Once Upon A Killer Mafia (14/17) A Writers Block:Endgame

[strike wolf]

Actually the better option to prove his role would be to have you target a known person and have him jailkeep them. Him jailing you would only prove that he has the role block potential which could belong to a mafia role blocker. It is the saving half that would be more town indicative, especially if that person could confirm to having been role blocked that night.

Unvote

I did ask for more clarity. And your not actually explaining why what i'm doing is scummy. I've had a history with delaying reads. And you can't prove thats scummy. Since each time i've given my read, and its never been the case that "storr deff sheeped that other person" o "storr was deff piggy backing off someone else" its very clear i have my own motivation, and my own drive, and my own reads. I generally always explain why something changed, why something happens. Not to mention, i've all ready given reason WHY i'm not addressing strike wolf right now, I have business lynching hotshot right now.

What you did was suggest that I should be shot:

also, if Hotshot does end up flipping scum, who should Ultra shoot, if anybody?


I'd be down with streaker, AoG 2.0 and strike wolf

But haven't given a read on me and won't until you've "decided" on Hotshot. Sorry but as far as I am concerned, this just sounds like you are trying to limit any time I have to make a defense against your statement which is particularly important since you know I have been busy the last couple of weeks. If this isn't incredibly scummy, it's incredibly stupid. Either way I think it's time you woke up from whatever fantasy land you like to frolic in.

Vote Storr

you admitted yourself, it is time for a full claim. Let's hear it.

[StorrZerg]

I'm glad to see you have 0 input on hotshot

[strike wolf]

I gave my input. We have a unique situation where his role is very provable. It's only a matter of selecting the person we are willing to put up for the shot. Everything else in the case is irrelevant at this point.

[StorrZerg]

No, you gave 0 input on his alignment.

[strike wolf]

Fine I'll state it simply. If he can prove that he is a jailkeeper in the manner I suggested, I would say he is almost certainly town. If not, he's scum. Happy? Now please quit stalling.

[StorrZerg]

That's not what im talking about and you know it.

He has said plenty, and lots has been said about him. I want more from you, besides this "safe option" to avoid hotshot, and not lynch him. "Because it can be proved"

[strike wolf]

That's not what im talking about and you know it.

He has said plenty, and lots has been said about him. I want more from you, besides this "safe option" to avoid hotshot, and not lynch him. "Because it can be proved"

I've said most of what I have to say on Hotshot. I don't need to go take an hour of long quotes to do that right now nor do I have the time. Most of what I could say has been said by one person or another and what I've found useful to say beyond it, I have. My safe option is one of those statements. So you can continue to engage in this useless back and forth or you can do something productive.

[pancakemix]

your the one trying to push me for a lynch, so its your job. So, no i will not aid you in pressing for my lynch. As for the difference in time spent playing this game, I'll damn well spend it how i want to, So i suggest you be do a better job with your focus on the game, getting out key points you want discussed. Reinforcing real reasons as to why you think i'm scum, rather than attacking 1 liners, and waiting for me to "dig stuff up for you"

So indignant are we! Well, you can't tell me how to live my life outside this forum, so deal. I'm asking you to pull up your responses. If you choose not to I have to consider them unaddressed. Eventually, I will have a moment to go back. Right now I don't. As it stands, you still stand accused of cherrypicking crasp's comments and some other weaksauce stuff. Apparently strike is dissatisfied enough about your response to still consider voting you, so that's what I think of your response to him.

Its not false, its relative.

By your own admission, it is false. It wasn't prominent at the time, but you noted it. To say otherwise is so lie.

I Made my case, several people have made cases against hotshot, till you comment on those cases directly, this comment means absolutely nothing

You mean like this?

Hey Storr, anamaniacks actually got my vaguely interested in the HotShot case. I guess making a point about personal inconsistencies is better than just saying "LYNCH PLOX", mirite?

I will grant you, that got mixed up in a weird quote thing, but it stands that I made a comment about it.

This "nitpicking" statement if anything indicates that you are really not following the situation with hotshot, nor are you caring about my arguments because 1. your extremely biased and nothing i do/say will change your mind unless its a "forced change" that you have to accept regardless of your alignment, or you are scum so you purposely are doing this to keep casting doubt on me, to keep pushing me down.

It may be true to some extent, but only because I think you've been scummy. Let's be honest: if I think you're scum, I'm going to be suspect of the cases you bring up. I don't really consider this nitpicking, because you're not continuing or generating anything new with these comments. You're just telling us to lynch HotShot.

I did ask for more clarity.

K now I'm gonna get nitpicky. You didn't ask for clarity in that quote. You just said it was vague. That's a very passive/aggressive way to ask for clarification.

I've had a history with delaying reads.

I've played with you enough to not believe this. And really, you haven't delayed the read but the reason for it anyway.

Not to mention, i've all ready given reason WHY i'm not addressing strike wolf right now, I have business lynching hotshot right now.

But you took enough time to say that your read had changed and you wouldn't explain why. So that's bull.

This is an over reaction from you on something that shouldn't be causing this much "outrage" and "damnation"

Please call every time I swear an overreaction.

Instead, we have blanket statement form you stating that "EVERYTHING" i'm doing regarding hotshot is bad

Pretty sure I didn't say that. I said I wasn't sold and that your method was unconvincing (and out of character).

1 just happens to be because i'm town

Lol

2. I'm playing very transparent, i'm explaining everything thats going on in my mind, is it always at the time people want it? sometimes no.

Those two don't really mix. You having a reason for flipping on Strike is unclear at best.

3. I've basically soft claimed something, and you have made no comment on that.

1. That's not a reason to move away
2. My comment is "just fucking claim" because it would be more effective than demanding votes.

As for hotshot, you admit there are good points against him, yet you haven't actually said who made good points. and what points those are. Instead, we have blanket statement form you stating that EVERYTHING i'm doing regarding hotshot is bad. Its very easy, from these statements to think you have an incredibly huge bias against me, since you are not actually explaining yourself.

I did do the first thing, didn't do the second, and see that you're playing differently fro your norm in the 3rd. I'm not sure what I'm not explaining, which again, is deliciously ironic.

He's been asking for comments all day, and he's been asking for votes after that. I don't think I've read the phrase "Lynch HotShot" in his posts more than twice.

Well, that's a good bit of nitpicking. I don't really think the case was at rest, so I felt that premature and the move itself a little out of character.

On Day 1, you didn't have any town read that you would defend. On Day 2, Yay, everyone is town! Except Storr. It's the change of heart that sets me off.

This is a very good point and I like it.

@zivel i have some comments for you within 24 hours. possibly let me know when you have free time and are online on the forum, so we can converse at that time thanks in advance.

Wat.

I'm glad to see you have 0 input on hotshot

I do believe an unvote is plenty input enough.

[Streaker]

Ah f*ck. I really didn't want to lynch HotShot. However I cannot accept his jailkeeper claim.
Will read thoroughly today, especially the case on him.

For his claim alone, however, I'm willing to hammer him (still plenty to deadline).

[Zivel]

I have read it all up to this point and will read back and try to catch up.

Ah f*ck. I really didn't want to lynch HotShot. However I cannot accept his jailkeeper claim.
Will read thoroughly today, especially the case on him.

For his claim alone, however, I'm willing to hammer him (still plenty to deadline).

Why? Explain this please, what is wrong with his claim?

What I am seeing from Storr mainly is trying to pull people into conversation by strawmaning arguments. With this he has got a claim out of Hotshot who has claimed jailkeeper. Now if he had claimed roleblocker then I would be questioning his claim, but jailkeeper is more townie in my opinion as I see his claim as testable and if he is not a jailkeeper then we kill him tomorrow, I like his claim although there could be a discrepancy with his power and his character. I see his case on Storr as OMGUS mainly. I am not willing to vote him due to his claim being testable.

Back to Storr, well he is pushing a case and getting people talking which at its heart is town to me but I question his motivation as it appears that this is his meta be it scum or town. He has been leading town and has created several cases, I see these as limited at best and with the wagon on Hotshot now I am questioning how many scum are on it and if Storr has successfully got his crew to push through a town lynch. Really I have nothing solid, just a feeling that he is missing points in peoples arguments and picking out the things he wants to hear. I am more interested in how the votes have been placed than the cases and I would guess that there are at least 2-3 scum on the Hotshot wagon now if he flips town. I honestly feel slightly scum towards Storr but not enough to vote him.

I understand that you wanted to talk to me Storr, and I can guess that it is about my TvT read. Well I knew that it was not going to be liked, especially by you so I gave my reasons. Yes I was not applying pressure, but within my time restraints I did not want to do anything rash when I thought I was reading a TvT.

If I am reading Mtam correct then we have a free save anyways so who ever is lynched he can revive no? (depending on roleblockers in mafia, lets not jailkeep Mtam tonight aye).

On DD's shots. I think that he should just keep his mouth closed about who he is going to shoot. I think one on the person who is going to take Hotshots jailkeep and one should be left up to him tbh, if we explain too much then the mafia will have the knowledge. I will get a list out soon but firstly I want to look at a couple of people so that I can actually throw a vote out there that I feel comfortable with. The following posts are just three people that I wanted to know more about so I will read their ISO's and create a picture, I am not really sure what I will find so I may just find a whole bunch of town reads and still be fucked.

[Zivel]

Crasp:
I have looked over all of Crasps posts and will try and pull out the interesting things that I see, I may not catch it all but its how I am reading him at the moment.

He started D1 with some random BS about Mtam and Storr and how they always fight like this and threw a weak vote at Virus for being online and not saying anything. Sheeping Storr mainly but unvoting later cause he is saw virus had checked in. Fucking weak play that did nothing except maybe try to slow Storr down, but didnt work.

Dropped a couple of FOS's on Streaker for an argument of the worth of a post count. Not really backed up or that I agree with, a BS argument that went nowhere.

Then he got himself well confused with the Ultra/Virus lover situation but worked it all out finally and came to the same conclusion that I came to about it not being a mafia kill because why would Virus die and not Ultra.

Then there was his first real post of interest:

A good way for me to get lynched but here goes.
I think either Mt or Storr are scum or certainly not batting for the same side.

There was also things said before this but since MT has basically done nothing. Yes he has put the odd abusive post in but nothing like the Mt we all know and hate. It looks to me like he is trying to stop Storr from getting a read on him. Either he is scum or he is suspicious of Storr.
Storr is really difficult to get a read on but in the gamesI have been in where he is scum he leads from the front and tries to pull a couple of gullible townies in with him who he sets up then dissappears, usually without the townie realising what he has done, and yes that gullible townie would be me.Thats the game he seems to be playing here. That i must be scum post is an attempt to get an over the top reaction out of me , something I am known for and both of them are good at provoking it. Like I say this might get me lynched or even killed and that would be a blow to town but if I was looking anywhere it would be between these two.
There was also the move way back when Mt wanted to pressure me but Storr wouldnt play and Mt just dropped it. Thats not how Mt plays and storr just let it go.

An intersting post about the Mtam and Storr interactions which I am sure we were all are feeling but he expressed it well. Mtam has played strange this game and Storr is letting him ride... Not like Storr but I am sure there is something more to it. Mtam started strong but has faded into insignificance and Storr, who is building cases on people for much less has let him. I like this post.

Missed the vote.....

Then there is a massive conspiracy post about vampires and Virus and such that just went right over my head and I think he was drunk again. My guess on the situation was that we have a vig who shot Ultra, but maybe he was right and we are all going to end up undead.

Calls out Storr for being flustered, I liked this...

Has an odd theory that Ultra is creating fog and streaker is hiding in it.

Then this post caught my eye

Problem. Do that and Ultra is going to be walking about like Elmer Fudd blasting everything that moves. I am willing to accept ultra is town for now. He tells who he is going to hit beforehand and if it happens he is in the clear as far as i am concerned.
@ Storr. You look to me like you are getting a bit flustered.
FP'd by a flustered Storr

Getting Ultra to call out his targets is dumb as all the protection from mafia and disagreeing town will go there. Just let Ultra do his thing. I have Ultra as confirmed town. Let me digress to explain... Virus flipped town so unless he is fucking stupid we have to take his claim as true. He said he is lovers with Ultra, so that makes Ultra town. Crasps BS about questioning Ultras alignment was misguided and got him well confused. Probably drunk again.

His read on Hotshot:

I wouldnt say hotshot has particularly come to my attention. looks to me like he is doing just enough to get by but so are others. Changed vote at the lynch and came in on AOG in scum territory but to be fair so did others and he was kind of coaxed into it by MT. I have him neutral just now.
I have also noticed streaker seems to have lurked back into the fog again.

Then makes actually quite a valid point about AOG. And Votes him but sortly after says he has been pressured by Storr to switch to Hotshot. Confusing as f*ck.

Then justifies his vote on Hotshot by saying he is trying to get this game moving forward.

I conclude after this inane ramble of mine that I have Crasp slightly town but needs to stop bloody drinking and getting himself all confused. He has made valid points about Storr and Mtam and has pulled up Streaker for hiding in the background doing nothing. I really didnt like his post about getting Ultra to say who he is going to shoot as that just wastes Ultras shots. Any shot from Ultra is better than nothing (see my reasons about No Lynching if you want to see the math). I also dont like his reason for voting Hotshot as there wasnt one really and was just trying to apply pressure. I play that you vote the person you want to see die and if you are not happy with them dying dont vote them. But overall has been active and has questioned most of the lead players in the game. I would love to see more about his read on streaker and to explain his hotshot vote some more. Hope he enjoys this long arse post

[Zivel]

Streaker:
Again same disclaimer as Crasps

D1 Votes Ultra for his BS no lynch policy which is still fucking stupid Ultra and you need to revise it.

Has a small go at Crasp but nothing major, mainly OMGUS I would say.

Has a great post at Storr:

That's great and all, but just a little side note: in your other games you play the same, only much more aggro and persuing. You are definitely hunting, but all over the place instead of sticking to your main leads. Could be you are simply unsure, or could be you have different reasons.

I like this as he pulls up Storr for stuff I thought was very valid.

Some general reads:

1.Hotshot53 Neutral
2.Pancakemix town
3.mtamburini town
4.Streaker
5.Virus90 Mafia
6.aage Neutral
7.Storrzerg sligthly mafia, more meta then an actual read though
8.Ultrasplot scum read
9.Zivel neutral, leaning scum
10.Whatsausage sligthly scum feeling
11.Army of God leaning scum
12.Anamainiacks neutral, leaning town
13.Crasp town
14.dd515187 was town, dissapeared. he played more active last game and he was mafia there.
15.Anarkistsdream Neutral
16.Strikewolf Town read
17.Crazymilkshake5 Neutral

Fp'd strike wolf

Twice...

Hmmm.... calls me scum. Calls Virus scum, calls AOG scum. Not sure I run with his read list to be honest, but this was early in the game.

Really wants to see an Ultra lynch, but note that this was before the lover claims.

No No No No NO

Why are peple letting go of Ultro so easily?

i'll sum things up for all of you:

-Pushing No Lynch (got a wagon started for policy)
-Defending his push for NL with: can't lynch without cop info. He is explicitely trying to stop all daytime discussion here. This is wrong for several reasons (he wants cop outed on D2, doesn't want info from posts...)
-Threatening town with the 'i'm a town power role, you can't lynch me!' post. Like I said before, with as little pressure as there is on Ultra, and a quickly fading wagon this is simply unneeded if you are town.
-Not going after an actual case (not scumhunting AT ALL). Not by voting and not by posting. Many posts yes but nothing really pushing after mafia either.

This is about more then policy lynching... I'm sad that we didn't get more pressure on him.

Gets an OMGUS vote from Ultra and throws it back at him.

After the lover claims he Still pushes for an ultra lynch and is tunneling hard now. Missing major points in peoples arguments and just reading what he wants to read. Starts attacking Virus now after he has backed up Ultra. Even goes as far as to say that we should lynch Ultra and Virus should not protect him.

Funny enough after the flip this is in one of his posts:

Now, if we have to look anywhere for vote leads, it should be the virus wagon. The 2 persons standing out the most for me are DD and Storr.

He also has Ultra as town by the looks.

His lasts posts are to argue with Storr and then vote Hotshot with a reason that he hates his claim.

Streaker starts off well and then tunnels real bad on a couple of townies. When they flip he says we should be looking at the ones that were pushing for their lynch.... well my friend the one that pushed the hardest was you.... I could lean scum here but I also think that he got himself into a bit of a bind. He did some serious tunneling and then when it turned out wrong he just had to stop. His quote about looking at the ones leading the Virus wagon could be a town slip as I could never see a Mafia turn attention to themselves so strongly. It was a noob mistake that basically says 'lynch me'. I actually think this is the case and read him town. I just could never see a mafia pull the spotlight over themselves so blatantly.

This is not helping me find scum.....

[Zivel]

Ok my last read will have to wait till the morning as this has already taken me to bloody long and its midnight here, but I thought I have not offered much lately so here is some reading for you all. Reading back on the posts I could easily see either Crasp or Streaker as scum and if someone wants to push a case I could probably be convinced to join. I know I said that I read them town but Streakers switch from pushing Ultra to wanting to lynch Ultras pushers is bloody odd and seems almost to scummy to be true. Crasp honestly has added f*ck all to the game, although I find him quite humorous, and his switch from null read on Hotshot to voting him like two posts later needs explaining.

Who do you want next? Please make it a scum as I want to vote someone and I should have time to get it out in the next twelve hours.

[Streaker]

I don't agree on that completely. I was tunneling on Ultra, yes. Though not on Virus (as much). I was NEVER in favor of a Virus lynch, I even stated several times why it was the worst choice between the two. After Virus flipped town I am now assuming lovers are same allignment thus I consider Ultra town.

The basic reason for NOT wanting to lynch Virus was proving their claim.
I have been inactive too much, granted.

Today I was reading Storr as scum, trying to build a case on him. I found his HotShot case not good.
Now I can say that it's a very strange claiming jailkeeper, as it would be unlikely (though 3 lover pairs) to have 2 similar roles in 1 group.

I would like people's thoughts on this before I vote.
For now I have this reason to lynch Hotshot. In the unlikely event he is town (then FU mod), Storr is as good as proven scum in my eyes.

[aage]

Today I was reading Storr as scum, trying to build a case on him. I found his HotShot case not good.
Now I can say that it's a very strange claiming jailkeeper, as it would be unlikely (though 3 lover pairs) to have 2 similar roles in 1 group.

Are you counterclaiming?

[Streaker]

Not quite. Yet it would be hard to believe both jailkeeper and roleblocker are in the same allignment.

I know that usually roleblocker is mafia alligned, but I would never claim this, at this point, from a mafia perspective. I have a good feeling this will bust HotShot (or prove that the mod sucks at balance.)

[StorrZerg]

hotshot Could you please explain the interactions of roles and and your power.

If someone cop checked the person you jailed, would the result be null?
If someone tracked you, would they be able to see you visit the person you jailed?
If someone watched your target, would they see you jailing the target?
If someone bus drivered your target, would the bus fail since you jailed? or would your jail be on the new target?

[StorrZerg]

Not quite. Yet it would be hard to believe both jailkeeper and roleblocker are in the same allignment.

I know that usually roleblocker is mafia alligned, but I would never claim this, at this point, from a mafia perspective. I have a good feeling this will bust HotShot (or prove that the mod sucks at balance.)

with your recent line of posts, and if they line up i'd switch you for WS. you would be moving up on the null/leaning town.

much of this has to do with the manner of your counter claim, even if it isn't exactly a straight up counter claim.
Your position on me before hand, and the switch seems odd to make from a mafia stand point, even if you had ties to streaker, doesn't make much sense to bury him like you are trying if your alignment was to be mafia. Paired with streaker, its an odd timing to hammer, since counter pressure is being applied to myself. Unpaired with streaker, its odd timing again, since bring much "unwanted" attention to you, again a big lynch is being pushed on me.

And for the doubters, streaker + me being scum aligned, gives him motivation to help the lynch. (yet this seems counter intuitive since he would be gaining lots of credit upon my lynch, and how he stands )

@streaker, if you can answer any of the questions or all i had for hotshot that would be lovely.

[Streaker]

hotshot Could you please explain the interactions of roles and and your power.

If someone cop checked the person you jailed, would the result be null?
If someone tracked you, would they be able to see you visit the person you jailed?
If someone watched your target, would they see you jailing the target?
If someone bus drivered your target, would the bus fail since you jailed? or would your jail be on the new target?

I'll bite.

1/ I dunno
2/probably
3/probably
4/if my target is switched, then the new 'target' is blocked, i assume.

Your questions are not answerable, because I would have to ask the mod these kind of details. Rarely (never) are you given this kind of information in your role pm. I don't think you would expect any kind of different answer from anyone at this point?

[StorrZerg]

hotshot Could you please explain the interactions of roles and and your power.

If someone cop checked the person you jailed, would the result be null?
If someone tracked you, would they be able to see you visit the person you jailed?
If someone watched your target, would they see you jailing the target?
If someone bus drivered your target, would the bus fail since you jailed? or would your jail be on the new target?

I'll bite.

1/ I dunno
2/probably
3/probably
4/if my target is switched, then the new 'target' is blocked, i assume.

Your questions are not answerable, because I would have to ask the mod these kind of details. Rarely (never) are you given this kind of information in your role pm. I don't think you would expect any kind of different answer from anyone at this point?

sure, but would you expect hotshot to be able to answer these questions? (since mod would be able to answer these questions i assume to him)
One other follow up question, would watcher be able to see other people visit the jailed?

IE cop visits jailed
Jailer visits the jailed
Watcher visits jailed

results would be
Watcher sees only jailer (reason being if cop did visit, he would get result, thus no visit, no result)
Cop no result

Does this make sense? or would the watcher see the attempt of a visit from cop?

I asked you, i thought you had a more similar role to hotshot.

[Streaker]

That's the whole thing about my claim now, they are different roles but I cannot imagine them EVER being same allignment (and usually they are vice versa) if that makes sense.

I'm basing this thing off the fact that they will not be same allignment.
Also assuming (I know, mother of all disasters) that when jailed, you can't be touched. When blocked, you can be touched. None of this matters though, it's all about allignment and balance.

[HotShot53]

hotshot Could you please explain the interactions of roles and and your power.

If someone cop checked the person you jailed, would the result be null?
If someone tracked you, would they be able to see you visit the person you jailed?
If someone watched your target, would they see you jailing the target?
If someone bus drivered your target, would the bus fail since you jailed? or would your jail be on the new target?

I protect from harm and roleblock, I don't protect from cop checks as far as I know, so results should come through as normal.
I assume so.
I assume so.
Why would anyone want to know this except a scum bus driver wanting to switch out who I am protecting so they die, so they can "disprove" my claim and lynch me? +1 to scum read. This is the only problem with stating ahead of time who ultra should shoot/I should jail, is that in a non-vanilla game scum is sure to have things like a roleblocker and/or busdriver (and yes, scum could have them at the same time as town in a game like this).

[HotShot53]

That's the whole thing about my claim now, they are different roles but I cannot imagine them EVER being same allignment (and usually they are vice versa) if that makes sense.

I'm basing this thing off the fact that they will not be same allignment.
Also assuming (I know, mother of all disasters) that when jailed, you can't be touched. When blocked, you can be touched. None of this matters though, it's all about allignment and balance.

This is a non-vanilla game... so without VT he has to give out lots of roles but not break the game too much... so yes, I could see a town roleblocker and a town jailer, along with a scum rolebloker maybe. Or if we are on opposite sides, maybe you are a scum roleblocker? (Not saying you are, just saying it's always a possibility). I've never seen a scum jailer before, although I guess anything is possible.

[StorrZerg]

hotshot Could you please explain the interactions of roles and and your power.

If someone cop checked the person you jailed, would the result be null?
If someone tracked you, would they be able to see you visit the person you jailed?
If someone watched your target, would they see you jailing the target?
If someone bus drivered your target, would the bus fail since you jailed? or would your jail be on the new target?

I protect from harm and roleblock, I don't protect from cop checks as far as I know, so results should come through as normal.
I assume so.
I assume so.
Why would anyone want to know this except a scum bus driver wanting to switch out who I am protecting so they die, so they can "disprove" my claim and lynch me? +1 to scum read. This is the only problem with stating ahead of time who ultra should shoot/I should jail, is that in a non-vanilla game scum is sure to have things like a roleblocker and/or busdriver (and yes, scum could have them at the same time as town in a game like this).

Could you not assume, and please look for mod confirmation thanks.

[StorrZerg]

My change of stance on strike wolf. (the hidden wolf)

show

End points. No strong stance end of Day 1. Got claims from several people, each time he backed off the claims, with out actually looking at the person, judging to see if that persons alignment was town or scum.
Strong issue with how he is handling the hotshot/storr situation. Specially how he votes hotshot to get the claim, leaves out information regarding who influenced his decision, fails to point out the good points i made, hammers several points i made against hotshot as bad points.
Isn't following up with issues he has about hotshot.
Several points against me seem almost ludicrous (me not posting about hotshots failure to post when he was online)