Why the censorship?

[DiM]

why was this map locked?

i think it has the potential to make for an interesting idea.

so what if it is about bin laden? if the map is made tasteful then it's fine by me. we have dozens of maps inspired by real events that led to the death of millions of people and yet nobody complained so far.

so i say let that map live. if the community is bothered by the theme then let the community speak. whenever people had concerns about a map they voiced their opinion and changed/stopped the map. let the same happen here too. don't just come in and lock it.


thanks.

[koontz1973]

I have no idea why you find this strange. I was the first to say no bloody way.

Why, because it is about the death of a prominent Muslim, does not matter if you agree or disagree with his religion, methods of war or what have you, just by having his name on a map will either make a lot (if not all) of Americans angry, but you will also make the site open to attack by Muslims who view this man as a hero. Remember the outrage caused by some innocent cartons published a while ago in Europe.

Also, the site (I believe) has a policy of not having anything to close to the event incase of this. 9/11 was only a few short years ago and the wars caused by this are still going on. Causing suffering to people everyday. And no, I am not a bleeding heart liberal.

Saying that, if this map was submitted again, turned up side down and called Hitler's Bunker, it might work just as well. I mean, who doesn't like killing a few Nazis.

It would be nice also to see what we could get away with. I know that the swastika is banned even with WW2 maps.

[gimil]

Saying that, if this map was submitted again, turned up side down and called Hitler's Bunker, it might work just as well. I mean, who doesn't like killing a few Nazis.

Click image to enlarge.

In all seriousness though. The legacy of this man is still all to apparent and fresh. I personally think it is of bad taste at this point in history and think it is best left alone is the foundry for the time being.

The 10th anniversary of 9/11 has just passed and for many (like myself) 7/7 is a reminder that the current 'history in the making' can easily effect any of us.

[thenobodies80]

It was locked because have fun on a man death (without considering if you find it a good or an evil man) is really bad taste.
It's true we have WWII maps, but it's different, they don't have a a clear reference to a mission done to kill someone. It's war, we know it happens.
But there must be line we don't have to pass, the line in which the general concept of war (that here we call global domination), become something focused on a single person death. I remember that a couple of years ago someone posted a "kill lack map".

But just for the sake of giving a more depth answer, if you will post a map in which your objective is something like: "kill hitler to win the game"...then I'll bin and lock it in the same way. the same if the person is saddam, etc etc

It's no politc or the like, just there's no fun if you play with people life. And CC must stay fun, not bloody.

Nobodies

[koontz1973]

But just for the sake of giving a more depth answer, if you will post a map in which your objective is something like: "kill hitler to win the game"...then I'll bin and lock it in the same way. the same if the person is saddam, etc etc

It's no politc or the like, just there's no fun if you play with people life. And CC must stay fun, not bloody.

Nobodies

With that as an objective it is not OK, but if someone set a map set in Hitler's Bunker, that would be OK then?

[Seamus76]

Thank you all for the debate either way. I hope everyone understands that I in no way meant, or intended for there to be any offense to anyone, on any level, especially regarding religious beliefs. As a patriotic American, and a Jew who was Bar Mitzvah in Israel, on the top of Masada, I am sensitive to the issues and only thought the idea was original, had an workable layout, and was interesting enough to put it out to the community. It was my mistake for not looking at it from both sides, and if anyone has been offended I apologize.

Since the map was supposed to be more about the American Heroes who risked their lives in this amazing operation, I should have started it as something like "Seal Team 6 - Our Finest Hour", and used generic "terrorists" instead, but even then it may have been "too soon" for something like this.

But there must be line we don't have to pass, the line in which the general concept of war (that here we call global domination), become something focused on a single person death.

This does help, and I understand the rational. My question now, where exactly is that line, and does this also relate to the map I'm working on "Battle of the Little Bighorn", which is also called Custer's Last Stand, and in which Custer and his armies were slaughtered? And even though I live in the Deep South, I personally I think he got what he deserved, but I'm sure there are people on the other side of the fence who consider him a hero. Should I abandon that one as well?

[gimil]

This does help, and I understand the rational. My question now, where exactly is that line, and does this also relate to the map I'm working on "Battle of the Little Bighorn", which is also called Custer's Last Stand, and in which Custer and his armies were slaughtered? And even though I live in the Deep South, I personally I think he got what he deserved, but I'm sure there are people on the other side of the fence who consider him a hero. Should I abandon that one as well?

We are a creative bunch of people in the foundry, what we do is subjective. This makes it hard to physically 'draw the line' on issues like this. Alot of the time we have to go with our gut instinct on issues like this one and make the hard decisions. Don't worry seamus, no one thinks you did anything bad or wrong, you just pushed the line, and this time it didn't pay off

[Flapcake]

I think it's a healthy discussion you've started, it gives something to think about and the fine line moves with time, a very nice map along in which is a little of Caesar's death, he was also loved and hated, (I know that Caesar means emperor, but I associate the name with Gaius julius caesar)

[koontz1973]

The difference between Caesar's death and BLLS is history. One is very old while I can still remember the pictures released of the other.

As for the battle of Custer's last stand, that falls into the history category so it should be good to go. New World deals with the colonization of the Americas by European powers.

[DiM]

I know that the swastika is banned even with WW2 maps.

no it's not. we have maps with the swastika on them and if anybody is bothered by that, then all i can say is that person is a moron. swastika was used by the nazi germany and if you want to make a historically accurate map then using it is a must. that doesn't make the map maker racist, a nazi or anything else.

[koontz1973]

I know that the swastika is banned even with WW2 maps.

no it's not. we have maps with the swastika on them and if anybody is bothered by that, then all i can say is that person is a moron. swastika was used by the nazi germany and if you want to make a historically accurate map then using it is a must. that doesn't make the map maker racist, a nazi or anything else.

It was banned a while ago, it has not been enforced onto maps that already have it. natty_dread had a thread about this a while ago.
viewtopic.php?f=127&t=143250
I also think cairnswk tried to have one on Dass Schloss but got told to put the eagle in instead (might be wrong on this one).

[DiM]

there are tons of maps that deal with potentially sensitive stuff and yet nobody complained.

bamboo jack is about the deaths of thousands of war prisoners.
supermax prison riot is filled with racism and basically tells the players to unite race/political view based gangs (blacks, latinos, nazis) and kill other races.
we have a map of a religious crusade were thousands of innocent people were killed, women were raped and all because their religion was different.
there's also the battle of iraq featuring al-qaeda
we have ww1 and ww2, we have the american civil war, the battle of the golden spurs, of actium, of trafalgar and all sorts of map based on mindless killings.
pearl harbour, peloponnesian war, poison rome etc.

lots and lots of maps with controversial themes. why are those ok and this one isn't?

you say muslims will protest because the goal of the map is to kill bin laden...
why didn't the germans protest when d-day map was quenched. after all there surely are a lot of people who lost somebody dear on that day. heck even the americans could have expressed their concerns.

in my opinion this is absolutely silly. we're all aware of the grief produced by 9/11 but censorship isn't the answer.
as i said before, if this them truly is as disturbing as some claim it to be then the community will voice this and the map won't progress.

i don't want a foundry where 1 person gets to decide what map is allowed and what isn't. i want a foundry where we all get a say in this.

[DiM]

I know that the swastika is banned even with WW2 maps.

no it's not. we have maps with the swastika on them and if anybody is bothered by that, then all i can say is that person is a moron. swastika was used by the nazi germany and if you want to make a historically accurate map then using it is a must. that doesn't make the map maker racist, a nazi or anything else.

It was banned a while ago, it has not been enforced onto maps that already have it. natty_dread had a thread about this a while ago.
viewtopic.php?f=127&t=143250
I also think cairnswk tried to have one on Dass Schloss but got told to put the eagle in instead (might be wrong on this one).

that's absolutely stupid idiotic and moronic, all at the same time
the use of a historically accurate symbol in the context of a historically accurate map is absolutely understandable.

let's ban all things evil on maps and make this the land of fairy princesses and ponies.
i say remove the bunkers from d-day and replace them with candy stands, rename poison rome to cookie rome and the objective is to bring the sweetest cookie to caesar, and on the third crusade map the europeans aren't actually planning to conquer jerusalem and slay everybody, they're just going trick or treating dressed as knights

also all maps must have at least 25% pink and feature at least 2 of the following: candy/cookies/ponies/princesses/fairies

[Victor Sullivan]

I smell genius, DiM...

-Sully

[thenobodies80]

there are tons of maps that deal with potentially sensitive stuff and yet nobody complained.

bamboo jack is about the deaths of thousands of war prisoners.
supermax prison riot is filled with racism and basically tells the players to unite race/political view based gangs (blacks, latinos, nazis) and kill other races.
we have a map of a religious crusade were thousands of innocent people were killed, women were raped and all because their religion was different.
there's also the battle of iraq featuring al-qaeda
we have ww1 and ww2, we have the american civil war, the battle of the golden spurs, of actium, of trafalgar and all sorts of map based on mindless killings.
pearl harbour, peloponnesian war, poison rome etc.

lots and lots of maps with controversial themes. why are those ok and this one isn't?

Read my previous post

i don't want a foundry where 1 person gets to decide what map is allowed and what isn't. i want a foundry where we all get a say in this.

I'm sorry, not everything is like you want DiM. The difference is the other people don't make all the mess you do when something doesn't work in the way you think it should work.
Sorry if the concept of not allowing a map that "celebrate" the death of a X man is hard to understand for you...I don't know what to say....like I said earlier is not because the map is about Bin Laden. Imo that map can be developed, but not in that way.
And if you look at the map topic, where there's written the edit reason, you can see that also the mapmaker asked for the removal.
So now we're 5 "against" 1, this means actually you're the "1 person" that wants to decide.

the use of a historically accurate symbol in the context of a historically accurate map is absolutely understandable.

Now, this is the 1000 time I have to explain this thing.
I complitely agree with you. Symbols have only the meaning you want to give to them, so they must be contextualized.
But this rule comes from his majesty Lackattack, so whether you like it or not it is a site rule: "No swastika symbols are allowed".

[cairnswk]

On this one, i have to agree with Dim.
I would have preferred to see the map before it was designated a no-go zone, and then be allowed to have a democratic say in whether it proceeded or not.
Having been the object of a couple of change-it campaigns, i think possibly the foundry could have guided Seamus76 to a better place so that at leasts he could keep the map going rather than have an autocratic decision made.

[DiM]

how in the world did you reach the conclusion that that map was celebrating the death of bin laden?
it was merely a map about a tactical military mission.

does pearl harbour celebrate the death of all the japanese and americans that died that day? no, it's about a tactical military mission.
same for d-day or iwo jima or any other military map that we have.

no map celebrates death? no map is made with the purpose of mocking the dead or insulting the living.
all maps are made in good faith and good taste. those that aren't simply do not make it. the community stops them.
there's no need for you to come and put a stop to it just because you can.
if somebody is offended by the theme of a map he comes and says so. he argues and brings valid points and if he has the support of the community he wins the debate and the map either changes or gets abandoned. that's how the foundry has worked in the past and that's how it should remain.

once you step on the path of censorship there's no telling what will happen. today you don't like bin laden theme, tomorrow you don't like something else and pretty soon all goes to hell.

so i don't even care that seamus asked for the removal of the map the point is that map should have been let to live/die on its own you should not have put a stop to it unless that was the general consensus.


at some point i wanted to make a map about the kennedy assassination. it was a really interesting gameplay idea with several conspiracy theories transformed into multiple objectives. the action took place on several separate planes and for it's time it was something really really new. problem was i didn't have enough time and could not finish all the research i needed.
i guess you would consider that idea as the celebration of jfk's death and lock the thread in a second, right? pfff...

[Seamus76]

I thought maybe I would put up the initial draft for those who didn't get a chance to see it. Personally I never thought the map was offensive, and did not expect the reaction it received. I did respect the decision, but at the same time questioned it in a PM.

Click image to enlarge.

Although I did ask for the map to be removed, it was under the impression that it would be removed quickly anyway, and based on the harsh initial comments I didn't want to be the Solomon Rushdie of the Foundry. I would like to put it back up for comment, or possibly a vote even to see what more people think.

by cairnswk
On this one, i have to agree with Dim.
I would have preferred to see the map before it was designated a no-go zone, and then be allowed to have a democratic say in whether it proceeded or not.
Having been the object of a couple of change-it campaigns, i think possibly the foundry could have guided Seamus76 to a better place so that at least he could keep the map going rather than have an autocratic decision made.

And I do agree with DiM and Cairns that the map should not have been locked, and could have been properly developed by the foundry into a workable idea, or to have been killed by comments. I think the map itself has no offensive qualities, and maybe it was the way i initially worded my gameplay idea that made it seem offensive, which again could have been worked out and changed, etc.

[koontz1973]

Although I did ask for the map to be removed, it was under the impression that it would be removed quickly anyway, and based on the harsh initial comments I didn't want to be the Solomon Rushdie of the Foundry. I would like to put it back up for comment, or possibly a vote even to see what more people think.

Seamus, I liked the map, but my initial comment was solely based on the fact that if this map as it was, was not stopped fast then it would of caused outrage. DiM and cairnswk and myself included may not like the it, but the fact remains that this would of offended many many people. Do you really want to be the Jyllands-Posten or Salman Rushdie of the foundry.

I liked the idea and the game play can be changed to make a decent map, but the title and story will leave you and the site open for hate. thenobodies80 said it crossed a line which he draws (death of a single person). Right or wrong, I agree with him.

Supermax Prison Riot is filled with racism and basically tells the players to unite race/political view based gangs (Blacks, Latino, Nazis) and kill other races.

It is not as the game play does not say kill a certain race. It says to unite the gangs. Now if the goal was to kill all of the Black Guerilla family, I am sure it would not of been allowed as well.

Bamboo Jack is about the deaths of thousands of war prisoners.

But no where on the map does it say that you need to kill thousands of prisoners.
And all of the others that were mentioned, time has given us a chance to reflect and not offend. With the Swastika, I would love to be able to use it on a map and have map makers being able to use it, but this is a symbol that is still in use today that causes pain and suffering.

[greenoaks]

i am not a muslim but found the last sentance offensive.

[MarshalNey]

I'm not censorship person myself, and the less the better as far as creativity goes.

However, this site is privately owned, and owners call the shots. Also, the owner bears the responsibility and fallout of anything that goes on in his site. While the owner makes use of volunteers, and there should be some quid pro quo to the community in light of this (i.e., some authority should be shared), ultimately Lack has to live with what happens to a much more stark degree than any volunteer does. A volunteer can bail on the site whenever he or she desires, leaving in his wake all kinds of trouble.

This map is trouble, in my opinion. Censorship is also trouble, in my opinion. The former puts the site in trouble, the latter puts relations with mapmakers in trouble. As Foundry Foreman, nobodies chose to put the site's interest above the mapmakers', and as much as it pains me to say it... that is his job. He did right by his duty as foreman.

DiM makes a good (if unnecessarily noisy) point about censorship- it shouldn't be used casually, if at all. So perhaps the method was too heavy-handed, when a PM asking Seamus to withdraw the map would have done just as well.

But the phrase at the end of the map flavor text- "... one of the world's most notorious terrorists lay dead."-was inflammatory enough to admirers of bin Laden to merit nobodies' shortcut I think. We have no modern military heroes in America that come to my mind, but imagine being a revolutionary in 1776, and the British sent a death squad after George Washington and killed him. And then made a board game that ended with the same snippet of flavor text. In the eyes of patrotic British citizens, Washington was a good approximation of a terrorist, even if the comparision breaks down when looking at details.

All that said, there is a balance of trust to be maintained between the owner and the community. If censorship is used as a method of bullying or enforcing personal tastes, then that trust becomes strained. In this case, I feel that there were some factors that merited the response from the Foundry, and would defend it as being in the best interests of the site. After all, the monetary business of the site keeps the Foundry open. Although some may feel that information is free on the Internet, computers, servers and electricity actually do consume resources. Trying to make out like it is free is the same as advocating theft.

Finally (and this is the end of my scattered thoughts) the one thing that I most definitely dislike about the lock of the thread was the apparent secrecy. As someone else mentioned (probably DiM) why strip the map image? I think censure of the map would have been sufficient to mollify anyone offended by it, and it would have let concerned mapmakers know why a map was being locked. How else are mapmakers to know where the line exists?

I don't bring this last point up to open up Nobodies to having darts thrown his way- it's easy to criticize when one doesn't have to bear responsibility- and as I said before I think he did his duty as he ought to have done it. I just bring it up so that threads like this aren't needed to shed light on the whole matter.

-- Marshal Ney

[thenobodies80]

Finally the above mess is becoming a discussion.
Why the image was stripped?

In any case, I have no destroyed the map file, so Seamus76 can post it again. Like MN said that was the best and more appropriate action I had to take in that moment.
It was friday morning when I saw the map, I was at work. What I did is what I was able to do in that moment and what I HAD to do in that moment.
My fault was to not have the time to give to him a more thoughtful reason about the lock in that moment, but like I've said in other occasion, this is not the job that give me the bread to live so I have also my RL priorities. What I want to make clear is that I didn't stripped the image from the topic before I received the go ahead from the mapmaker but ONLY AFTER he said to me to do it.

Anyways, Saemus76 has already sent to me a PM about that map only after few minutes I locked the topic...my quick answer to him wasn't a great reply, but today I have the freetime to give him a thoughtful answer and find a way to transform that image in something workable.
It's not that the map can't be done, it's that it can't be done in that way.

So please, the next time, before putting me under the guillottine and referring to the Foundry Foreman as a dictator, please think about the fact that CC is 24/7 and probably my time doesn't match always with your time; gimme the time to finish the work I've started. Then, when it's done, if you don't like it, feel free to push the trigger and cut my head.
The time will show you that I'm one of the most democratic and free minded guy you've ever "met".

Your "evil" Foundry Foreman,
Nobodies

[koontz1973]

thenobodies80, I think what you did was as you say, with the time you had, the best way forward. The last thing I wanted when I posted first in the thread was to upset anyone, especially Seamus as we are starting to become friends. I only posted what I did so as the site we all love does not become in any way involved with major problems.

Saying that, a line has been drawn and it would be nice to hear what would you consider crossing it.

Assassination of JFK (DiM's idea for a map)
Using the KKK in southern America.
Swastika (Banned by Lack)
South Africa (apartheid)
Map of Concentration camps 1945
Map of a real serial killer kills (Jack the Ripper)

Apart from the one already banned, which of these would the mods/site consider crossing the line and can a case for the Swastika on some maps be made?

[Gillipig]

Would a map targeting the assassination of Kennedy be locked?

[Flapcake]

a map of the bloodbath on Norwegian utøya will certainly get some Norwegians out of their chairs, or school shootings in the U.S. (tasteless maps in my opinion) it's about which side you're on, people normally comprise a reason for what they do, the Taliban exercise is not oppression just because they thought that's cool to be evil, but because it is the values of what ​​they believe in is the right thing, it is again very offensive to many others, Nazi celebreating Hitler would sure like to see a map with the 3 empire slaughtering Jews, and the other way around, I thought the line goes by one's own ethics and reasonable morals, yes Seamus card with Bin Laden is reasonable offensive, the ink in the history books are not dry yet, having said that I thought concept sounds very interesting ..
CC is multiethnic, and it does not take much to offend people's religion or political views, why it is also good with this discussions, it shows that people feel a moral responsibility, I believe that there could be a few moral guidelines in nobodies Mapmaker Handbook, it would not harm anybody