[Official] NBC Mafia Town Win MVP=trinicardinal

[BGtheBrain]

****

[shieldgenerator7]

we have 4-5 days until deadline. BG is at L-3 with 7 votes, and we still have more time to discuss.

[betiko]

ok, I find Swifte quite convincing but: the reasoning of many of you is that if BG is a VT anyway it won t be much of a loss.. I don t know, we could be at some point at a deangerous level where scums are almost even with townies and 1 vote could count.
aparently we can avoid to lynch on day 1; is our calculation good enough to eliminate a most likely VT? If he has no power role, it s way better than eliminating a doc or a cop. Either he claims right and is a VT, either he s a scum. would a power role claim to be a VT? could we be risking to loose someone important?
I think he is indeed a VT or a scum, and I d say 60% of me thinks VT. therefore I don t know if it s a good calculation, or if i d rather not lynch anyone on day 1...

[Rodion]

would a power role claim to be a VT?

That would be stupid in most scenarios.

If you've gotten to the point of claiming (L-2, L-1), then you are likely to survive only by claiming a convincing power role. If you claim vanilla while you are a power role, you're likely getting yourself killed and costing town a much needed PR.

[trinicardinal]

would a power role claim to be a VT?

That would be stupid in most scenarios.

If you've gotten to the point of claiming (L-2, L-1), then you are likely to survive only by claiming a convincing power role. If you claim vanilla while you are a power role, you're likely getting yourself killed and costing town a much needed PR.

Fully agreed - I see no sense in a power role claiming VT if claiming at all... VT should either truly be a VT or Mafia scum! ... or maybe a 3rd party like PGO might claim it?... not sure about that one

[strike wolf]

Agreed. Witht exception of Buffy mafia which was a special case (I wifomed the hell out of my role there and even took advantage of where the mod forgot to count my vote) I have never even considered claiming anything other my power role. I will however routinely undersell my power role or only reveal as little as possible about it at a time when working up to claiming. On the other hand as a vt I tend to oversell my role but would never actually claim a power role.

[Epitaph1]

OK, I actually had to make up 7 or 8 pages of reading, instead of 3. So, this will be more of a "big picture" commentary.

As I was reading strike's case on BG from a few days ago, I wasn't convinced that BG was scum. Then BG's claims and everything seemed to go haywire. We got caught up in colors and editing quotes and became sidetracked from the case on BG. I'm still not convinced BG is scum but not because I believe his claim (I actually find his claim to be the scummiest thing about him). I don't think his vote for betiko was anything more than voting for the most unusual person to that point. His failure to address Betiko's claim seemed more like an oversight than anything and then he got slammed by strike.

For the record, I find strike's edit to be extremely suspicious. I've never played with strike before, so I'm not familiar with his habits, tactics, and tendencies. However, he seems to be a much better player than one who would change a quote like that without making it more apparent that it was his own edit. However, a move like that wouldn't be hard to pick out and, like Rodion said, could have brought much scrutiny on strike. For this reason, I don't see strike intentionally manipulating words to strengthen his case and see this more as a example of poor judgment.

I will have to spend more time to consider any arguments against chapcrap. Given his activity in other arenas, it does seem odd, but I'd have to look into it more.

Are people still holding their votes on betiko because they think he's the scummiest player or because they just haven't found anything better to jump to? Has anything jumped out at anyone re: Betiko since we last debated the merits of his case?

[Leitz]

...

Are people still holding their votes on betiko because they think he's the scummiest player or because they just haven't found anything better to jump to? Has anything jumped out at anyone re: Betiko since we last debated the merits of his case?

My vote on betiko is still there because I am not convinced about the BG case. I understand strikes defense on why he (and others) voted BG, but it is the same as the case I opened on betiko imo: weak. Especially because strike himself is staying in the spotlight with other things (editing someone else his post without mentioning) which is not helping me in believing him. On the other hand, like you said, BG claim to be town wasn't really devoted. If I would claim I'd write a bit more than simply the message I received from the admin.. So, yeah, I'm keeping my vote on betiko as long as I don't see anything better to vote on.

[MoB Deadly]

I will go ahead and throw my two cents out there on everything since activity has slowed again a little. While I didn't initially find there to be much in strike's case against BG, the last 36 hours have been pretty revealing. Here's the reasons I submit my vote BG:

- His last several posts have the tone of someone who has given up, and just wants to get out of the game. I've seen this behavior plenty of times before from someone who's been busted.
- The VT claim is weak. I know people have said 'who cares about the color' - but if claiming to be townie is your last arguement, don't you go to the effort to make that claim as convincing as possible and use the right color blue? To me, it's a little thing, but it tips it to 51/49 odds of being false. I don't think the character selected matters at all.
- Honestly, it doesn't seem like BG has shown an ability to contribute to any of the previous cases, mostly bandwagoning, and he was completely unable to defend himself against strike. If he can't make any solid arguements or refute anything, how can he contribute at all to the game, one way or the other?

All these things together add up to a relatively weaker player with a weak claim that could either be a mafia who has been busted or maybe really just a vanilla townie without much arguementative skill, and while it's not desireable to lynch a townie, I don't think BG would even be able to help the townie cause much if his claim does hold true.

I do not agree with the points Swifte made.

BG is a firm believer that a Day 1 Lynch is necessary for Town. He knows that being a VT, it is likely he will get lynched and he is willing to take the hit for the greater picture.

It's Day 1 and there have been two cases, and one was against him. I've played with BG and he is very good at making cases, but there isn't much to go on Day 1.

I just wanted to explain my take on it, especially for the green reason, for someone who has been noncommittal and not adding new information to cases either.

[Swifte]

BG is a firm believer that a Day 1 Lynch is necessary for Town. He knows that being a VT, it is likely he will get lynched and he is willing to take the hit for the greater picture.

That's all probably true, but I don't see why an experienced mafia player wouldn't use the same defense to try and stay in the game. What mafia player hasn't said 'fine, but you'll be sorry when you find out i'm a townie' before being lynched? The noble townie is about the only card BG had left to play after being backed in to a corner and claiming, so personally I don't consider that as much to go on. So ultimately, it all comes back to whether or not you believe his claim. I think we need to hear from more people on that issue - who thinks what about the claim and why. That's why I put my own thoughts out there to contribute my observations and hopefully hear from others so we can come to a reasonable conclusion (or as reasonable as Day 1 allows). It is certainly not a rockhard case by any means.

It's Day 1 and there have been two cases, and one was against him. I've played with BG and he is very good at making cases, but there isn't much to go on Day 1.

I will certainly give you that, there has not been much to go on. I don't have a prior game history with BG so all I can draw on is my experience with the game and the info we have thus far. I appreciate the input and I will take that in to consideration. Hope we get more from everyone else, too.

[safariguy5]

Vote Count

Leitz
MoB Deadly
Rodion
jimfinn
shieldgenerator7
jonty125
dazza2008
trinicardinal
Swifte
drunkmonkey
BGtheBrain (6)- strike, jonty, Rodion, MeDeFe, MoB, Swifte
Epitaph1
betiko (4) - Leitz, drunkmonkey, chapcrap, BGtheBrain
MeDeFe
chapcrap (2) - betiko, trini
strike wolf

With 16 alive, it takes 9 to lynch.

Deadline in 4 Days.

[BGtheBrain]

****

[chapcrap]

Are people still holding their votes on betiko because they think he's the scummiest player or because they just haven't found anything better to jump to? Has anything jumped out at anyone re: Betiko since we last debated the merits of his case?

I have stayed on betiko because I didn't find the BG case compeling enough. However, if there is no lynch and it's coming down to the wire, I would switch to lynch someone who claims VT.

However, I do think the case against Swifte has some merit. It really does appear that he is doing nothing more than appearing to be helpful and then blend back into the crowd. And I find his voting to be scummier than BG's.

[drunkmonkey]

I think not only has Swifte been non-committal, but even in his case against BG, he uses a lot of words but doesn't really say a whole lot. He has an entire paragraph that still focuses on the shade of blue BG used. His main point is that BG didn't keep defending himself against attacks, but how long can you keep saying the same thing? I haven't found his behavior scummy - he claimed in order to get the game moving again. Swifte also mentions BG has been unable to contribute to other cases...what other cases? Betiko? No one really contributed to that.

His post seems like a lot of fluff to hide the fact that it's a simple bandwagon vote. This is the first case I think has more merit than betiko. unvote vote Swifte

[Swifte]

That's all probably true, but I don't see why an experienced mafia player wouldn't use the same defense to try and stay in the game.

What?

What mafia player hasn't said 'fine, but you'll be sorry when you find out i'm a townie' before being lynched?

Huh?

I fail to see how these statements don't make sense. If you asked real questions I might be able to clear up your confusion.

Very considerate and helpful of you. ow the case is not rockhard and you were just merely contributing, but for some reason you decided to hop out and vote after Betiko called you out.

Now that youve been called out again, you're trying to retreat and blend in and be as neutral as possible, with a sprinkling of helping the town with your contributions.

I never said or implied it was rockhard, in my original post I said it was '51/49' situation, but stated the small things that were pushing me in that direction. Several others have said 'gosh it's not a great case but it's the best we've got so I'll vote' and contributed nothing more to the conversation, I don't see why my saying it's not a great case is any different from anyone else, or why is this okay for everyone else yet I am tagged as un-committal? It's day 1 and we've only taken a hard look at 2 players, of course we don't have a solid case, and I never presented it as such, just as my opinions and observations to get conversation going again.

As far as trying to slip in to the background, I'm still right here, answering questions, and standing by my opinions untill I hear something better.

[dazza2008]

As far as trying to slip in to the background, I'm still right here, answering questions, and standing by my opinions untill I hear something better.

Well not really pal. You never commented on what chap and drunkmonkey said. You have been very non-commital and do seem to be trying to look helpful without saying alot. This seems like the best case to me right now as I have already stated my reasons for believing BG's claim so vote Swifte

[Swifte]

You never commented on what chap and drunkmonkey said.

However, I do think the case against Swifte has some merit. It really does appear that he is doing nothing more than appearing to be helpful and then blend back into the crowd. And I find his voting to be scummier than BG's.

Several others have said 'gosh it's not a great case but it's the best we've got so I'll vote' and contributed nothing more to the conversation, I don't see why my saying it's not a great case is any different from anyone else, or why is this okay for everyone else yet I am tagged as un-committal? It's day 1 and we've only taken a hard look at 2 players, of course we don't have a solid case, and I never presented it as such, just as my opinions and observations to get conversation going again.

As far as trying to slip in to the background, I'm still right here, answering questions, and standing by my opinions untill I hear something better.

[Swifte]

Sorry for the double post here, I meant to hit preview but accidentally hit submit a moment ago.

You have been very non-commital and do seem to be trying to look helpful without saying alot.

It's day one and we've had no solid cases, what am I supposed to commit to? You and drunkmonkey, and to a lesser extent chap, have been happy to hop off the other bandwagons and on to me because the cases have not been strong, so why am I the only one being held to the standard that I should be 100% committed to the BG case?

If people haven't found my observations helpful then that's their opinion but I don't see how what I said was any less valid than anybody else, and I put myself in the firing line apparently just by trying to keep conversation going this morning when it'd been dead almost 14 hours. So far MoB is the only one who's actually specifically addressed my comments (other than BG trying to make me look stupid) for what they were and responded with his own opinions about BG which is the type of productive conversation I wanted to spur so we could decide what to do about BG, rather than me being hit with these vague accusations of being 'non-committal', 'wordy' and 'trying to go unnoticed' which are about impossible to confirm or deny beyond what I've already argued.

As to my playing style, I will admit I am most often the mod when I play in real life amongst friends, so that might explain why my approach has seemed more that way as someone commented earlier. That's why I enjoy doing some of the 'business' things like tracking the time last posted and so forth. It's just a part of the game I enjoy.

[betiko]

I started watching the movie yesterday, here are some characters i think are among us 16:

-Jack
-his dog zero
-sally
-the mad doctor
-the double headed mayor

can the double headed mayor be an insane cop? we need to worry about that
Also, as the doctor is evil, is there any special doctor roles in mafia games?

[BGtheBrain]

****

[MoB Deadly]

Betiko, it is possible to have a mafia doctor (example Actor Mafia)

WOW i cant believe that was the result of that. I wish I didn't die the night before, that game got CRAZY

[trinicardinal]

I started watching the movie yesterday, here are some characters i think are among us 16:

-Jack
-his dog zero
-sally
-the mad doctor
-the double headed mayor

can the double headed mayor be an insane cop? we need to worry about that
Also, as the doctor is evil, is there any special doctor roles in mafia games?

I haven't watched the film in years... I'm going to try to view it again but its hard to get the quiet time... I did some checking of the characters... and figure you might also have some or all of these characters

Oogie Boogie - Boogie man - mafia?
Lock, Shock, and/or Barrel - Oogie Boogie's henchment -mafia?
Santa Claus - leader of Christmas Town
Igor - Dr Finklestein's assistant
The skeletal reindeer - pull Jack's sleigh

there are bound to be others as well and I'm not sure that all listed will be used.

[Epitaph1]

I started watching the movie yesterday, here are some characters i think are among us 16:

-Jack
-his dog zero
-sally
-the mad doctor
-the double headed mayor

can the double headed mayor be an insane cop? we need to worry about that
Also, as the doctor is evil, is there any special doctor roles in mafia games?

I haven't watched the film in years... I'm going to try to view it again but its hard to get the quiet time... I did some checking of the characters... and figure you might also have some or all of these characters

Oogie Boogie - Boogie man - mafia?
Lock, Shock, and/or Barrel - Oogie Boogie's henchment -mafia?
Santa Claus - leader of Christmas Town
Igor - Dr Finklestein's assistant
The skeletal reindeer - pull Jack's sleigh

there are bound to be others as well and I'm not sure that all listed will be used.

If Devil is one of the characters, there there might also be:
Clown with the tear away face
werewolf
Jazz trio
elves/christmas town characters
The tree with the skeletons
Vampires
mummy kid
pugsley kid

But all these are minor characters and will probably just be vanilla if they are included (except mb the clown, werewolf, or vampires).

Oogie boogie + lock/shock/barrel sound like a mafia to me. And that would be a good size considering the # of people in the game.

It seems like we struck a nerve with Swifte. I don't blame him for being non-committal with his vote initially, but the deciding factor that favors 51/49 voting BG is the color thing? That's pretty weak.

vote Swifte*

*However, I don't quite believe BG's claim, so I would be willing to vote his way if the consensus is to lynch him.

[Rodion]

1 - Important question: does anyone know whether mafia has fakeclaims or not?

2 - The light blue thing, in my opinion, tells more about Shield (and perhaps Jonty) than it does about BG.

On Swifte, I'll have to reread later in order to analyse the merit of the case.

[strike wolf]

1 - Important question: does anyone know whether mafia has fakeclaims or not?

Safari in the past usually gives fake claims.

2 - The light blue thing, in my opinion, tells more about Shield (and perhaps Jonty) than it does about BG.

On Swifte, I'll have to reread later in order to analyse the merit of the case.

Same both about the jonty and shield part and the rereading part. I was half-asleep over the last couple pages...