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Map of the Young Kingdoms II [Abandoned]

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Map of the Young Kingdoms II [Abandoned]

Postby x on Sat Sep 02, 2006 1:36 pm

Since the previous project was abandoned, and I think it would be an interesting idea to explore, here's a first draft Map of the Young Kingdoms, based on the works of Michael Moorcock.

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This map reflects a little bit the spirit of the books - Melnibone is an impenetrable fortress, and the only successful attack was launched be Elric from the Southern Continent. Melnibone used magic & their dragons to control the rest of the world, but had become so decadant, inbred, and complacent that they had very little military left. The island nations controlled much of the wealth through trade and had most of the power, which is why they connect to nearly every continent, but the continents do not connect to each other.

Mostly, I think these variations will make for interesting and different game play, which is half the reason you want to make a map in the first place.
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Postby sully800 on Sat Sep 02, 2006 2:04 pm

I liked it when HB posted this idea and it still looks good.

However I think you need more countries. I only count 25, which would make games with 5 or 6 people very difficult.

Also, should the unknown continent attach to Sorcerors Isle? If not I think the game play will suffer because the unknown continent and Melnibone each only have one entrance...and they each connect to the southern continent in adjacent countries which can be simplified to just Lormyr. So if you expand out from one of those continents you can eventually hold 2 continents with only one border. Thats too much of an impenetrable fortress.

Actually from there you could expand and control the south continent quite easily as well. That would give you a bonus of 9 men and only 2 border countries. Way too easy to take over the world for whoever starts with that position.
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Postby x on Sat Sep 02, 2006 2:10 pm

I think I counted 28. If I add 2 more that should divide really well between 2, 3, 5 and 6 players. How many countries do you think is "ideal?"

The Unknown Continent was supposed to be the Australia and the Southern Continent, Asia, but I see what you're saying about the Southern Continent connecting to two otherwise inaccessable nations.

Good point about the Southern Continent having a large number of men & few borders. Plus if the "Imryr can attack anywhere" idea doesn't get dropped, that would make you unstoppable.

I'm also still not sure how I feel about the island nations being the go betweens for all the continents.
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Postby x on Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:59 am

Image

There are more nations (a quick count gives me 37), and I believe the attack lines are fairer. It roughly corresponds to the Classic map with Africa & South America swapped. Europe (the blue islands) has been thinned to 5 nations instead of 7, eliminating a couple of the inner nations. I'm not cazy about this idea, and may put in two more islands.
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Postby sully800 on Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:20 am

I would not make it your goal to replicate the classic map. We already have one of those, so creating the same thing with a different skin isnt very worthwhile. Go for playability sure, but it doesn't have to match the classic format.
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Postby x on Sun Sep 03, 2006 1:24 pm

I figure that would be a decent starting point. I'm really just trying to match # of countries in an area vs. number of borders vs. other nations it borders. It won't be exactly the same as the classic map, but I did look to it for how to balance number of nations vs. number of borders vs. nations it borders. Plus I'm still strongly considering having melnibone be able to attack any country, which makes it a wild card - even your most interior nations aren't safe, but it's too weak to attack all continents simultaneously unless someone else is pulling the strings. That makes it a great prize, but since it only gets 2 armies per turn, you have to split your troops between protecting it & protecting whatever other nation you control.

The fact that it borders this map's Asia is even better - almost nobody ever controls all of Asia at once.
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Postby sully800 on Sun Sep 03, 2006 2:53 pm

If melnibone can attack any country than all the other continent conuses need to be higher because they would have way more borders.

And how would that work? It can only attack every country if you control all of Melnibone? I'm not sure that would work programming-wise (I believe the XML needs consistant borders). It's an interesting idea though.
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Postby DublinDoogey on Sun Sep 03, 2006 3:17 pm

sully800 wrote:If melnibone can attack any country than all the other continent conuses need to be higher because they would have way more borders.

And how would that work? It can only attack every country if you control all of Melnibone? I'm not sure that would work programming-wise (I believe the XML needs consistant borders). It's an interesting idea though.


as far as programming goes, you could give melniborne a one way border with every single country. A cool alternative would be to have it have a one way border with one country in each continent, but the country would be kept secret, then it'd be like a sneak attack. people'll figure it out after a while but there's always new people comin too
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Postby sully800 on Sun Sep 03, 2006 4:35 pm

but melnibone is a continent, not a country. So how would you only get these one way borders once you own the continent?
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Postby DublinDoogey on Sun Sep 03, 2006 4:46 pm

sully800 wrote:but melnibone is a continent, not a country. So how would you only get these one way borders once you own the continent?


true, i was thinking that melnibone was the big island in that continent
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Postby x on Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:16 pm

It's Imryr, the main island, that has that ability, and yes it would be a one way border with every country.

I'd thought, for a minute, about keeping the locations secret, but people would learn after playing the map once. I'd also considered making it just every ocean-facing country explaining it as their superior ships, but I like the idea that every national interior is vulnerable and nobody's army can keep the entire nation safe.

Perhaps as a concession each nation would also have a single one-way border with Melnibone's southern island so that the southern continent wouldn't get the tremendous advantage alone?
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Postby DublinDoogey on Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:24 pm

x wrote:It's Imryr, the main island, that has that ability, and yes it would be a one way border with every country.

I'd thought, for a minute, about keeping the locations secret, but people would learn after playing the map once.


I like this best. Sure, people'll learn it, but people are also very forgetful, plus new people will come in all time who havnt played the map yet. If you're worried about fairness, you could put a note saying "watch out for suprise attacks" or something simple and vague like that.
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Postby x on Sun Sep 03, 2006 7:08 pm

IDK, then it's like any other map, but with a few lines that haven't been drawn in. It would be nice if you could make it random, or make a few maps so only the person who creates the game knows which is which, but that's really going overboard. Maybe when I make my own site (yeah right). Besides, with the /maps being public, you can easily load up the XML file and check for yourself.

Any other scenario I come up with (secret attack lines, etc.) just strikes me as being any other map "but with secret attack lines."

Maybe "Can attack any port" i.e. can attack any continent where it connects to any other continent (on any black line). This way you don't have to worry about attacks on the interior of your country and Imryr still has to be strong enough to take that already-fortified city, but it can go to any continent it wants, not just the two or three others that every other continent is connected to.
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Postby AndyDufresne on Sun Sep 03, 2006 8:04 pm

Do you have a working image of your own? I'd sure like to see one. I work a little better when I've got something to latch onto and analyze.

As for the country that can attack anywhere, it's a unique idea, but I'm not sure a very good one. I think it would give extreme power, perhaps too much.

One thing you could look into, perhaps make it a round map, meaning you can attack from kamchatka to alaska. Is that possible with the Young Kingdoms? I do not know. Or perhaps look into some variant of attacking from the four corners of the map? If I knew more about the background of the Young Kingdoms, it might be easier. Right now, all it is, is a name.


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Postby x on Mon Sep 04, 2006 1:45 am

The image I'm working from is the first one linked to in the other thread.

Image

The "world" is just a small area of the globe, about the size of Europe I believe, and all the rest is considered unknown. It's not supposed to wrap around, and I think I've managed to make it somewhat balanced without having to. Each continent "borders" typically three other continents in a number of areas equal to about half it's total areas.

If the consensus is "it makes the country too powerful" then I guess I could switch to "can attack any port" - where a port is currently any nation where a line connects to it. But, this is what beta testing is for... ;)

Here's the latest revision.

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Postby x on Mon Sep 04, 2006 1:53 am

Instead of "wrapping around" like the classic map, it circles the borders. Same net effect - you get a circle.

My current gripes are:

* Some nation are too small, while others are too big, adding in country names & a place for the numbers might not be easy, especially on the small map.
* I want to ensure troop movement through each continent is consistent/interesting/challenging/fair.
* The blue islands consist almost entirely of borders.
* The only way to attack Melnibone is through the most powerful nation... This may not be a bad thing because almost nobody ever manages to hold the classic map Asia, but if you do, this is a terribly powerful combo, and capturing Melnibone from the red continent could be the deciding factor in being able to control it. So I might split off those tree nations west of the mountains into an independant nation.
* It feels a little cluttered with all those islands.
* There's no good place to put a legend, except off-map.
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Postby hendy on Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:55 am

I like it! :wink:
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Postby HighBorn on Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:27 am

Wonderful work X and yes i love to see it :).. good luck i like seeing someone knowlagable in the book seris to take it over it is one of my all time fav reads ;)
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Postby reverend_kyle on Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:05 am

I liked the one with less countriesz.
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