Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

[Mr. Squirrel]

I may or may not have information to share from last night. First though, Vio can you tell me what faction you're a part of (Angels, demons, etc.)?

Saint, though I'm not sure why you need to know this. Also, do you really expect that I would've said Demons?

Hm. Without some more information on the game's setup, its hard for me to evaluate your claim. I have a night action that (among other things) can tell me whether or not I visited an angel at night. I know that you aren't an angel, but what I don't know is if 'saints' are the human faction or if they are grouped among the angels. If the latter is true, then you would be lying (and most likely scum).

It would seem weird to me if they were considered humans (since most of the time people pray to them as envoys on their behalf to god) but I don't know what edocsil did here. If anyone can clarify this for me, I would appreciate it.

[jonty125]

I may or may not have information to share from last night. First though, Vio can you tell me what faction you're a part of (Angels, demons, etc.)?

Saint, though I'm not sure why you need to know this. Also, do you really expect that I would've said Demons?

Hm. Without some more information on the game's setup, its hard for me to evaluate your claim. I have a night action that (among other things) can tell me whether or not I visited an angel at night. I know that you aren't an angel, but what I don't know is if 'saints' are the human faction or if they are grouped among the angels. If the latter is true, then you would be lying (and most likely scum).

It would seem weird to me if they were considered humans (since most of the time people pray to them as envoys on their behalf to god) but I don't know what edocsil did here. If anyone can clarify this for me, I would appreciate it.

So, you're an investigative? Who are you?

[aage]

I may or may not have information to share from last night. First though, Vio can you tell me what faction you're a part of (Angels, demons, etc.)?

Saint, though I'm not sure why you need to know this. Also, do you really expect that I would've said Demons?

Hm. Without some more information on the game's setup, its hard for me to evaluate your claim. I have a night action that (among other things) can tell me whether or not I visited an angel at night. I know that you aren't an angel, but what I don't know is if 'saints' are the human faction or if they are grouped among the angels. If the latter is true, then you would be lying (and most likely scum).

It would seem weird to me if they were considered humans (since most of the time people pray to them as envoys on their behalf to god) but I don't know what edocsil did here. If anyone can clarify this for me, I would appreciate it.

So, you're an investigative? Who are you?

^This. Mr. Squirrel, I take it that you are neither an angel nor a saint?

[VioIet]

Hm. Without some more information on the game's setup, its hard for me to evaluate your claim. I have a night action that (among other things) can tell me whether or not I visited an angel at night. I know that you aren't an angel, but what I don't know is if 'saints' are the human faction or if they are grouped among the angels. If the latter is true, then you would be lying (and most likely scum).

It would seem weird to me if they were considered humans (since most of the time people pray to them as envoys on their behalf to god) but I don't know what edocsil did here. If anyone can clarify this for me, I would appreciate it.

It is to my understanding that Saints can be classified as humans in this game. My character is still alive- meaning I'm not the type of Saint who has already died, and people are praying to him/her.

[Mr. Squirrel]

Hm. Without some more information on the game's setup, its hard for me to evaluate your claim. I have a night action that (among other things) can tell me whether or not I visited an angel at night. I know that you aren't an angel, but what I don't know is if 'saints' are the human faction or if they are grouped among the angels. If the latter is true, then you would be lying (and most likely scum).

It would seem weird to me if they were considered humans (since most of the time people pray to them as envoys on their behalf to god) but I don't know what edocsil did here. If anyone can clarify this for me, I would appreciate it.

It is to my understanding that Saints can be classified as humans in this game. My character is still alive- meaning I'm not the type of Saint who has already died, and people are praying to him/her.

Hmmm... well that still leads to some gray areas. For example, would St. Michael or Gabriel be considered angels or saints? According to the catholic church, they're both. I'm not entirely understanding you, but I feel that clarifying it won't get us any further either, so I'll just let it pass.

[jonty125]

Hm. Without some more information on the game's setup, its hard for me to evaluate your claim. I have a night action that (among other things) can tell me whether or not I visited an angel at night. I know that you aren't an angel, but what I don't know is if 'saints' are the human faction or if they are grouped among the angels. If the latter is true, then you would be lying (and most likely scum).

It would seem weird to me if they were considered humans (since most of the time people pray to them as envoys on their behalf to god) but I don't know what edocsil did here. If anyone can clarify this for me, I would appreciate it.

It is to my understanding that Saints can be classified as humans in this game. My character is still alive- meaning I'm not the type of Saint who has already died, and people are praying to him/her.

I was fairly sure you had to be dead to be a saint?

[jak111]

Wow, with unfolding events I think we've outed Vio and Vodean as non angels. Though I am concerned about Vio's claim, saints and angels are to my understanding similar. Saint Peter, etc.

Although now that I am sort of outed as angel, who is WIlliam of York in religious text? I've heard of him but haven't fully grasped who he is supposed to be. If he is a saint/angel then I think Vio's claim is a lie, because I know I am not a human, so for her to claim a saint and say she's human seems... off.

I still expect a hearing from Vodean, but with Vio's slip it's definitely worth the pressure and Mr.S confirmed her non angel while she claims a saint.

Also, to further disprove Vio's counter deflections to the case growing on her.

http://www.cufblog.org/?p=420

"The word “saint” derives from the Latin “sancta,” which means “holy” one. Thus, by definition all of God’s holy angels are saints. Not all angels are holy, however, as some angels chose to follow Satan instead of God. These bad angels, called demons, seek our ruin, and give us cause to ask for the help of God’s angels in spiritual battle."

So by definition of what this site says, Vio is either a saint who follows Satan and is a demon, or not a saint at all with Mr.S's claim. (2nd paragraph for those looking for it)

Thus, Vio either be mafia or 3rd party at the least if the definition is correct.

Unvote, Vote Violet

(Although, for a side note, I'd rather follow Satan if the religion is all true and stuff 1.) Because he accepts everybody. 2.) Freedom. Just saying )

[samgrossy]

Okay guys, I just got confused and I think we need to be careful here.

Can we sidebar for a second so that we can get terminology down. Please add to my discussion as you see fit. Also please don't read anything this because I am just trying to get a few things straight.

I see only two parties from D1 scene

"There were yet Angels, and if there were Angels there were Demons. Champions would fight from either side in a mighty struggle, the largest conflict this troubled world had ever know. "

We have Angels
We have Demons

And then from the N1/D2 scenes adds a third party

"but with a desperate cry he claimed to be a mere mortal" and
"Demons stabbed at Angels and humans, humans interfered with everyone"

So there are humans too, probably third party, but no verification yet.


Why did I do this? Because when we talk about alignment, we need to say Angel, Demon, or Human. I am not sure that talking about Saint is helping, and in fact is confusing me (and usually if I am confused, others are too). There could be good and bad humans, good or bad saints, etc

Now if you think this is off base, we can discuss it. But not for long, because I just want to make certain Edoc's vocab is consistant with the vocab we are using in the game.

[vodean]

im not sure why people are voting me. no, im not an angel. but i AM town aligned. I think theres room to be both here...
jak is really standing out to me. hes trying really hard to cover his tracks, and seems to be justifying, and overly aggressive. i think we need to get a full claim out of him.

[jgordon1111]

Vodean reread what jak wrote, I think he is making his full claim. Now need to verify it.

As to you vodean,you seem to be now claiming human true? If so by what you say can go a long way in proving or disproving what Vio is claiming. Are you a saint?

[aage]

For the purposes of the theme I'm going to take a pot shot that we're playing in Roman Catholic mythology (although mythology isn't that different between Christians, and mostly depends on the age you're in rather than which communion you're part of) and the wikipedia page on Saints says this:

The Catholic Church teaches that it does not, in fact, make or create saints. Rather, it recognizes them.[27] In the Church, the title of Saint refers to a person who has been formally canonized (officially recognized) by the Catholic Church, and is therefore believed to be in Heaven.

As you can see, they're clearly referring to a person. The paragraph on Eastern Orthodoxy even goes as far as this:

In the Eastern Orthodox Church a saint is defined as anyone who is in Heaven, whether recognized here on earth, or not.[4] By this definition, Adam and Eve, Moses, the various prophets, except for the angels and archangels are all given the title of "Saint".

Angels aren't given the "saint"-title so I deduce that only humans in Heaven are saints according to the EO Church, not angels. That shouldn't really matter, though, since people who are in heaven are by definition town aligned.

Jak, you're claiming William of York as angel? He was Archbishop and saint... A human. I kind of doubt that humans would be elevated to angelic status, but I'll accept the claim for now. Care to tell us what your role is, or is that classified information?

[Mr. Squirrel]

Angels aren't given the "saint"-title so I deduce that only humans in Heaven are saints according to the EO Church, not angels.

The archangels Michael, Raphael, and Gabriel are all also given the title of Saint. So the two aren't mutually exclusive.

[soundman]

In the Eastern Orthodox Church a saint is defined as anyone who is in Heaven, whether recognized here on earth, or not.[4] By this definition, Adam and Eve, Moses, the various prophets, except for the angels and archangels are all given the title of "Saint".

It says "anyone who is in Heaven" which I would take to include angels. Hence why you have archangels with the saint title. Jak is claiming a saint who is an angel (but his name is human) while Vio is claiming a saint that is human (confirmed by Mr. S to not be an angel). I think the name is more important than the title. I would think that the Angels are angels (Michael, Gabriel, etc.) and the human saints are, well, human. Which makes me suspicious of Jak's claim.

Although now that I am sort of outed as angel, who is WIlliam of York in religious text? I've heard of him but haven't fully grasped who he is supposed to be. If he is a saint/angel then I think Vio's claim is a lie, because I know I am not a human, so for her to claim a saint and say she's human seems... off.

Are you claiming William of York, Jak?

[VioIet]

I was fairly sure you had to be dead to be a saint?

It's a game, not real-life. In real life, yes, you have to be dead to be a saint. In this game, you don't.

For me to say more would be revealing my role pm too much. I would re-classify my correct alignment to be human. My character just happens to be a saint.

I do believe that humans are a third-party in this game. Some of them are aligned with angels and some of them are aligned with demons. The types of humans vary- saints, doctors, investigators, trackers, drivers, etc, etc.

My guess is that Mr. Squirrel is also a human who has investigative powers. I believe that Jak is human also. The reason he probably said angel, is because his role pm may say something like, "you win when all demon's have been eliminated." That is pure speculation- but to me, it seems that's the only reason why he would say angel.

[aage]

In the Eastern Orthodox Church a saint is defined as anyone who is in Heaven, whether recognized here on earth, or not.[4] By this definition, Adam and Eve, Moses, the various prophets, except for the angels and archangels are all given the title of "Saint".

It says "anyone who is in Heaven" which I would take to include angels. Hence why you have archangels with the saint title. Jak is claiming a saint who is an angel (but his name is human) while Vio is claiming a saint that is human (confirmed by Mr. S to not be an angel). I think the name is more important than the title. I would think that the Angels are angels (Michael, Gabriel, etc.) and the human saints are, well, human. Which makes me suspicious of Jak's claim.

I highlighted the bit in the wiki quote that I think is significant but you (and Mr. Squirrel too) somehow missed. Or we're not playing by the Roman Catholic book. Or the game is not completely mythologically accurate. Damn, it sucks that there are so many loopholes that we can't plug.

[soundman]

In the Eastern Orthodox Church a saint is defined as anyone who is in Heaven, whether recognized here on earth, or not.[4] By this definition, Adam and Eve, Moses, the various prophets, except for the angels and archangels are all given the title of "Saint".

It says "anyone who is in Heaven" which I would take to include angels. Hence why you have archangels with the saint title. Jak is claiming a saint who is an angel (but his name is human) while Vio is claiming a saint that is human (confirmed by Mr. S to not be an angel). I think the name is more important than the title. I would think that the Angels are angels (Michael, Gabriel, etc.) and the human saints are, well, human. Which makes me suspicious of Jak's claim.

I highlighted the bit in the wiki quote that I think is significant but you (and Mr. Squirrel too) somehow missed. Or we're not playing by the Roman Catholic book. Or the game is not completely mythologically accurate. Damn, it sucks that there are so many loopholes that we can't plug.

I didn't miss it, I think it's wrong. It contradicts itself. Anyone who is in Heaven (humans and angels) are saints. But then it says that angels don't count. But everywhere you look it's Saint Gabriel, etc. This is just my thoughts.

[vodean]

angels are not saints. angels are pretty and have wings, saints smell like incense.

[aage]

In the Eastern Orthodox Church a saint is defined as anyone who is in Heaven, whether recognized here on earth, or not.[4] By this definition, Adam and Eve, Moses, the various prophets, except for the angels and archangels are all given the title of "Saint".

It says "anyone who is in Heaven" which I would take to include angels. Hence why you have archangels with the saint title. Jak is claiming a saint who is an angel (but his name is human) while Vio is claiming a saint that is human (confirmed by Mr. S to not be an angel). I think the name is more important than the title. I would think that the Angels are angels (Michael, Gabriel, etc.) and the human saints are, well, human. Which makes me suspicious of Jak's claim.

I highlighted the bit in the wiki quote that I think is significant but you (and Mr. Squirrel too) somehow missed. Or we're not playing by the Roman Catholic book. Or the game is not completely mythologically accurate. Damn, it sucks that there are so many loopholes that we can't plug.

I didn't miss it, I think it's wrong. It contradicts itself. Anyone who is in Heaven (humans and angels) are saints. But then it says that angels don't count. But everywhere you look it's Saint Gabriel, etc. This is just my thoughts.

I assumed "anyone" referred to humans. God is in heaven, is he a saint?

[aage]

In the Eastern Orthodox Church a saint is defined as anyone who is in Heaven, whether recognized here on earth, or not.[4] By this definition, Adam and Eve, Moses, the various prophets, except for the angels and archangels are all given the title of "Saint".

It says "anyone who is in Heaven" which I would take to include angels. Hence why you have archangels with the saint title. Jak is claiming a saint who is an angel (but his name is human) while Vio is claiming a saint that is human (confirmed by Mr. S to not be an angel). I think the name is more important than the title. I would think that the Angels are angels (Michael, Gabriel, etc.) and the human saints are, well, human. Which makes me suspicious of Jak's claim.

I highlighted the bit in the wiki quote that I think is significant but you (and Mr. Squirrel too) somehow missed. Or we're not playing by the Roman Catholic book. Or the game is not completely mythologically accurate. Damn, it sucks that there are so many loopholes that we can't plug.

I didn't miss it, I think it's wrong. It contradicts itself. Anyone who is in Heaven (humans and angels) are saints. But then it says that angels don't count. But everywhere you look it's Saint Gabriel, etc. This is just my thoughts.

I assumed "anyone" referred to humans. God is in heaven, is he a saint?

By the way, this is escalating into a technicalities discussion and that wasn't my intention. Bottom line is, I think Jak's roleclaim is curious at the least, but I don't feel like lynching an ex-archbishop.

[samgrossy]

It's a game, not real-life. In real life, yes, you have to be dead to be a saint. In this game, you don't.

For me to say more would be revealing my role pm too much. I would re-classify my correct alignment to be human. My character just happens to be a saint.

I do believe that humans are a third-party in this game. Some of them are aligned with angels and some of them are aligned with demons. The types of humans vary- saints, doctors, investigators, trackers, drivers, etc, etc.

I never really thought of humans being split into two factions, one aligned with town and one aligned with mafia. Maybe there isn't a third party after all, maybe there are just two types of town and two types of mafia. But, there may be a cult.

My guess is that Mr. Squirrel is also a human who has investigative powers. I believe that Jak is human also. The reason he probably said angel, is because his role pm may say something like, "you win when all demon's have been eliminated." That is pure speculation- but to me, it seems that's the only reason why he would say angel.

Based on this, I just get the feel that violet is human because of the way the "made up" win condition is worded, verifying at the very least that she is human, if not town.

So, my vote still stays on Jak until a stronger case presents itself.

[ShaggyDan]

Have a major assignment due in 8 hours. Will catch up and post either afterwards or tomorrow morning (24 hours). Really sorry guys.

[samgrossy]

angels are not saints. angels are pretty and have wings, saints smell like incense.

I thought it was only priests that smelled like incense.

[gregwolf121]

first off sorry for inactivity internet is nonexistant in my apartment, but terminology wise i believe saint means holy, thus good, and ill need time to catch up so i won't vote, and yeah

[safariguy5]

I think that calling someone saint or not is less important than knowing if they're town aligned. From what I figure, I think it's most likely that we have some humans who are Heaven aligned. Not sure about if there are any that are Hell aligned, there are going to be fewer Hell roles anyways, and it'd be very difficult to classify humans as anti saints or whatever. I mean, Ghost Rider and Spawn aren't walking through that door.

I will say that I think the idea of a cult is rather farfetched. Humans recruiting Angels/Demons/Both?

But can we get a prod on the inactives like Sully please?

[soundman]

In the Eastern Orthodox Church a saint is defined as anyone who is in Heaven, whether recognized here on earth, or not.[4] By this definition, Adam and Eve, Moses, the various prophets, except for the angels and archangels are all given the title of "Saint".

It says "anyone who is in Heaven" which I would take to include angels. Hence why you have archangels with the saint title. Jak is claiming a saint who is an angel (but his name is human) while Vio is claiming a saint that is human (confirmed by Mr. S to not be an angel). I think the name is more important than the title. I would think that the Angels are angels (Michael, Gabriel, etc.) and the human saints are, well, human. Which makes me suspicious of Jak's claim.

I highlighted the bit in the wiki quote that I think is significant but you (and Mr. Squirrel too) somehow missed. Or we're not playing by the Roman Catholic book. Or the game is not completely mythologically accurate. Damn, it sucks that there are so many loopholes that we can't plug.

I didn't miss it, I think it's wrong. It contradicts itself. Anyone who is in Heaven (humans and angels) are saints. But then it says that angels don't count. But everywhere you look it's Saint Gabriel, etc. This is just my thoughts.

I assumed "anyone" referred to humans. God is in heaven, is he a saint?

Hmm, got me there. Still, I'm not sure about Jak's claim of not being human and yet having a human character name...