Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

[strike wolf]

So we have two people claiming to have their votes stolen. I too think it's a little weird that we have two vote stealers (at the very least we can't have two who are aligned the same). I believe it was Jak who claimed to have stolen victor's vote to begin with. So far no one has come forward to say that they were the one who stole Iliad's vote. Iliad also claims to have only had one of two votes stolen but has also proven his ability through action day 1.

[strike wolf]

So we have two people claiming to have their votes stolen. I too think it's a little weird that we have two vote stealers (at the very least we can't have two who are aligned the same). I believe it was Jak who claimed to have stolen victor's vote to begin with. So far no one has come forward to say that they were the one who stole Iliad's vote. Iliad also claims to have only had one of two votes stolen but has also proven his ability through action day 1.

Ebwop: I'd suggest testing this. Starting with Victor's vote.

[jonty125]

So we have two people claiming to have their votes stolen. I too think it's a little weird that we have two vote stealers (at the very least we can't have two who are aligned the same). I believe it was Jak who claimed to have stolen victor's vote to begin with. So far no one has come forward to say that they were the one who stole Iliad's vote. Iliad also claims to have only had one of two votes stolen but has also proven his ability through action day 1.

Ebwop: I'd suggest testing this. Starting with Victor's vote.

Hmm, I'm sure jak said this earlier but it must have got lost in this saint debate. I do agree the two vote stealers are probably not the same alignment.

[jgordon1111]

Ok,lets see if we cant get this out of the way, The whole pantheon battle is good vs evil.

This time it is angels vs demons. The idea here is to save human kind and bring them into heaven. The problem is demons trying to subvert them(cult).

The humans especially the saints have always been prime targets of the demons. Therefore they are the third party we are fighting over. The more of the humans that the demons subvert the more votes they will have to lynch angels.

So its easily breaks down to:

Angels town
Demons mafia
Saints third party

So the choice is finding the Demons and the subverted humans. I believe that is what Edoc might have been referring to in his scene.

[samgrossy]

Let's not make conjectures about what "edoc meant" like jgordon did above. All this discussion is really not getting us any closer to a lynch. The mafia are are probably in love with this because everyone is discussing game semantics rather than who is guilty.

So, because no one has presented a better case than Jak's (imho) I will at least get the ball rolling back toward building cases.

In day one after the joke vote stage was over, I noticed that there were basically three unresolved cases that I feel may warrant more discussion:

There was a small case on CMS (refer to page 14 in thread). Since nothing has changed, what do people think of that? (Sorry, I don't know how to imbed links to posts yet)

There were votes on Hensow, who hasn't contributed at all today. Comments?

There was a push for Sully on page 15. Anything change?

Let's not end the day by making a mistake, again.

[samgrossy]

EBWOP

CMS case is on page 13, presented by /

[Victor Sullivan]

Here's a test for you: vote vodean

I'm caught up, I think, but I don't have much to add. Only that I find vodean suspicious and feel jak and VioIet are likely town.

-Sully

[/]

Iliad has been rather silent, now we have victor claiming a stolen vote as well
I ask again
ILIAD, WHO IS THE SAINT ELISABETH YOU CLAIM AS YOUR ROLE?
I believe he was also asked
ILIAD, WAS YOUR NORMAL VOTE STOLEN OR YOUR DOUBLE?
Not trying to yell or anything btw, just caps so they stand out.

Also, the thing about edoc's games is that, from my experience, fake-claims ARE given, at least they were in Norse Pantheon, before the end of day one, supposedly they were claims that weren't very good (search in wiki didn't turn up major roles, mafia from earlier games can compare if this is on purpose, or an exception), however, they did come with fake ROLES which were quite informative (I don't remember the exact claims, but we received as many as there were members of the mafia, things like "Vili, town watcher", so we knew there was no watcher in the game). The fake I put out at the end "Tyr, vengeful townie" was not one of the fakes given, since the claims seemed weak, just something I saw fitting as Tyr kills and is killed by Garm in the myths.

So you should expect the mafia, at the very least, know the general flavor of roles in the game, thus claiming something utterly impossible is somewhat unlikely.

Edoc, could you please prod Iliad?
Also, could we have a votecount?

[safariguy5]

So there's 2 vote stealers? o.0
Are you sure your extra vote was stolen, Iliad? You could've been roleblocked, would make more sense.

I was under the impression that roleblocking wouldn't affect the ability of the doublevoter because the doublevote ability is intrinsic like a mason or a lover and not a night action.

Vote stealer maybe, but I don't think doublevoter would lose a vote due to roleblock.

[LSU Tiger Josh]

So there's 2 vote stealers? o.0
Are you sure your extra vote was stolen, Iliad? You could've been roleblocked, would make more sense.

I was under the impression that roleblocking wouldn't affect the ability of the doublevoter because the doublevote ability is intrinsic like a mason or a lover and not a night action.

Vote stealer maybe, but I don't think doublevoter would lose a vote due to roleblock.

I also have never heard of a roleblocker being able to stop a double voter.

[vodean]

could we have a voteblocker and a vote stealer? and VS, im deeply touched that you feel im worthy of an attempt at a vote

[aage]

So there's 2 vote stealers? o.0
Are you sure your extra vote was stolen, Iliad? You could've been roleblocked, would make more sense.

I was under the impression that roleblocking wouldn't affect the ability of the doublevoter because the doublevote ability is intrinsic like a mason or a lover and not a night action.

Vote stealer maybe, but I don't think doublevoter would lose a vote due to roleblock.

Since it's an ??? vote, I expect it to be an active ability (i.e. the doublevoter sends a pm to the mod to use it, which lovers don't do). Since I never played double voter I haven't a clue whether they usually can be blocked or not, I assumed they could be. If I'm wrong there, as you say, there should be two vote stealers or some kind of copycat role.

[F1fth]

So far if I've not missed anything, it seems we've had claims in some form or another from Iliad (Saint Elisabeth, human saint), Jak (William of York, angel? saint), Violet (human saint), vodean (human), and jgordon (not human?). Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on any of these, which I very well may be since you people are so vague . I feel like we can all agree that angels could be called "town" in this game and humans may be aligned with either faction. After that, agreement stops and speculation begins.

It's curious the fact that we supposedly had two votes stolen last night. It's unusual though not unlikely in a game this large. It could be that there's one town and one scum vote stealer, or the roleblocker explanation doesn't sound altogether unreasonable either. Still, I don't think we should let Iliad off without testing his stolen vote since Victor was so kind as to oblige.

My suspicion mainly lies with the people who have not been so open about themselves, i.e. none of the people who've claimed so far (except for jgordan who unintentionally indicated his alignment). I'm willing to bet we're more likely to find scum in those engaging in fruitless metagaming WIFOM talk for the last two pages.

I will FOS aage, the main offender in continuing these discussions. I'm still waiting to hear from certain someones before I cast any vote.

[VioIet]

first off sorry for inactivity internet is nonexistant in my apartment, but terminology wise i believe saint means holy, thus good, and ill need time to catch up so i won't vote, and yeah

I agree with this.

And if Victor and Illiad are both referring to their ??? vote being stolen, there is no way that we can confirm this.

[Victor Sullivan]

Except I'm not a doublevoter.

-Sully

[samgrossy]

Oh snappers! I must apologize, I forgot about this; I was busy over the end of last week and the weekend. Not that it particularly matters, since my vote was stolen anyway

I'll try to catch up. Seems to me I was taking heat yesterday, so I'll try to be quick-like! Thursdays I'm booked, but I'll see if I can't post something meaningful by Friday.

-Sully

I guess that ends that line of questioning. Sully never claimed double voter. He only claimed his vote was stolen. Guess that implies a vote stealer role? What the heck are the mechanics of that role?

[jonty125]

He only claimed his vote was stolen. Guess that implies a vote stealer role? What the heck are the mechanics of that role?

Well actually I think jak claimed he stole it.

[vodean]

He only claimed his vote was stolen. Guess that implies a vote stealer role? What the heck are the mechanics of that role?

Well actually I think jak claimed he stole it.

and isnt vote stealer a generally scummy role? hence furthering the case against jak?

[Victor Sullivan]

He only claimed his vote was stolen. Guess that implies a vote stealer role? What the heck are the mechanics of that role?

Well actually I think jak claimed he stole it.

and isnt vote stealer a generally scummy role? hence furthering the case against jak?

No. I'd say it's usually town. Easier to balance that way, as it's not a particularly strong role for town.

-Sully

[safariguy5]

He only claimed his vote was stolen. Guess that implies a vote stealer role? What the heck are the mechanics of that role?

Well actually I think jak claimed he stole it.

and isnt vote stealer a generally scummy role? hence furthering the case against jak?

In the hands of mafia, it's almost as powerful as doublevoter. In general, while it's possible for mafia to have vote manipulation roles, it does make it harder to balance as mafia can endgame prematurely especially if there are no hints as to the size of the mafia.

[aage]

He only claimed his vote was stolen. Guess that implies a vote stealer role? What the heck are the mechanics of that role?

Well actually I think jak claimed he stole it.

and isnt vote stealer a generally scummy role? hence furthering the case against jak?

In the hands of mafia, it's almost as powerful as doublevoter. In general, while it's possible for mafia to have vote manipulation roles, it does make it harder to balance as mafia can endgame prematurely especially if there are no hints as to the size of the mafia.

Actually it's stronger than a doublevoter since a) you gain a vote and b) town loses a vote. I'd say it's a town role. Doublevoter, votestealer and voteblocker in the same team seems off though, so i'd say at least one of them is non-town aligned.

[strike wolf]

I have to agree that one of the vote stealer roles is non-town. Whether that means 3rd party or scum I'm not completely sure. Honestly we don't really know much about how this game is set up yet.

[jak111]

My guess is that Mr. Squirrel is also a human who has investigative powers. I believe that Jak is human also. The reason he probably said angel, is because his role pm may say something like, "you win when all demon's have been eliminated." That is pure speculation- but to me, it seems that's the only reason why he would say angel.

This would be correct, William of York sounded like some Angel so I said Angel, plus it doesn't mention anything besides killing the demons. Though if I am human and I am town, it makes me question what the angels are. My original thought was I was an angel, humans were third party and demons were mafia, but as this progresses and I am human apparently I question whether the angels are town or if they are the ones who are third party.

Unvote

I will say that I think the idea of a cult is rather farfetched. Humans recruiting Angels/Demons/Both?

Perhaps I can shed some light on to how there may be cult in the game. This game is based around some form of christianity one form or another, so a "non believer" or another religion could be recruiting people to their side. Take me in real life for example, I don't believe in any religion and if people listen I'll tell them up front what I think about it, hence someone preaching to unfollow chrisitanity making a cult likely in this game not a far fetched idea as Safari may have you believe, in fact, it almost fits into it perfectly. What does the cult follow or not follow? I don't know, but a cult is definitely a possibility.

Religion and Cults go hand and hand. If one only has a few members in it it is known as a "cult" but if one has many members it is a "religion". Sorry for those it offends but if I do not bring this to light we may let a cult slip under our grasp just because someone wants to hold onto a belief in a game.

Ebwop: I'd suggest testing this. Starting with Victor's vote.

Hmm, I'm sure jak said this earlier but it must have got lost in this saint debate. I do agree the two vote stealers are probably not the same alignment.

I did mention it

Though I think I have some information from last night as to who is what... Victor, make a vote, Iiliad, use both your votes, you'll both retract them once they are tested but for now I want to see who is missing their vote. Iiliad said he is, but Victor is the one who should be missing his, so I want to see if there's someone lying or if there's another person who can affect votes.

Funny how it was skipped and people act like it's a new idea
I even mention to find out if there's a SECOND person who can effect votes, if anyone cares to read that.



From what I am gathering + the link I quoted a few pages back all point to this new theory.

Demons = mafia (obviously)
Humans = Town AND Cult (there may be a cult amongst us)
Angels = Town AND Mafia (The quote mentioned that some angels followed Satan and hence they were Demons)

Any counters? Any angel claims to have a comparison? Any demons who want to add to this?

Fastposted by StrikeWolf

Why are we assuming there's two vote stealers atm? We haven't even tested to see if Illiad/VS is missing a/their vote. Do you got insider information we should know about about what's happening to Illiad's claim of missing a vote?

[strike wolf]

I admit it slipped my mind that victors had not been confirmed yet. as for illiad, he proved his role yesterday so innocent until proven guilty on that end.

[aage]

Why are we assuming there's two vote stealers atm? We haven't even tested to see if Illiad/VS is missing a/their vote. Do you got insider information we should know about about what's happening to Illiad's claim of missing a vote?

We're not. There's you, who claims to block votes, so that would be a vote blocker. Iliad stated that his vote was "stolen", so I assume that someone did steal his vote. Whether his vote was not stolen but blocked would just be a poor phrasing on Iliad's part, but still renders the point I made valid. Two voteblockers in one team plus a doublevoter is too much.