Conquer Club

Well, his boyfriend said it would be more of a turn-on that way.

-Neil Hamburger

Maybe against my better judgment, I'll nibble at the bait here. But first, did you start the thread so you could make that joke, or was the joke an afterthought, and there's actually a chance for serious discussion here? 'Cause if it's #1, I'll save both you and me our time.

daddy1gringo wrote:Maybe against my better judgment, I'll nibble at the bait here. But first, did you start the thread so you could make that joke, or was the joke an afterthought, and there's actually a chance for serious discussion here? 'Cause if it's #1, I'll save both you and me our time.

It was originally inspired by the ""Why was the "is god homosexual" thread locked?""

It's also kind of a funny joke that could turn into some serious discussion....why are things that are considered to be destructive behaviors by some so appealing to others? Is this by design? Is "sin" supposed to feel good?

demonfork wrote: Is "sin" supposed to feel good?

For a season.

But the scriptures also say that the wages of sin are death. (If I'm remembering sunday school properly)

This is why people so often think that AIDS is a "gay disease".

But I tend to think that AIDS is just a natural consequence to being promiscuous. The gay part is ancillary to the lots of boning part.

But that's me. I don't think being gay is a sin. Banging lots of dudes in a meth fueled bath house fever pitch of self-loathing and misdirected hatred for one's father... That's probably a sin. Possibly a few, in fact.


Of course, all of this is open to interpretation. I tend to think of the word "sin" as roughly synonymous with "a behavior that can have negative consequences". Like, lots of rawdog buttsecks. Or shooting dope. Or drinking and driving. Or murdering someone because their kid keeps letting their wiffle ball get hit into your yard and you're just sick of it goddamit and you can't fucking take it anymore and how do you think he'd like to have that wiffle ball shoved down his throat?

I'm only partial to the last of those...

Hi, Sorry It took so long to get back on this, I’ve been really busy.

First, a little background on a Biblical Christian view of sexuality in general. Hopefully this will challenge some prejudices and presuppositions that can color the whole issue. Here’s an analogy which I think I used in another thread so forgive me if you’ve heard it before.

I have one good suit. Now, I have other dress slacks, ties and dress shirts, which I use when I substitute teach, or when I used to work as an optician, but I don’t wear my one good suit in those places. I certainly don’t wear it when mowing the lawn, or just sitting around the house. My one good suit I save for special occasions, like weddings, funerals, and job interviews, which can be like weddings but lately have been more like funerals.

So, since I restrict the times when I will wear my suit, does that mean that I think less of it than of my other clothes? No. I will only use it in the special circumstances for which it is meant, because I value it more highly.

So it’s not that God says that sex is only for certain circumstances because it’s bad, or dirty, or because He has a problem with people having fun. It’s because it’s so awesome in the context for which He created it, but abusing it can ruin it.

That brings us to the subject of the thread. A little more background.

A lot of people think that the Bible says that man, as opposed to woman, was created in God’s image, but if you look at the whole thing in context a different story emerges. God created “Adam” in His image, and said it was very good. Then He said it is NOT good for man to be alone; one aspect of God was missing from this image of Him: relationship. He split “Adam” into male and female, same, but different, embodying different aspects of His nature, and brought them back together again. The resulting unity in love is a more perfect image of God. There is ecstasy of joy; there is the bringing forth of life. Two men or two women isn’t the same thing. It’s like a dance with two left feet.

Sex is a part of the whole package. It’s part of what binds the two together. The two bodies are obviously joined, but something deep happens in the heart, the soul and the spirit as well. We are designed that way. So sex is meant to be a sort of a parable or object lesson to communicate deep things about God, and it also affects deep things within us. Pardon both the crudity and the pun, but you don’t f*** around with that.

God’s laws against homosexuality, or any promiscuity, are for your protection. Engaging in them is using something good, but very powerful, in a way that it's not designed for. Electricity is good, but don't grab a hairpin and plug it into the wall socket. A car is good, but don't drive it on the wrong side of the highway. An adjustible wrench is good, but don't try to use it for a hammer. The physical consequences are obvious: AIDS and other STD’s, but there are consequences in the soul and spirit as well. Those are not as obvious, but just as destructive.

You’ve probably heard some people saying that AIDS is God’s punishment for homosexuals, and others answer that it’s not their fault, they are innocent victims. I say “neither”. Another analogy.

If I hold a pen between my fingers at chest-level and open my fingers, the pen will obey the law of gravitation and fall to the floor. Let’s say the pen thinks “I am a modern, free-thinking pen and I don’t like the law of gravity, so when the gringo opens his fingers, I’m going to stay up in the air”. Open fingers – pen drops to floor. Was God angry with the pen? Was he punishing it? No, it was just experiencing the consequences of the laws of nature.

I’ll stop there for now. I hope this helps.

I'm going to try only having sex at weddings, funerals and job interviews like you, from now on.
I may have to attend a few strangers' funerals, or maybe start a killing spree though.

I may be wrong about this, but pursuant to Catholic Church teachings, homosexuality is not a sin; rather, engaging in the act of homosexual sex is a sin.

pimpdave wrote:

demonfork wrote: Is "sin" supposed to feel good?

For a season.

But the scriptures also say that the wages of sin are death. (If I'm remembering sunday school properly)

This is why people so often think that AIDS is a "gay disease".

But I tend to think that AIDS is just a natural consequence to being promiscuous. The gay part is ancillary to the lots of boning part.

A natural consequence of being promiscuous AND eating monkeys that carry the disease.

thegreekdog wrote:I may be wrong about this, but pursuant to Catholic Church teachings, homosexuality is not a sin; rather, engaging in the act of homosexual sex is a sin.

This is true for Christianity in general. I am sure there are some who consider even just being homosexual a sin, but they are few and the rest of us are sure the Bible is only talking about actions (which we can control), not feelings (which we cannot always control).

Why are the actions sinful? From the outset, whether we understand, agree or even like a prohibition is irrelevant to Christians, Jews. Either it is in the Bible and God says it or it is not. That is the only question. That said, of course we can guess.

I see two reasons. One, if everyone were homosexual, it would not do well for humanities' existance. But I would suggest that a deeper reason is that men and women are truly different in more ways than our physical structure. Through marriage, we are traditionally united. In homosexuality, it is far too easy to simply dismiss the other gender as a group of "aliens" who just are not understood.

Has this changed? Some say yes, some no. Gender roles, in general, have changed phenomenally. The way we relate others has changed and our view on many things has changed. The old argument that sex is just for having children was fairly well dismissed years ago, in the context of childless couples can still be married. Even procreation is not limited to heterosexuals.

Why did Santa Clause make reindeer fly?

Why does the Easter Bunny lay eggs?

Who shot J.R.?

thegreekdog wrote:I may be wrong about this, but pursuant to Catholic Church teachings, homosexuality is not a sin; rather, engaging in the act of homosexual sex is a sin.

As is often the case, I propose a whole different way of looking at it. What everyone has said so far, as is usually the case in these discussions, presupposes that some people just "are" homosexual, they are born that way. That is far from proven. I personally know several people, and know of many more, who used to be homosexual and are not anymore. What we are sexually attracted to or aroused by is partly conditioned.

Usually I would say, as most evangelicals do, that we are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners. But in this case, I think "being a homosexual" is not the sin, but just a result of it. God wouldn't make you something and then blame you for being what He made you.

thegreekdog wrote:I may be wrong about this, but pursuant to Catholic Church teachings, homosexuality is not a sin; rather, engaging in the act of homosexual sex is a sin.

That would depend on the congregation and the Priest/Bishop giving the Mass. Not I saying I agree one way or another, but that is the way it is.

I think a better questions is "What was the motivation behind men writing that God considers homosexuality a sin?"

So much of the Bible was written to satisfy the ulterior motives of men.

TheProwler wrote:So much of the Bible was written to satisfy the ulterior motives of men.

So much of your face was written by the ulterior motives of men.


HAHA

pimpdave wrote:

TheProwler wrote:So much of the Bible was written to satisfy the ulterior motives of men.

So much of your face was written by the ulterior motives of men.


HAHA

You need a new hobby.

TheProwler wrote:I think a better questions is "What was the motivation behind men writing that God considers homosexuality a sin?"

So much of the Bible was written to satisfy the ulterior motives of men.

"I don't like the way he looks at my ass, he must be a sinner."

Some people are homosexual. That is okay. There is no sin. Free yourself from guilt. Be good people. Accept others.

daddy1gringo wrote:

thegreekdog wrote:I may be wrong about this, but pursuant to Catholic Church teachings, homosexuality is not a sin; rather, engaging in the act of homosexual sex is a sin.

As is often the case, I propose a whole different way of looking at it. What everyone has said so far, as is usually the case in these discussions, presupposes that some people just "are" homosexual, they are born that way. That is far from proven. I personally know several people, and know of many more, who used to be homosexual and are not anymore. What we are sexually attracted to or aroused by is partly conditioned.

Usually I would say, as most evangelicals do, that we are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners. But in this case, I think "being a homosexual" is not the sin, but just a result of it. God wouldn't make you something and then blame you for being what He made you.

The basic problem is that kids raised by homosexual parents are no more likely to be homosexual than those born to heterosexual parents. The only thing that changes is that they tend to have fewer problems with being homosexual, which is to be expected.

TheProwler wrote:

pimpdave wrote:

TheProwler wrote:So much of the Bible was written to satisfy the ulterior motives of men.

So much of your face was written by the ulterior motives of men.


HAHA

You need a new hobby.

My ten year old son says stuff like pimpdave does... I think that my son is immature in some ways. Please tell me that pimp dave is younger than 10.

daddy1gringo wrote: God wouldn't make you something and then blame you for being what He made you.

He does that all the time.

He did it to Satan, surely?

captain.crazy wrote:

TheProwler wrote:

pimpdave wrote:

TheProwler wrote:So much of the Bible was written to satisfy the ulterior motives of men.

So much of your face was written by the ulterior motives of men.


HAHA

You need a new hobby.

My ten year old son says stuff like pimpdave does... I think that my son is immature in some ways. Please tell me that pimp dave is younger than 10.

Looks like pimp and you son are wise in the same ways.

jonesthecurl wrote:He did it to Satan, surely?

Don't call me Shirley!!

OK, Nancy.