Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri [warned]

[Rodion]

You're accusing the wrong person, Bones. If Josko sits for his clanmate when he has 5 minutes or 1 hour (or another "low time") remaining, he did what he was supposed to do: represent his friend so the turn is not missed. You should instead be accusing the people who allowed that situation to happen, namely Moon and I.

Some of those turns were taken for me in periods in which I had no internet access. That happened quite a lot in the beginning of the year until I switched my internet provider. We have evidence in the KORT forums of when I had to post from my mobile asking for people to take care of me "until internet got back". Gilgamesh is an example I clearly remember, AoM possibly too (as I have one request dating from that day, april 11th). Poison Rome, perhaps, I don't remember.

About Great Lakes and Charleston, it's simply what Monkey said. I usually try to talk to at least one of my teammates before playing the turn. For whatever reason, I was not able to talk about those games on those days (real life gets in the way). When that happens I usually wait (sometimes until the last minute) and play the turns right before I go to bed, but there are exceptional cases in which I'm mentally exhausted and I prefer to throw some ideas around and sleep knowing that I have an apt person to sit for me in case I don't wake up in time to take the turn. I don't think that's against any rule. Even if it is, that's 2 games in my 7-month(ish) period in KORT? Hardly enough to indicate "abuse", as CC's policy on abuses usually requires iteration of the conduct.

[Gold Knight]

but there are exceptional cases.

I think this is the problem. From such a small sample of games that have been posted by Bones, and the long drawn-out KORT-TOFU affair, there are WAY too many "exceptional" cases that need to be stepped in on. I do understand account sitting within a clan; I send PM to clan members of players when I see their time running low occaisionally and have other clanmates cover for me from time-to-time. But this is all done with knowledge ahead of time that a turn may be missed.

For a majority of the turns I've seen josko covered, the excuse "he went to sleep" shouldnt be an accepted excuse. Unless someone is in a 24+ hour coma, they have an opportunity to take their turn at some point during a day. The fact that you and others were unable to communicate before the turn could be taken is also a weak claim: if you're that worried about communiation send a PM or wall post asking for thoughts on a game, if they dont respond in a timely manner it doesnt give someone the OK to sit the turn.

As reptile pointed out, it is kind of sad for the players that consistently allow josko to take so many turns for them. I can't see how any enjoyment is gained personally by allowing another person to play your games, but that's your own perogative I guess. I know Rodion, Moon, and other covered players are talented players and would hate to see this end ugly for everyone...

[Chariot of Fire]

You're accusing the wrong person, Bones. If Josko sits for his clanmate when he has 5 minutes or 1 hour (or another "low time") remaining, he did what he was supposed to do: represent his friend so the turn is not missed. You should instead be accusing the people who allowed that situation to happen, namely Moon and I.

Some of those turns were taken for me in periods in which I had no internet access. That happened quite a lot in the beginning of the year until I switched my internet provider. We have evidence in the KORT forums of when I had to post from my mobile asking for people to take care of me "until internet got back". Gilgamesh is an example I clearly remember, AoM possibly too (as I have one request dating from that day, april 11th). Poison Rome, perhaps, I don't remember.

About Great Lakes and Charleston, it's simply what Monkey said. I usually try to talk to at least one of my teammates before playing the turn. For whatever reason, I was not able to talk about those games on those days (real life gets in the way). When that happens I usually wait (sometimes until the last minute) and play the turns right before I go to bed, but there are exceptional cases in which I'm mentally exhausted and I prefer to throw some ideas around and sleep knowing that I have an apt person to sit for me in case I don't wake up in time to take the turn. I don't think that's against any rule. Even if it is, that's 2 games in my 7-month(ish) period in KORT? Hardly enough to indicate "abuse", as CC's policy on abuses usually requires iteration of the conduct.

I think if you were to read the first line of the OP you'll see "Accused : josko.ri and various members of KORT", so the case is being levelled not merely against one individual but against what appears to be a KORT doctrine.

And if you're feeling a bit sleepy do you honestly leave your move for another to take because it's a bit too taxing for you? That's pretty much what you've said.

Josko's wall post ""Hi gonzo, are you around? I am going sleep so prefer sit for you if you don't reply" is hardly josko stepping in at the behest of a team mate (which in itself is wrong if that team mate is capable of taking his own turn) but rather josko playing a key move in a key game because he's going to bed when it's only late afternoon in Gonzoland.

The questions to be addressed are:
- do members of your clan wait for josko's advice in their games?
- do you leave it until the last minute whilst waiting for that advice?
- do you leave it to josko to take your turns if said advice has not been received in time?

I think the answer to each of the above is "Yes" - there is even written evidence to prove it.

Now...do players on this site consider this to be fair conduct and within the scope of sitting privileges, or is this infact a gross abuse of the system?

p.s. and like Gold Knight I too check on clan games and if I'm going to bed and notice the clock getting low I'll either wallpost (or PM if I need to send a p/w) a fellow clanmate and say "Hey, keep an eye on Game XYZ would you. Just x hours left" - it happens a lot, especially given my time zone, but it doesn't mean I'll resort to playing the turn as the opportunity is given to a player to turn up and make his own move.

[owenshooter]

this post by chariot blew my mind... wow... 60 games?!!! this is great information to tack onto the original complaint...-the black McGiver

As members of TOFU we had a very bad experience in our challenge with KORT, due in the most part to the habitual sitting by josko of others' accounts. I regret in hindsight having not taken action when instances such as Game 7625904 came to light (we chose instead to just make our concerns known in gamechat rather than take it to any authority). Here was a player, Moonchild, being entered into games when he was away on holiday! Needless to say josko conveniently sat those turns for him. As the alarming regularity of sitting continued we then made our concerns known to KORT who, instead of keeping it in check, opted to write a script instead which posted "josko for <player's name>" every time a turn was taken. Ha ha, funny joke. Of course it was at that point we filed a complaint and the script they had written came to light.

I'm not going to list the game numbers - there are 60 of them - but you could pick virtually any one of the TOFU-KORT games and find examples of josko sitting. To his credit he does at least announce it in gamechat, though that will probably now cease as Bones pointed out:

One of my biggest concerns (with the lack of a good account sitting function built into the site) is that posting when you play for someone will just stop altogether, now.

Here are a few choice posts made on josko's wall from his clanmates:

19/4 (18/4 USA time)
Thanks for looking out, you are welcome to sit if time is dwindling.

19/4 (18/4 USA time)
Did you take my turn at the same time as me? I attacked but someone else forted.

(the reply from josko was "Yes. Sorry I didn't know you come. I just go sleep")

And this on agonzos' wall from josko (19/4)

"Hi gonzo, are you around? I am going sleep so prefer sit for you if you don't reply"


So what's the deal here? If I'm going to bed can I go and sit all my clanmates' turns before I retire? Can I play their moves even when they themselves are in mid-turn?

There's never smoke without fire and I think Bones has made a compelling case supported by a weight of evidence. I also know that both he and I are not alone in harbouring concern about what has been going on and I hope some of those others will also lend weight to this report.

The facility to sit for another is a privilege - it's not a right and it is not there to be abused to gain an unfair advantage which has clearly been the case in KORT clan games for the past nine months at least.

[Chariot of Fire]

Apologies Owen if you misconstrued. What I meant was there were 60 games played in our challenge - making it quite a job to wade through them all - but of those 60 you could probably find an example of josko sitting if you picked any one at random (which is what I meant to convey in that sentence).

Maybe it was just 59 lol. Sure felt like it.

[niMic]

And if you're feeling a bit sleepy do you honestly leave your move for another to take because it's a bit too taxing for you? That's pretty much what you've said.

Is it really, CoF? Is it really "pretty much" what he said?

Maybe I should quote that part of his post, in case you simply forgot its contents in the time it took you to quote it yourself and write your reply.

but there are exceptional cases in which I'm mentally exhausted and I prefer to throw some ideas around and sleep knowing that I have an apt person to sit for me in case I don't wake up in time to take the turn

As for the opening post.. Bones has clearly been very thorough in his search, and yet he's only quoted some 20 odd posts. That might seem a lot, but rather less so when you keep in mind it's spanning almost a year. To be fair, the first one is quite a bit before the others, but even discounting that one this basically takes place during half a year. And the vast majority of the examples concern two players, both of whom are good friends of him, and very common teammates of him. Most of them are also, as he himself showed, done within an hour of the turn expiring.

In addition to all of this, josko is perhaps the most active player in KoRT. He might even be one of the most active players on this entire site; he spends a ridiculous amount of time discussing and playing the game. So I don't accept the conclusion that this somehow represents a pattern of anything.

[owenshooter]

In addition to all of this, josko is perhaps the most active player in KoRT. He might even be one of the most active players on this entire site; he spends a ridiculous amount of time discussing and playing the game. So I don't accept the conclusion that this somehow represents a pattern of anything.

people said the same thing about blitz... it doesn't mean a thing. if Bones complaint has merit, the mods will sniff it out and hand out a punishment. vouching for someone's character means very little in C&A... bones did some thorough work and that trumps pretty much any "he is a great and active member" angle that anyone can come at him with. this is very interesting... it deserves to be looked at in earnest...-the black Bo Peep

[Kinnison]

As for the opening post.. Bones has clearly been very thorough in his search, and yet he's only quoted some 20 odd posts. That might seem a lot, but rather less so when you keep in mind it's spanning almost a year. To be fair, the first one is quite a bit before the others, but even discounting that one this basically takes place during half a year-(snip)-So I don't accept the conclusion that this somehow represents a pattern of anything.

As you said to Chariot of Fire, "Maybe I should quote that part of his post, in case you simply forgot its contents in the time it took you to quote it yourself and write your reply."

I just want to reiterate: These examples are only from the G1 and THOTA challenges with KORT and Lindax's TLO Tournament, which represent a very small fraction of games played. I do not have the time/energy to search through all the games that there may be abuse happening, but I would not be surprised to find out this is happening in a much broader sense in other challenges and tournaments.

[Chariot of Fire]

Did I say I was quoting ad verbatim? No. I was paraphrasing, which "pretty much what he said" implies.

Just for clarification then, he's too mentally exhausted to take his turn (but not so much that he can't throw ideas around first) and will then leave the move for a more capable person to undertake. I think that hits the nail on the head.

In addition to all of this, josko is perhaps the most active player in KoRT. He might even be one of the most active players on this entire site; he spends a ridiculous amount of time discussing and playing the game

We know, hence this report.

So I don't accept the conclusion that this somehow represents a pattern of anything.

I'll help provide you with one after doing some further research. It goes along the lines of 'josko for xxxxx'

[Dako]

The thing is, when you have 50 exceptional cases with 1 person they are no longer exceptional. If you go to sleep knowing you will miss your turn because of that - heck, you should miss it, it was your choice to go to sleep. In our clan, when people are going away and are low on time without advice from teammates - they just play the turn. All of them are capable to do a decent turn, maybe not the best one, but a good one. That shows our strength as a clan, that is why people like to play with us - we put up a fair challenge. In case of KORT it looks like people (G1 and other opponents) are playing versus 1 person only. It just looks to me that those games should not be counted as a clan games. 1 person is not a clan, unless it is AoG ;).

Also, getting exhausted, drunk, hungry, sleepy is not an exceptional case. Exceptional cases are - tsunami, wall fell down on your computer, granny dig out your internet cable, or your have been arrested by cops. Normal life excuses are not exceptional cases - because we all have them. Read the word exceptional - it means uncommon, rare. Is it exceptional to get tired, to sleep at the end of the day? Hell no.

[Chariot of Fire]

Excellent post Dako. It elaborates on exactly what exceptional is supposed to mean. In fact your post is quite exceptional.

tsunami

- (inc earthquake) - Kiwi123 http://www.news.com.au/world/quake-aftershock-hits-christchurch/story-e6frfkyi-1226009960218

wall fell down on your computer

- jakewilliams http://abcnews.go.com/US/tornadoes-storms-tear-south-292-dead/story?id=13474955

granny digs up your internet cable

- Dako http://www.neowin.net/news/75-year-old-granny-cuts-off-the-internet-for-an-entire-country

been arrested by cops

- Shatners Bassoon http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=upiUPI-20071027-130028-1022&show_article=1

Normal life excuses

- Pedronicus http://www.formspring.me/saphyraicygrave/q/1239957132

[karelpietertje]

[Ace Rimmer]

KORT has a history of being anti-account sitting rules. I am no longer a mod but there are numerous statements in the mod forum by the head of KORT (bruceswar) and how he is opposed to having a built-in account sitting feature on CC. I think it's fairly obvious why he would object to having a standard way of covering games and restrictions on account sitting.

[drunkmonkey]

I'm sorry, I'm a bit confused by the title. Is this a C&A complaint against josko, or just another thread for TOFU to flame KORT?

[Chariot of Fire]

You may call it flaming (though you'd be wrong). Some may call it exposing.

Here are some examples from the recent THOTA-KORT challenge:

Game 8293313 2011-01-16 12:14:18 - #1_stunna: josko this turn
Note: this was stunna's first turn in an unlimited fort game, and if there's one common thread in the games in question, it's that the game had either a complex map or unlimited forts. There's also some question of account sitters joining games with stunna's account during that period.

Game 8055674 2010-12-17 12:50:56 - agonzos: clock running down. josko this turn
Note: gonzo was able to play the following turns within the 24 hours:
Game 8086325 2010-12-16 13:36:37 - agonzos received 3 troops for 7 regions
Game 8054787 2010-12-16 22:59:12 - agonzos received 3 troops for 7 regions
Game 8055861 2010-12-16 23:26:32 - agonzos received 3 troops for 11 regions

Plus there was a ton of sitting for poguemahone in the first round (december), by josko and various other cows.

[sonicsteve]

I'm sorry, I'm a bit confused by the title. Is this a C&A complaint against josko, or just another thread for TOFU to flame KORT?

I see no flames from TOFU here, only evidence and reasoned discussion so far.

bones is the complainant and has raised a report where "josko and various members of KORT" are implicated in account sitting abuse. Any evidence about the general attitude of the KORT clan towards account sitting must be relevant and on-topic in the context of that complaint.

The KORT defence team are hot on the case though, and have swung into action with an off-topic image of a cartoon alligator

[khazalid]

long overdue bust.

[comic boy]

I'm sorry, I'm a bit confused by the title. Is this a C&A complaint against josko, or just another thread for TOFU to flame KORT?

If you think this is a grudge thread then you need to explain why precisely the same accusations were made by THOTA during the recent CCup final against KORT, numerous examples of apparent abuse were pointed out in both game chats and the official challenge thread.
We chose at that time to make no complaint , perhaps in hindsight we should have but in any case an investigation is long overdue. Whether any rules were broken is a decision for CC admin but whatever the outcome the important thing is to achieve some clarity , if members of KORT are innocent of these charges then they should be pleased that the opportunity has arisen to back them up and remove the opposite perception.

[basic_man2010_20]

one quick question

i know that in the accoutn sitting section is says something as following not an exact quote as i cant find it but i think last i knew it said ONLY take turn WHEN in JEOPARDY of missing a turn. now most of them was 5 mins to an hour but i saw some that was 5 hours away.... now i dont hitnk that 5 hours is in JEOPARDY of missing a turn now is it?

While I can somewhat understand the theory behind the "only take a turn when in jeopardy of missing", there's the small problem of the definition of Account Sitting Abuse that are in my OP, which is what I feel is the main rule being broken here. I will quote it again just for reference:


yes but there is also the timelime of it if you look at it 5 hours is not JEOPARDY if missing a turn thus he is abuseing the rights of knowing his partners password and is taking turns for his partners while thye have more then enough time to get online and take the turns. so what i was saying was agreeing qith the one who made this post

[SirSebstar]

pff, if i am sitting for someone, 24 hours is a jeopardy.. I check once a day mostly, so whatever i dont do not is not going to be done at all. Obviously in this case the delay in taking turns was the wait for information.. I can see this happen. I hope this means a new sitting tool gets installed before 2012..

[karelpietertje]

I'm sorry, I'm a bit confused by the title. Is this a C&A complaint against josko, or just another thread for TOFU to flame KORT?

If you think this is a grudge thread then you need to explain why precisely the same accusations were made by THOTA during the recent CCup final against KORT, numerous examples of apparent abuse were pointed out in both game chats and the official challenge thread.
We chose at that time to make no complaint , perhaps in hindsight we should have but in any case an investigation is long overdue. Whether any rules were broken is a decision for CC admin but whatever the outcome the important thing is to achieve some clarity , if members of KORT are innocent of these charges then they should be pleased that the opportunity has arisen to back them up and remove the opposite perception.

In my personal opinion, drunkmonkeys question has nothing to do with the accusation itself.
If there is no grudge at all, the only thing we all want is just to settle it, right?
So, instead of creating this thread, which was bound to only generate more heat, why wasn't the evidence collected taken straight to the moderators?

[Bones2484]

So, instead of creating this thread, which was bound to only generate more heat, why wasn't the evidence collected taken straight to the moderators?

I greatly considered doing that and had a very very brief exchange with King Achilles just for fact-gathering purposes to make sure I was heading down a path in my research that would result in something being against the rules. I didn't use any names/games with him, but he indicated that if I could prove this was happening in "more than 1 or 2 games in extreme circumstances" then I would have a case that would be looked in to.

As for not submitting this privately I decided against it for the main reason that both TOFU and THOTA had attempted to do this privately and got shot down by the hunters they contacted. I figured that this needed to be brought out for everyone that has experiences with it to discuss all in one spot to prove that this is a problem and shouldn't be ignored or swept under the rug.

[comic boy]

I'm sorry, I'm a bit confused by the title. Is this a C&A complaint against josko, or just another thread for TOFU to flame KORT?

If you think this is a grudge thread then you need to explain why precisely the same accusations were made by THOTA during the recent CCup final against KORT, numerous examples of apparent abuse were pointed out in both game chats and the official challenge thread.
We chose at that time to make no complaint , perhaps in hindsight we should have but in any case an investigation is long overdue. Whether any rules were broken is a decision for CC admin but whatever the outcome the important thing is to achieve some clarity , if members of KORT are innocent of these charges then they should be pleased that the opportunity has arisen to back them up and remove the opposite perception.

In my personal opinion, drunkmonkeys question has nothing to do with the accusation itself.
If there is no grudge at all, the only thing we all want is just to settle it, right?
So, instead of creating this thread, which was bound to only generate more heat, why wasn't the evidence collected taken straight to the moderators?

I dont disagree that more drama is created this way but its how it has always been done, this section was specificaly created for the purpose so it makes sense to utilise it I guess. Do certain people get hung out to dry , yes but mostly they deserve it

[lord voldemort]

the only thing i see this not getting a bust is that when this was all going down during tofu challenge...we as hunters had a good long hard look at the account sitting patterns of all of kort.
Forgive me for not remembering exactly what our decision was then...it seams likely they will change it now

though I for one believe he is abusing the system...

it would just be super helpful if the turtle worked on account sitting....even though the hard part is the logistical rule side of things

[khazalid]

be helpful if 'the turtle' worked on anything other than scratching his shell