Combatting Foundry Elitism

[MrBenn]

Share Your Opinion! -- The Map Foundry: Stamp of Approval?

The above thread saw accusations and counter-accusations of foundry elitism flying around GD, because rightly or wrongly, there is a perception that us mapmakers are an elitist and unwelcoming bunch.

The real question therefore, is what can we do to combat this perception? What can we change about ourselves? In what ways are we misunderstood? How can we encourage people to feel welcomed? What are people's expectations when contributing to a map? etc. etc.

[sailorseal]

Wow I just read through that, you have a way with words...


But really, maybe we could all just stop being elitist?

Or try and branch out a little, it seems to me most map makers stick to the foundry and vice versa, people seem to dislike what they do not know. If we branched out a little and maybe lowered the bar on comments then we might bridge the gap a little.

[gimil]

I still don't think elitism is a problem. The people that I class as 'Elite' are definetly the people who I would think are the most welcoming characters.

If their is an 'elitist' problem it should be addressed forum wide. We are no more 'elitist' than some other forums on here...

[MrBenn]

I still don't think elitism is a problem. The people that I class as 'Elite' are definetly the people who I would think are the most welcoming characters.

If their is an 'elitist' problem it should be addressed forum wide. We are no more 'elitist' than some other forums on here...

There is a perception gap - some people perceive elitism to be a problem, others don't.

The thought behind this thread is to get some suggestions on how to bridge that gap...

[e_i_pi]

I still don't think elitism is a problem. The people that I class as 'Elite' are definetly the people who I would think are the most welcoming characters.

If their is an 'elitist' problem it should be addressed forum wide. We are no more 'elitist' than some other forums on here...

I agree with gimil here. The people who deserve respect are respectful people, the undercurrent of elitism or, more correctly, noob-bashing, comes from a select few whose positive contributions are generally outweighed by their negative ones

[Industrial Helix]

meh, I haven't really dealt with it too much. I've had some harsh reviews and reviews that i didn't want to hear... but in hindsight its been better because i addressed a problem brought up, no matter how harsh it came over.

Maybe have a new mapmaker feature in the newsletter, so people can read what its like for a new mapmaker to compete with the experienced guys. How they deal with crits. What expectations are, how they were crushed, ect. Could be interesting, that way people who think they're dealing with unfair problems with foundry leaders could see how others have dealt with them.

[TaCktiX]

meh, I haven't really dealt with it too much. I've had some harsh reviews and reviews that i didn't want to hear... but in hindsight its been better because i addressed a problem brought up, no matter how harsh it came over.

Maybe have a new mapmaker feature in the newsletter, so people can read what its like for a new mapmaker to compete with the experienced guys. How they deal with crits. What expectations are, how they were crushed, ect. Could be interesting, that way people who think they're dealing with unfair problems with foundry leaders could see how others have dealt with them.

We had an Editorial by Mjinga a long time last year about being a first-timer (it's quite a good read, it's in the 3rd Issue, present in the Newsletter forum). I have not considered it being a regular feature, but it very well could be. Any ideas for a name and focus I'm open to hear.

(And people think I'm elitist, HA!)

[gimil]

I still don't think elitism is a problem. The people that I class as 'Elite' are definetly the people who I would think are the most welcoming characters.

If their is an 'elitist' problem it should be addressed forum wide. We are no more 'elitist' than some other forums on here...

I agree with gimil here. The people who deserve respect are respectful people, the undercurrent of elitism or, more correctly, noob-bashing, comes from a select few whose positive contributions are generally outweighed by their negative ones

pi has hit the nail on the head. This what I have been trying to say. The problems we have exist, they just arn't cause by the foundry 'elite' but some of the regular 'non-elite'.

[Premier2k]

I do believe there is a certain elitism within the foundry. But I also believe this is for the good of the foundry and for the good of the maps produced.

Let's examine the areas -

Firstly, the mapmakers
I think it is up to the likes of MrBenn, Oaktown, RJBeals, WidowMakers and Qwert (and any others I can't remember at this stage) to point out when a map is 'poorly thought out' or going nowhere. Perhaps this is elitism, perhaps it's not. But overall, this honesty can only improve maps, if the mapmaker can rise above the constructive criticism and go on to produce a high quality map then their job has been done. If not, then you have to ask if they would of had the patience to go through the process in the first place. I do not believe this is elitism, I believe this is experience guiding the new.

Secondly, the posters
99.9% of the posts made by proficient mapmakers I see, are constructive and helpful. I do however, see a few regulars (I'm not naming names) posting comments like: "Crap idea, give up", "Don't waste your time on this", "Go back to playing games", "My 5 year old daughter could do better" and many many more. These are NOT constructive they do nothing but belittle the map-maker. I often sense this could be where some of the elitism is percieved to come from, for example.. Person A walks into the foundry and sees a map, he/she clicks on the link and looks at it, Person A goes to reply and spots a post "Are you blind, this is going nowhere". Does Person A still reply? I doubt it... My bet is he/she leaves the forum, heads back to GD and mentions that it's "rather rude in the foundry" or "I'm not known so I'll just get flamed".....

So what can we do improve this, my honest answer? I don't know......stop posts like "it's crap" or "go away you suck"? That would be a start.

My overall view is that elitism by the senior members is welcome in the foundry and it's what produces great maps, perhaps the rest of the forum need to toughen up?

Just my ramblings....

Premier2k

[Woodruff]

I still don't think elitism is a problem. The people that I class as 'Elite' are definetly the people who I would think are the most welcoming characters.

If their is an 'elitist' problem it should be addressed forum wide. We are no more 'elitist' than some other forums on here...

I agree with gimil here. The people who deserve respect are respectful people, the undercurrent of elitism or, more correctly, noob-bashing, comes from a select few whose positive contributions are generally outweighed by their negative ones

pi has hit the nail on the head. This what I have been trying to say. The problems we have exist, they just arn't cause by the foundry 'elite' but some of the regular 'non-elite'.

Is qwert considered an elite mapmaker? I would say he is...at least, I LOVE his maps. But he's one example that quickly comes to mind as far as someone who maybe isn't "elitist" (per that definition), but who absolutely isn't particularly "welcoming" when it comes to comments regarding his maps when they come from a "mapmaking unknown", in my experience.

[RjBeals]

The only reason the "elitist" attitude is out there is from a few people who spread it around. A few people who post a lot. If I stumble into some niche forum somewhere on the web, with regular posters, and a specific theme, I wouldn't expect to jump right in and be "one of the guys". It would take some time. It's the same here. A new member is going to have to work at being accepted. Why do some people not see this.. it's pretty basic.

[Kaplowitz]

I dont understand how there can such a thing as an elitist group that allows for anyone to join.

[sailorseal]

Secondly, the posters
99.9% of the posts made by proficient mapmakers I see, are constructive and helpful. I do however, see a few regulars (I'm not naming names) posting comments like: "Crap idea, give up", "Don't waste your time on this", "Go back to playing games", "My 5 year old daughter could do better" and many many more. These are NOT constructive they do nothing but belittle the map-maker. I often sense this could be where some of the elitism is percieved to come from, for example.. Person A walks into the foundry and sees a map, he/she clicks on the link and looks at it, Person A goes to reply and spots a post "Are you blind, this is going nowhere". Does Person A still reply? I doubt it... My bet is he/she leaves the forum, heads back to GD and mentions that it's "rather rude in the foundry" or "I'm not known so I'll just get flamed".....

This is completely correct. Now most of the new members to the Foundry enter in the Ideas room since it is easiest to post there. Now I feel most of the comments you have mentioned take place their since it is also easiest to comment there without much thought. Thirdly there is no heavy handed modding in there either.
Maybe if we began removing such posters from the community then their feel would disappear.

[mibi]

I don't see where the elitism is. A few opinions does not a majority make.

We should just get on with our lives.

[thenobodies80]

Sorry guys, but really, i spent time on this thread and on the insomnia red one.
But i haven't yet a clear point of view.

Are we all discussing about people that share their skill/experience/knowledge to have better site.
Can we call these people elitist?
No, i don't think that "to share" is a word that goes arm in arm with elitism.
We can call these people special, helpful, maybe stupid - if we think that everything is done in life has to be paid.
since i started to be a FA i know a bit better people that really spent their time doing everything they can to have a better,userfriendly and efficient place.
Are we all discussing about the foundry system?
Why? Doesn't it work?
Yeah, foundry works in a different way, but we can't compare GD and Foundry, to give an example, they are different forums with a different purpose. Or we don't need a GD forum and a foundry one.
I think that 134 quality maps are an adequate answer. With a great love for CC,time, a good idea, graphic skill and a TON of patience everyone can do a map.

Are we talking about how we discuss, give suggestions, critics?
It's a wrong way thought, thinking it as elitism.
In my experience shared with pikkio, i met some people that really criticized our maps. But these critics improved the maps, ever.
Take a dig at somebody is not ever a bad thing, although irritating. Critics has to be ever well accepted if motivated/reasonable...if not, your are not ready to do a map here. Maybe this phrase could be taken as an elitist one.
But mapmakers really know, what means doing a map. It's an hard achievement. It's a waste of time spend months (as mapmaker) on a map that people doesn't want to play or you're not able to do.This has to be the way of doing things if we want that CC will not be another site with a ton of low quality/bad gameplay maps.
So, for example, is a really a bad thing if someone say you that you have to improve your graphic skill? I don't think so, if you don't want to waste your time. But this doesn't mean that you can't do map, but you can't do a map now...improve your skill and come back.

I'm a bit confused reading about people that don't like our way to do things, when i get messages from people who thank me for the help provided to them.
In the same way i'm a bit more confused when i read about people that complain how things work in the ideas subforum.
Foundry isn't only Moderators and Foundry Assistants, foundry is all people that spend time on doing maps, on commenting, on criticizing, etc.
All people that are involved in this process are a part of it, is not a Mods/FAs work, but a community one.
I think that if you don't like something you can always help to improve it and not only complain about.
For example,maybe me and sailorseal aren't really good friends and i'm not a big fan of his way to say things, but i like some helping posts he did in the ideas subforum. He took a part in the process instead to be a part of the problem.Can we call him elitist?
Are all the people that subscribed the reviews elitist?
Are all the people that did some useful guides elitist?
Are all the Mods/FAs that spend their time helping others mapmakers elitist?
Are all the people that give good feedbacks in the foundry elitist?

It's going to be a numerous group of people....and i'm still confused
How large could be an elite?