RIP Foundry Avatars

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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby greenoaks on Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:35 am

thenobodies80 wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:
DiM wrote:we haven't even seen tnb80's map gallery get implemented and that was supposedly a sure and easy thing. i mean the guy worked hard to create that and lack didn't even bother to put a link to the gallery somewhere in the browse maps section.

Wow. That blows my mind.

Such a nice resource being squanderered.


Luckily, on this thing I can give you an answer:
The map foundry gallery you can see is not the final version.
I did serveral improvements and actually I have a version 2.0 I will release soon for some community feedback....ehm ehm with community I mean you guys in the foundry since for now it's not promoted on the site.

The good news, Lack want it on the site and we are working together to have it implemented. Actually I'm waiting some inputs from him on a couple of things but we're at a good point with it.
I'm the first to love the idea to have it implemented faster, but Lack has given to me some good feedback and important advice to perform it so I decided to take some time and work with the time I have.

As said I'm almost ready with it and I'll release a version more complete and with more info/better structure soon. For the implementation part, I prefer to discuss with Lack first instead of making a promise about a "when & how" I'm not sure to respect actually. ;)

will there be a sortable list of the maps by such things are total terits, starting terits or special features like winning/losing conditions?
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby thenobodies80 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:55 am

No, actually special features, number of teritories, etc are just listed in map pages
But it can be done and I would say easily...if it's a desired thing I can work on it and add something like that if what you would like to see doesn't become something too tricky. ;)

To do it I need to ask you a couple of things but it's better if we move this discussion in the map gallery dedicated thread. :)
I'll write a post there later, as soon as I'm back at home.

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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby Oneyed on Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:57 am

greenoaks wrote:will there be a sortable list of the maps by such things are total terits, starting terits or special features like winning/losing conditions?


you can find all these things there...

nice and great work nobodies =D>

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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby Campin_Killer on Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:05 am

Just had to rewrite this, damn connection.

Anyways, I support the foundry here.

Even though my map is in the early stages (Oh, it needs those), I can look around the foundry and see how long and how hard people with maps in the Main Foundry and Final Forge have worked just to get them there. And some of them have more than 1 map in the foundry right now! The mapmakers have worked hard to bring CC maps, and that cannot be ignored by lack. If he promises something, he best deliver this time.

Also, everything thrives on the foundry. There would be no tournaments, clan wars, and barely any maps, without the foundry. Tournaments need them to keep moving along. Same old same old maps would probably end up boring people in tournaments and lead to the tournament section dying. Clans too, need the maps, as they couldn't have clan wars without them. Hell, clans can completely change the way they play if they find that they kick ass on a new map.

The point is, the foundry cannot be ignored, as without it the site will eventually fall apart. So, bring the foundry some of the things you have promised, lack
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby crazymilkshake5 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:52 am

I can tell you this. If the foundry dies, you can bet your ass that im not coming back.

new maps keep this site running.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby MrBenn on Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:32 pm

/me yawns
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby thenobodies80 on Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:46 pm

MrBenn wrote:/me yawns


Patience, my friend, patience ;)

One day more, one day less...what change? O:)
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby DiM on Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:14 am

DiM wrote:could we know what these "tangible items" are and what's a realistic time frame for getting them?


:roll:
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby Nola_Lifer on Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:03 pm

DiM wrote:
DiM wrote:could we know what these "tangible items" are and what's a realistic time frame for getting them?


:roll:


They haven't figured that out yet. ;)
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby cairnswk on Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:20 pm

So how much longer does this foundry avatar RIP haqve to be up...i find it quite depressing for the foundry :cry:
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby natty dread on Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:54 pm

cairnswk wrote:So how much longer does this foundry avatar RIP haqve to be up...i find it quite depressing for the foundry :cry:


As long as it takes...
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby DiM on Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:05 pm

natty dread wrote:
cairnswk wrote:So how much longer does this foundry avatar RIP haqve to be up...i find it quite depressing for the foundry :cry:


As long as it takes...



nobody seems to be in a rush to at least give us some answers. it's been almost 8 days since the protest started and we only got a rather vague answer from andy 5 days ago. that was the only official and public response.
i actually thought we'd get more than this. some prompt explanations aren't that hard to provide and they can go a long way in establishing a mutual respect relationship.
even if they're working hard in the background to provide god knows what update, the lack of public speaking makes it all look like they don't care enough to respond.

at this point i'm thinking the protest should actually escalate into something more serious.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby thenobodies80 on Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:32 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:Lack and King Achilles started discussing some items while I was out of the office last week, and I caught up with them this past Monday. We'll have a longer and more in-depth conversation mid-week. We're working on some actual tangible items, instead of just written promises, and I am sure we'll be in touch with the Cartos (and the rest of the Foundry here) as well.


I would like to ask to everyone to have patience. Andy posted this some days ago saying that admins discussed about what we did mid-week.
Now since it's saturday and admins don't work on weekends i think it's common sense to argue that we won't have a reply or news before monday.

For now I can say, or better I'm allowed to say that something is moving behind the scenes, but I prefer to wait and understand better the situation before to give you a final answer. ;)
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby RjBeals on Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:32 pm

why not just say what it is? Why does it have to be mysterious? Maybe you'll get feedback if you make it public?
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby greenoaks on Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:11 am

take your time folks.

it give me a chance to catch up on my Best At Beta tournaments.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby DiM on Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:23 am

RjBeals wrote:why not just say what it is? Why does it have to be mysterious? Maybe you'll get feedback if you make it public?


precisely. this is what CC always does and in most cases the updated becomes a disappointment.

somebody comes in and brags an update is coming. he promises it will be important/nice/great/bring new innovative things. and months later after no feedback whatsoever we end up with an update that could very well be nice on its own but the problem is that during the waiting period, because we lack any sort of information each of us starts thinking, dreaming and hoping only to realise that in the end the update is not what we wanted.

now i'm a seasoned veteran used to disappointment and broken promises but hope seems to be coded in the human dna and once i first read andy's post i immediately thought we'd get conditional borders or infected neutrals, or even both. other mapmakers probably thought of really lax supersize rules or even a new interface, or perhaps no more jpg compression on our maps.

regardless of which one of these gets implemented all others will fell at least a bit disappointed.
if there really is something tangible being worked on then i don't see how it would hurt telling us what it is.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby thenobodies80 on Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:43 am

DiM wrote:somebody comes in and brags an update is coming. he promises it will be important/nice/great/bring new innovative things. and months later after no feedback whatsoever we end up with an update that could very well be nice on its own but the problem is that during the waiting period, because we lack any sort of information each of us starts thinking, dreaming and hoping only to realise that in the end the update is not what we wanted.


This is important: I never said that a big, important, nice update is coming. I've just said that something is moving behind the scenes.
DiM you were on the Team as well, you know that volunteers don't know things years before they are realeased but just few time before the others.
Anyway I don't think it's matter of months in this case, but more few days, at least I hope.

About this, instead:

RjBeals wrote:why not just say what it is? Why does it have to be mysterious? Maybe you'll get feedback if you make it public?


1. I don't know why it has to be mysterious, but it's not my business and being part of the TeamCC i can't tell things before they are announced officially, specially because in most of the cases I don't know what they are! lol

2. The feedback part. I'm on your side here. There's no day in which I don't push in that direction and imo it should be the way to go. It's probably the worst part of my job as foreman. Gather people desires and achieve them. It's like I always find myself caught between the rock and a hard place. Sometimes is not simple to find a way to give people what they want, convince admins that you're speaking for a reason. On the opposite, sometimes is not simple to convince people that what they had is really what was possible to give them in that moment. Balance people expectations and desire with what is reality is 99 time on 100 an impossible mission and there's no day in which I don't ask to myself: "I'm really doing all I can do to serve the foundry people in the right way?"

Now, what I would like to do is create the right place, and I think this thread could be that place, for a serious discussion. What should be the perfect way to have things done? How we should manage updates and requests? I mean, it's clear that the xml suggestion thread is bullshit. Imo there's no point in post something there and wait without a serious discussion. Imo suggestion should go through a different way, it doesn't matter if a suggestion end up with a simple and sad: "no it can't be done, rejected". Imo it's 1000 times better than don't know. So for you guys what is a good way to manage suggestion, at least for the foundry?
But remember, they should be proposals, not orders...we're not here to rule the site but to make sure our voice is heard and things done taking into account what we say, even if it could mean that something is not always in the way we would like to have it.

Personally I think that there should be a sort of semi regular basis on which updates should work, considering the foundry slownwss i would say 1 every 4 months or 6 months, but in any case not less than 1 every year. I would say that CAs and admins should try to gather info during this period of time and try to understand and ponderate what updates could be beneficial for the foundry and in the same time what updates are possible and feasible from a technical point of view. When this is done I would go with the 3 best candidates to start a public review period and discussion, maybe with a public poll. To me this should be the wway to go, but I don't know if it matches your vision.

What are your thoughts about it? Remember, if I know how you would like to see this place running I can try to push things in a direction, try to create a democratic system where democracy is appliable since it's probably the best way to go. ;)

It's your turn, I'll hand the discussion over to you
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby natty dread on Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:01 am

thenobodies80 wrote:So for you guys what is a good way to manage suggestion, at least for the foundry?


I think there should be, once every month or two months, an event where everyone in the foundry can put forth ideas and questions and then lackattack would personally show up and give us straight answers for them. Maybe a thread could be posted a few days-week in advance, and people can post their ideas/questions in it, and then at a set date, lackattack would show up and interact with the community.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby DiM on Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:06 am

thenobodies80 wrote:
DiM wrote:somebody comes in and brags an update is coming. he promises it will be important/nice/great/bring new innovative things. and months later after no feedback whatsoever we end up with an update that could very well be nice on its own but the problem is that during the waiting period, because we lack any sort of information each of us starts thinking, dreaming and hoping only to realise that in the end the update is not what we wanted.


This is important: I never said that a big, important, nice update is coming. I've just said that something is moving behind the scenes.
DiM you were on the Team as well, you know that volunteers don't know things years before they are realeased but just few time before the others.
Anyway I don't think it's matter of months in this case, but more few days, at least I hope.



i was talking more at a general strategy that CC seems to have. plus i was referring to andy's post not yours.
he said tangible things will come. what are those and when they'll come is a mystery and my point was that mystery is not really good unless you actually deliver some mind boggling awesome update.

i'd rather have a post that says: "lack and KA are currently working on a conditional borders xml update and we have an estimated date of release 1 month from now. we'll try and give you weekly updates"
instead of "we're working on something. we can't say what it is or when it will come"
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby DiM on Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:12 am

natty dread wrote:
thenobodies80 wrote:So for you guys what is a good way to manage suggestion, at least for the foundry?


I think there should be, once every month or two months, an event where everyone in the foundry can put forth ideas and questions and then lackattack would personally show up and give us straight answers for them. Maybe a thread could be posted a few days-week in advance, and people can post their ideas/questions in it, and then at a set date, lackattack would show up and interact with the community.


if memory serves me right, in the original xml suggestions thread lack personally came and commented on which suggestion and told us yes/no/maybe.
that didn't really work out as people expected.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby thenobodies80 on Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:19 am

in that case sorry, I thought you were referring to this post viewtopic.php?f=127&t=174607&start=60#p3825838 ;)

But probably it's because we both know there's much more hidden behind your words than what you wrote. :-#
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby DiM on Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:31 am

no hidden meaning. seriously.
i've posted this thing in a lot of places around the forums. i just disagree with CC's strategy of dealing with updates. regardless if we're talking about the foundry or the site in general.

they always say an update is coming but they never give specific details and in the end a lot of people are disappointed.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby zimmah on Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:33 am

DiM wrote:
natty dread wrote:
thenobodies80 wrote:So for you guys what is a good way to manage suggestion, at least for the foundry?


I think there should be, once every month or two months, an event where everyone in the foundry can put forth ideas and questions and then lackattack would personally show up and give us straight answers for them. Maybe a thread could be posted a few days-week in advance, and people can post their ideas/questions in it, and then at a set date, lackattack would show up and interact with the community.


if memory serves me right, in the original xml suggestions thread lack personally came and commented on which suggestion and told us yes/no/maybe.
that didn't really work out as people expected.


let's fnd the tread, select all the suggestions that lack answered with 'yes' and make a new tread from just those, and let's vote on them which one is most urgent, and let's make sure they get implemented the first, and than the rest after a few months, etc. and if no better suggestions come up in between, let's start working on the maybe's.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:34 pm

Getting a load of updates in one go, whilst nice would really complicate things over the long run. With average times in the foundry running from 6 months +, having a new update every year of one or two ideas would allow map makers to make maps for that specific one. 3 months consultation on what can be done, would like to be done, followed by a vote maybe of the best ideas, then the update coming live a little later. Follow this sort of pattern would give plenty of new maps every year with the new features and a year for players to get used to the new features.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby MrBenn on Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:07 pm

The best conversations that have ever been had about ANY updates to CC are those where lackattack has been involved with discussions with the community - but it is true to say that most decisions appear to be made by lackattack, on his own whimsical flight of fancy. Back in the day, lack was involved in discussion with the mapmaking community and discussed the best way to implement some desired changes such as one-way borders and ranged attacks - but it's the only example I can think of where lack has proactively engaged with the community before making any decisions.
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