few years, it too will be junked up and rotting at dockside due to sheer incompetence?
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Re: Our Lady is burning

Postby mookiemcgee on Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:56 pm

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Re: Our Lady is burning

Postby DoomYoshi on Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:16 pm

Hitred has a point... Detroit is the Notre Dame of US&A.
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Re: Our Lady is burning

Postby waauw on Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:53 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
waauw wrote:The Notre-Dame is already more popular than 3rd world charities. €1billion within 48 hours.


Ridiculous.

Everyone in Yemen is on the brink of starvation and people are donating money to a government with a $2 trillion annual budget for it to refurbish one of the buildings it owns.


Actually, according to charity organizations in Yemen enough food was donated. It's just stacked up in warehouses and silo's along the coast without any way of getting it where it needs to be. The warring parties are blocking all the roads and sometimes even bombing these food depots.
Last edited by waauw on Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Our Lady is burning

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:55 pm

this was a good movie about when AoG was at Notre Dame

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Re: Our Lady is burning

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:03 pm

France announces they're going to replace the Notre Dame spire with a post-modern sculpture.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/france-ann ... 1555506233

Soooo glad I'm not donating money to help this train wreck pick-up speed.

Instead of a recreation Gothic pillar they'll do like the idiot Germans did with the Reichstag and slap some glass and metal monstrosity on top of it, back their way into a moronic rationalization of its higher meaning (it won't have any historic symbolism or connection to France, ND will be rededicated as a Monument to Inter-European Dialog or some ridiculous nonsense that was thrown together by mid-level bureaucrats during a 90 minute brainstorm session in a conference room in Brussels), and everyone will be "oh, gee, that's great!"

And then, in 40 years, when architectural styles change it will appear as attractive as this does to us today ...

Image

And people think I'm the bad guy for saying the French government are not good stewards of Notre Dame. :roll:

Sorry, betiko, Hugh Capet is on my side - not yours.

WHAT ... A ... SHIT SHOW
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Re: Our Lady is burning

Postby karel on Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:01 pm

meh shit cant last forever give it a week and they will move on to something else.....kind of sad how a bil dollars was raised so fast to rebuild a church while catholic priest raped kids and nothing really happens funny how that works
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Re: Our Lady is burning

Postby ConfederateSS on Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:40 am

Dukasaur wrote:Why am I not surprised to see saxipuke taking cheap shots at France during this great tragedy?

Fires are not a political matter. It only takes one careless workman to set something on fire, and that has nothing to do with politics or economics. There have been a lot of horrific fires over the years in a lot of places, under ever imaginable political and economic scenario.

-------Yes, very sad :( :( :( :( :( :( ......The Great Chicago Fire started when a cow knocked over a lamp... O:) ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)... O:)
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Re: Our Lady is burning

Postby DoomYoshi on Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:19 pm

So there's a global design challenge to replace the spire. I suggest this, but a bigger version:
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Re: Our Lady is burning

Postby HitRed on Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:23 pm

I suggest an eternal flame to honor to the French Government.

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Re: Our Lady is burning

Postby saxitoxin on Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:43 pm

The Inside Story About How the French Nation Destroyed Notre Dame

But the reality is that Notre-Dame had been neglected for too long and one French heritage expert believed the disaster was on the cards.

"What happened was bound to happen," said Jean-Michel Leniaud, president of the scientific council at the national Heritage Institute. "The lack of real upkeep and daily attention to such a major building is the cause of this catastrophe.

https://www.thelocal.fr/20190416/notre- ... d-too-long


After allowing Notre Dame to crumble into almost oblivion, a couple years ago the French finally got their act together and began begging for funds from the United States because Frenchmen don't have a "culture of giving"...

Paris sounded the alarm about the need to restore Notre-Dame several years ago, seeking donations notably from US patrons to help pay for the work, pledging to match up to four million euros donated to a heritage fund.

Through the Friends of Notre-Dame de Paris group, Paris's Roman Catholic diocese is reaching out to Americans "who have a culture of giving and are very attached to this monument", Andre Finot, a spokesman for the cathedral, said in 2017.

https://www.thelocal.fr/20190416/notre- ... d-too-long


Unfortunately, the French waited too long to ask for help and, this week, the place burned to a pile of ashes.

They wanted to have an historic cathedral they could all be proud of but wanted someone else to pay for it.
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Re: Our Lady is burning

Postby HitRed on Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:46 pm

France owns 80 Churches. If this is the Crown Jewel the others must be a wreck.

The 1905 law put an end to the government funding of religious groups by France and its political subdivisions. I get this.

At the same time, it declared that all religious buildings were property of the state and local governments. :?:

Seems like an odd way to Split the Church from the State.
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Re: Our Lady is burning

Postby TeeGee on Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:45 pm

Why was this building not insured?
And if it is, then why are people willing to pay for its repair? There should be no need, and the catholic church has more than enough funds without sucking individuals dry.
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Re: Our Lady is burning

Postby Dukasaur on Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:47 am

TeeGee wrote:Why was this building not insured?

Given its age and the astronomical replacement cost, the price tag that an insurance company would levy to cover the risk would be prohibitive.

And if it is, then why are people willing to pay for its repair?

I guess enough people have been touched by its beauty over the years that they don't want to see it go gentle into the night.

TeeGee wrote:There should be no need, and the catholic church has more than enough funds without sucking individuals dry.

Three answers. First, just as a point of order, Notre Dame is not owned by the Church. It's a historical landmark owned by the French government. That's a technicality and I'm just bringing it up for clarity.

Second, even for a very wealthy organization like the Church or the French government, this is a mammoth undertaking. We're not talking about throwing up an aluminum airplane hangar. These stone-and-timber cathedrals were the ultimate achievement of their era. There are carvings and intricate details everywhere, and there are techniques and materials that are no longer in common use. Duplicating this in the modern era is fantastically expensive.

Answer three is that it's pretty normal for governments to ask for private donations when rebuilding architectural landmarks. Although they tend to be owned by governments, they're never among the government's most urgent priorities. Culture and tourism are always the poor cousins begging for alms at the parliamentary budget table.

Just as a comparison, the U.S. has vastly more money than France, and yet, when the Washington Monument was damaged by an earthquake in 2011, the National Park Service refused to pay for repairs and waited for a private donor to step forward.

The great Lutheran cathedral in Dresden was smashed by Allied bombs in WWII. It sat in ruins for 60 years until enough private donors came forward to rebuild it.

In the 1970s, when New York City ran into financial problems, it announced that it would stop maintaining the facilities in Central Park unless private donors stepped up to share the cost. That arrangement continues to this day. New York's insolvencies are in the distant past, but half the maintenance of Central Park continues to be paid for by private philanthropists.
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Re: Our Lady is burning

Postby mookiemcgee on Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:15 am

TeeGee wrote:Why was this building not insured?
And if it is, then why are people willing to pay for its repair? There should be no need, and the catholic church has more than enough funds without sucking individuals dry.



The catholic church has more than enough funds BECAUSE its sucked individuals dry previously. I guess the only difference is now maybe it's sucking some money from non-catholics for a specific project which seems ok by me.
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Re: Our Lady is burning

Postby HitRed on Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:46 am

The Catholic Church doesn't force poverty but we seek those that are in it.
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Re: Our Lady is burning

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:02 pm

Update 1 (above) - Notre Dame was not adequately maintained by France, a precipitating cause of the fire; they planned to ask the U.S. for funds for maintenance but never got around to it

Update 2 - the French are mad donation money is going to rebuild Notre Dame instead of to them directly (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/dona ... protestors)

    Are we still really broken up for France?
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Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1)
Fog of War Achievement (2) Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (3) Cross-Map Achievement (2) Ratings Achievement (2)
General Contribution (1)

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