In an effort to give Yoshi the benefit of the doubt based on his inexperience, I am going to analyze his claim on saf. So far, I think there is actually some credence to it. I'll also be commenting on Yoshi more than I have
Let's start this back at the wagon on me. Saf finally chimes in on page 9.
safariguy5 wrote:Yes, PCM could definitely be under scrutiny for accusing Commander of vote hopping. However, I'm not buying the evidence of him not responding to joke cases. If the case isn't something substantive, you cannot expect someone to respond seriously. However, since a false accusation of vote hopping is the scummiest piece of behavior we have so far and really what you're looking for on Day 1 anyways, I think PCM is the best candidate.
unvote vote PCM
Now at this point I have already clarified the "vote-hopping post", but for some reason, saf (among others) chose either to skim over it or ignore it and try to perpetuate the misconception. Skimming is itself a mildly scummy act, but trying to continue confusion like that is far worse. The vote based on these faulty grounds isn't particularly strange, but it just shouldn't have happened. It was either careless or sinister, but both motives seem like ones that are overeager to end the day. He also leaves his vote on after I reexplain my post, but I wouldn't read too much into that. Since Yoshi's main (and really only) point on saf is that he's followed the wagon, I'll be keeping track.
Safari bandwagon participation count: 1
So I make a big post about why there's no case on me. Then safari says this:
safariguy5 wrote:Ok, well my thoughts on pcm is that he might have said some suspicious things, but nothing really out and out scummy to me. Vio was trying to get the game going again, and Drabod seems to have woken up. Victor, let's face it, is probably too busy with other things to consistently post in here. If we're going to lynch someone for submarining, why not go for the guy who's probably going to be the least active is not nonexistent in all likelihood in the coming days? Dead weight best shed now.
unvote vote Victor
No knock on you as a player Sully, but you have that newsletter stuff and are really busy. I just don't think you can concentrate on everything at once.
Wait, why did you vote me then? Why didn't you unvote when I explained the one thing you found scummy? What other reason could you have had for voting me than just trying to get the day over with?Anyways, now we're on to the Victor wagon. Safari actually starts this one, presumably because, based on the things I've just stated, he saw my lynch was going nowhere (Not that there was no case on Victor, but this is a very quick turnaround). This lasts for a little while until Victor finally shows up. And this is also the point where saf and yoshi first clash. For the sake of brevity, I'm going to link to these posts rather than quote them.
Safari bandwagon participation count: 2
The post in question.On 3 Factions: I can definitely see how someone could get to a 3 faction conclusion. I feel that my 7:2:2 conjecture is still feasible, and is actually probably more balanced than 7:3:1. Yes, 8:3 is about as likely, but I'm not posting this to argue setup.
On Comm's list: Eh. Not really that big a deal.
On voting Violet: Now, to be fair, I still have some points I raised on Violet which were never responded to (you can go have a look if you want, but atm there are more pressing matters, I think). As we speak,
I have a vote on violet. But Yoshi's reason for holding off on voting Violet is weird, especially when he thinks Victor's a good candidate. It amounts to "I didn't want to get voted for having an opinion, but I'll say it now that the discussion I had an opinion on is over." So basically, just causing a distraction. Therefore, I think this FOS is warranted.
We'll move on to the next post, which is the one directly below the one I just linked. Yoshi provides his reasoning, but it's not very good because it assumes Violet and I are the only choices for a lynch, which is not the case. In addition, the Victor case is more relevant, but he does give a reasonable justification for not voting him (except that it's glean, not gleam[/grammarnazi]). Safari fires back saying that the last case is a WIFOM argument. He's wrong.
A clearer description of what I think Yoshi was getting at: If both Violet and I were town, and we lynched me, then the mafia would choose not to kill her during the night because she would be an easy lynch based on the fact that she brought a lousy case against me. However, if we were to lynch her on Day 1, there would be only the one failed lynch rather than 2 (Vio alone vs. Me & Vio).
Now the use of the word "frame" is very important here. Yoshi's choice of that word may have been ill-advised given the ability of the Framer role. But on the other hand, that role is extremely rare. I actually can't think of a game I've played in where there was a Framer (there might have been one in freezie's HP game, but that's all I can think of). But Safari starts talking about framing in that sense. I can only interpret it in that sense of the word. He doesn't question it (i.e. "How do you know there's a framer?"). He just takes it as it is.
This is the only way this could be a WIFOM. And I think this is also a fundamental blunder on Safari's part. I think he basically admitted the mafia have a framer. Which means he knows that. Which means he's mafia.
Yoshi tries to clarify himself by suggesting we blindly lynch someone who is probably town. Safari replies something that makes no sense, but is essentially what Yoshi is advocating. You know what? I have no idea what the logic is in these posts. I don't think they do either. Regardless, the framer thing still stands. I really can't explain that any other way.
So we move on to Nark. Victor is cleared by edoc (but he still really hasn't said much...) and Nark falls under heavy judgement. Safari is one of the first to jump.
Safari bandwagon participation count: 3
Nark claims bomb right quick. Yoshi buys into it, voting for victor instead, even though Nark's role has no given name and victor has edoc backing him up (which I don't 100% buy, tbqh. A role of implied importance with nothing but each other to back it up? Plus a family connection in a game where the theme has real mafias? Yeah I bet. Plus Victor's done little to help himself. But this post already has two cases in it and doesn't need another).
So Yoshi gets crap for believing Nark's crap. Safari summarizes his whole case against Yoshi at this point. He basically just quotes himself, I've gone over all of it: the thing about me and violet (which Yoshi responded to and it didn't make a whole lot of sense but at least it kinda got at what saf wanted), The WIFOM thing (still makes no sense because they're not even in the same book let alone on the same page) and the Nark thing (actually pretty legit, but I'm still not sold on victor) and starts the Yoshi wagon.
Safari bandwagon participation count: 4. Yup, that's all of 'em.
Yoshi tries to defend himself. He doesn't do a very good job, but at least he acknowledges it. And because it's not that good, Safari makes short work of it. I have no idea what Yoshi's second defense is about. It sounds like despair, but it does hint at his doc claim. He suggests there might be a framer (and I think he's right, in case you missed it above), at which point edoc goes apeshit. Yoshi finally claims because he has nothing left to defend himself with and says his spiritual vote is on Nark (why it has to be spiritual I'm really not sure). It's like he's one of those people who get culture after everyone else. The guy makes a Charlie Sheen joke in 5 years? That's Yoshi.
Yoshi suggests that Safari is mafia, and then Safari propmtly calls him out on OMGUS (true, but note how aggressive safari has been) and afterwards makes an assertion that is completely ungrounded. Yoshi reveals he has lost his pm with his name. And so, here is where we stand.
Has Yoshi acted scummy? Absolutely. But he's only acted scummy in ways that are newbish. Yes, not having his role name is very fishy, because if in fact he does have his role name and it ends in Albarezzi, then he's in trouble. But that and the Nark thing are really the worst of it, and it all seems more misguided than malicious.
But Safari's a whole other story. He is very agressive, has a very telling vote pattern, and I really can't explain the framer thing. I'm going to
unvote vote Safari.
Phew.
