Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri [warned]

[owenshooter]

We, KORT, dont need to cheat for playing games/clanwars. And surely dont have intention for winning games/wars unfairly.

see, but the problem is, people have given concrete evidence of abuse and you have not really offered a defense other than, "we don't cheat." do you see where the problem lies with that? the last person to be let off the hook due to "reputation" was sits-a-holic, and they came back and actually looked at the evidence and we all know what happened to him. unless you put up some evidence, your defense doesn't hold much water...-el Jesus negro

[niMic]

We, KORT, dont need to cheat for playing games/clanwars. And surely dont have intention for winning games/wars unfairly.

see, but the problem is, people have given concrete evidence of abuse and you have not really offered a defense other than, "we don't cheat." do you see where the problem lies with that? the last person to be let off the hook due to "reputation" was sits-a-holic, and they came back and actually looked at the evidence and we all know what happened to him. unless you put up some evidence, your defense doesn't hold much water...-el Jesus negro

Do you really think Josko would be let off the hook for "reputation"? Josko? He's not exactly the darling of the community, however unfair that may be.

As for the constant demands that evidence needs to be publicly shown.. maybe the C&A guys need to do their job and either post the evidence publicly if they intend to, or start moderating this thread if they don't. Why is it on us? The evidence has been sent to everyone who should have it, they need to decide what to do with it. For all I know they wouldn't like us making the entire defense known.

[eddie2]

We, KORT, dont need to cheat for playing games/clanwars. And surely dont have intention for winning games/wars unfairly.

lol i got 3 words and you asked for this.


kort v tofu

[gameplayer]

We, KORT, dont need to cheat for playing games/clanwars. And surely dont have intention for winning games/wars unfairly.
All we want is to have fun and play some games/wars together. And this is what we do !
Sometimes we win, sometimes we dont. We beat you fair ! Not the first time and it will not be the last time.
Well, actually i hope we will never play you again.
Very dissappointing to see this childish behaviour of some members of G1.

"We beat you fair"? Are you implying that G1 is somehow upset that we lost this clan war, and is turning this into some sort of petty revenge thread? I don't think you understand G1 very well because that's not the way our clan works. We like to do our best to go out and win every challenge, but we know we probably aren't going win every challenge, especially against the top tier clans, and we like to have fun more than anything else. We've lost plenty of clans wars before and accepted those losses gladly, because the games were fun and enjoyable for both sides. This post by bart sums it up pretty well, made in the kort thread before the challenge even started:

There are clans that require minimum scores to join or want to only take generals or some things like that. There are others that will accept lower ranks but won't let them play in challenges etc. That isn't our way and never will be. It isn't that we don't want to win, we do. However, one of the guiding ideals of G1 has been that everyone should participate in clan wars, events, forums, etc as much as they'd like to. Would we fare better in clan leagues and wars if we sent out ZionT, BaldAdonis, Timminz, Bones2484, Hath, Gameplayer and Tripitaka more often? Probably so, but that isn't the way we've done things in the past and its not the way we're going to do things in the future. That isn't to say that those clans that do things this way are wrong. They do what's right for them, it just isn't right for us.

This thread isn't about the final score of the challenge. This is about a player coming in and ruining the spirit of the game by taking many turns for other players when they were capable of taking the turns themselves. G1 thinks this is against the rules of the site, which is why we posted the C&A report in the first place. 17 pages later, we haven't had a straight answer from KORT as to why josko is taking all the turns when the players are perfectly capable of taking the turns themselves. Sure, there have been one or few small explanations, "I was tired and fell asleep" kinds of things, but they don't explain such a broad pattern of abuse, and they don't even justify the sitting of the turns in the first place. This thread has been sitting here for three weeks now with all sorts of players derailing the thread, attacking certain clans or members, and arguing petty semantics, but I haven't seen a single concrete explanation for the original accusation. Before the thread went crazy, the debate was something like this:
KORT members have a habit of consulting with their teammates before taking their turns, which often results in them running low on time. The players are online during their allotted 24 hours, but don't take their turn because they want to talk to their teammate. However, "something" happens, they don't take their turn, the teammate comes on with only a few hours left on the clock and takes the turn for them. This has been documented happening in at least 16 games in the last year, with previous complaints from other clans going back further than that. The question is, is it okay for players to be in a habit of doing this, or is it against account sitting rules, because the player was on during the 24 hour time period and chose not to take their turn? Hopefully a firm line can be drawn on this case so this sort of matter can be firmly moderated in the future.

[Chuuuuck]

However, I do believe that the C&A hunters should make the entire defense public for it to be picked apart by the court of public opinion.

The problem here is that the public is neither fair, nor balanced, nor free of malice - especially in regard to the people involved in this report.

The CC "court of public opinion" is a kangaroo court. For proof of this, please review any previous high-profile post in the C&A forum.

(Edit: Also, please review the usefulness, thoughtful contributions, and carefully considered judgement and evaluation of the facts presented in the post immediately following mine.)

I completely agree Foxxy that the public is not always fair and balanced, but the way their system is set up, it is up to the public to bring evidence and charges in any abuse case. You can not reasonably ask two parties to debate a topic if you shield one party from being knowledgeable of what is even being said in the debate.

[barterer2002]

We, KORT, dont need to cheat for playing games/clanwars. And surely dont have intention for winning games/wars unfairly.
All we want is to have fun and play some games/wars together. And this is what we do !
Sometimes we win, sometimes we dont. We beat you fair ! Not the first time and it will not be the last time.

I've always had great respect for KORT as player and I enjoy playing against them as great challenges and an opportunity to better my own game (something i need to pay more attention to I think).

I totally agree that KORT doesn't need to cheat, you have enough quality players to play fairly and win. Rodion himself is a General and certainly knows enough about the games and strategy to win.

The question then is why is josko taking his turns.

Now, KORT may not think that this is cheating and they may be right, I don't know but if the idea here is that 1 teammate can take all the turns in a team game whenever they "need" to then doesn't that cheapen the team aspect of the game. Do we have Quad games coming where there is one controller and 3 puppets in a Josko vs. Blitz type of thing? While I would certainly love to see a 1v1 quad format we don't have that yet.

In this case josko is certainly the poster boy but I doubt it limited to him or to KORT. Its clearly an issue that its good to debate. If we want to make a situation where the clan wars become wars between the top two players in each clan controlling all the participants then by all means lets do that but lets be open about it.

[Metsfanmax]

I completely agree Foxxy that the public is not always fair and balanced, but the way their system is set up, it is up to the public to bring evidence and charges in any abuse case. You can not reasonably ask two parties to debate a topic if you shield one party from being knowledgeable of what is even being said in the debate.

Once the evidence and charges have been brought up, does there need to actually be a debate of interpretation? It seems that this implies that the C&A team does not have the capability of understanding what's going on by themselves.

There were dozens of pages of posts on the Blitz thread but ultimately most of them were entirely irrelevant to the decision -- only the ones that provided factual information that had not yet been disclosed.

[Night Strike]

I completely agree Foxxy that the public is not always fair and balanced, but the way their system is set up, it is up to the public to bring evidence and charges in any abuse case. You can not reasonably ask two parties to debate a topic if you shield one party from being knowledgeable of what is even being said in the debate.

Once the evidence and charges have been brought up, does there need to actually be a debate of interpretation? It seems that this implies that the C&A team does not have the capability of understanding what's going on by themselves.

There were dozens of pages of posts on the Blitz thread but ultimately most of them were entirely irrelevant to the decision -- only the ones that provided factual information that had not yet been disclosed.

When the C&A is making a decision based on interpretation of the rules, in my opinion, it makes sense to get feedback on how the community interprets the rules. That way they can either correct misinterpretations or get help formulating their own opinion on the situation as chances are they have never actually had to make a decision on a case like this one.

Of course, if KORT posted their defense to the public, if it's convincing enough, maybe even the accusers will drop the complaint. But alas, they're not allowed that option.

[Metsfanmax]

I completely agree Foxxy that the public is not always fair and balanced, but the way their system is set up, it is up to the public to bring evidence and charges in any abuse case. You can not reasonably ask two parties to debate a topic if you shield one party from being knowledgeable of what is even being said in the debate.

Once the evidence and charges have been brought up, does there need to actually be a debate of interpretation? It seems that this implies that the C&A team does not have the capability of understanding what's going on by themselves.

There were dozens of pages of posts on the Blitz thread but ultimately most of them were entirely irrelevant to the decision -- only the ones that provided factual information that had not yet been disclosed.

When the C&A is making a decision based on interpretation of the rules, in my opinion, it makes sense to get feedback on how the community interprets the rules. That way they can either correct misinterpretations or get help formulating their own opinion on the situation as chances are they have never actually had to make a decision on a case like this one.

Of course, if KORT posted their defense to the public, if it's convincing enough, maybe even the accusers will drop the complaint. But alas, they're not allowed that option.

Well, this is a fair point. The problem that I see is that many of the people in this thread have not been able to contain themselves from turning into a clan war; that's the problem I have with these public debates, is that many seem to want to turn it into an attack against a person or a group of people rather than a chance to be part of establishing a set of rules that affects everyone in the community equally. After all, although josko is in the public eye here, undoubtedly there have been instances in the past in other clans where people probably toed the line for what is acceptable sitting behavior, because there does not seem to be a clear guideline. I hope that this case will establish that guideline, but in any case, I also hope people will see it for what it is, and not take it as an opportunity to bash other people. That's what GD is for guys

[sonicsteve]

...many of the people in this thread have not been able to contain themselves from turning into a clan war; ... many seem to want to turn it into an attack against a person or a group of people rather than a chance to be part of establishing a set of rules ...

Have to disagree with you here, mets.

Firstly I don't believe this has turned into a clan war, of course the clans are naturally the interested parties since the alleged cheating occurred in clan wars, but there has been an absolute minimum of trolling, baiting and flaming. On the contrary most of the posts are well thought out and some good evidence has been brought.

Secondly, I firmly believe the defence should be posted here for public appraisal. If, on reading the defence case, people are unable to contain themselves from launching a clan war, then the thread should be locked and offenders dealt with in the normal way.

C&A shouldn't avoid posting the defence evidence just in case it causes a riot when no riot was caused by the prosecution evidence.

[barterer2002]

I'm also curious as to where you're seeing a clan war. Do you have any examples of this?

[Metsfanmax]

...many of the people in this thread have not been able to contain themselves from turning into a clan war; ... many seem to want to turn it into an attack against a person or a group of people rather than a chance to be part of establishing a set of rules ...

Have to disagree with you here, mets.

Firstly I don't believe this has turned into a clan war, of course the clans are naturally the interested parties since the alleged cheating occurred in clan wars, but there has been an absolute minimum of trolling, baiting and flaming. On the contrary most of the posts are well thought out and some good evidence has been brought.

Based on the posts I've read, the relevant parties are less interested in setting an actual example for all clans to follow than in indicting josko and his friends for a practice that surely occurs in all clans to some extent. The fact that they have done this without using inflammatory language is to be commended, but I still see this as too narrow in its focus. This should be about all clans, not just the one with the most flagrant violation (at least, that we know of).

[Night Strike]

...many of the people in this thread have not been able to contain themselves from turning into a clan war; ... many seem to want to turn it into an attack against a person or a group of people rather than a chance to be part of establishing a set of rules ...

Have to disagree with you here, mets.

Firstly I don't believe this has turned into a clan war, of course the clans are naturally the interested parties since the alleged cheating occurred in clan wars, but there has been an absolute minimum of trolling, baiting and flaming. On the contrary most of the posts are well thought out and some good evidence has been brought.

Based on the posts I've read, the relevant parties are less interested in setting an actual example for all clans to follow than in indicting josko and his friends for a practice that surely occurs in all clans to some extent. The fact that they have done this without using inflammatory language is to be commended, but I still see this as too narrow in its focus. This should be about all clans, not just the one with the most flagrant violation (at least, that we know of).

Except the statement that "[it] occurs in all clans to some extent" is not actually true. It's only some clans that do it, and this case is specifically about KORT doing it.

[Metsfanmax]

Except the statement that "[it] occurs in all clans to some extent" is not actually true. It's only some clans that do it, and this case is specifically about KORT doing it.

It was my understanding that the whole problem here is that we don't know to what extent it occurs because of the possibility that people will just stop posting when they sit. Is it possible that this is not a widespread occurrence? Sure. But if it can happen here it can happen in any clan so I think we need to be sure that there results a clear standard set for all clans and not just a punishment against one person who did get caught. Of course, that's up to the C&A mods and the rest of the staff to determine, but that's certainly what I would like to see result from all of this.

[Night Strike]

Except the statement that "[it] occurs in all clans to some extent" is not actually true. It's only some clans that do it, and this case is specifically about KORT doing it.

It was my understanding that the whole problem here is that we don't know to what extent it occurs because of the possibility that people will just stop posting when they sit.

You're right, we don't. But I for one know that G1 does nothing of the sort (hence even the missed turns in our challenge with KORT), so the statement that ALL clans do it is false.

[Bones2484]

the relevant parties are less interested in setting an actual example for all clans to follow than in indicting josko and his friends for a practice that surely occurs in all clans to some extent.

Then you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and implore you to stop making inane assumptions.

I have nothing against KORT or Josko. Before this was brought to my attention in recent games, G1 had already had two great challenges with KORT and was looking forward to the third; I have always found them to be great opponents. KORT is one of the rare clans that doesn't seem to have trolls or hateable members from my direct experiences.

As for "[it] occurs in all clans to some extent" G1 has made it clear multiple times in this thread that we only take turns for someone when they are on vacation. We've stated that no one in the clan has other people's standard passwords and that we only change to temporary passwords to hand to a few people when we are away. As NS pointed out, we (sadly) miss a few turns every challenge because people have real lives and we don't share passwords.

In fact, if you look through the thread, I've even questioned the theory that "top clans all have each other's passwords" and even submitted that question to the C&A team in a private message as I find that to be a potential breach of the rules as well. I haven't heard a response, but I hope we hear their opinions on this matter as well.

You are absolutely correct in your statements about the possibilities of people simply stop announcing when they cover turns for others. The only way we were able to form an argument was because Josko followed the rules in the first place about announcing. Sure we need an account sitting feature, but I also hope the C&A team informs us of how they will fight this in the future knowing the above if this is indeed against the rules.

So, I'm fully in favor of setting an actual example for all clans to follow. At this point, I find the entire clan challenge credibility to be at stake and that would be a serious blow to the advancement of clans as a whole. If anyone finds any other clan doing this, I'd highly encourage them to submit additional C&A reports. Though, I'd suggest that any other threads wait until a ruling on this case just to make sure it actually is against the rules as I believe it is.

[BoganGod]

any ruling expected this year? guess it takes a while to look back through every game played by members of kort for the past how many months? Initial report pretty open ended in naming names. Is that a tactic that is acceptable to use in the future. Are we to look forward to lovely reports along the lines of "Possible secret diplomacy, red and MAYBE everyone else in the game, except myself. Mods please check carefully, I shouldn't have lost". This could get very interesting, what ever the ruling will be setting precedent for the site. Here is hoping that there will be at least a 3paragraph detailed explanation of ruling when it happens. Thanks in advance, the Bogan divinity

Maybe a weekly wrap up from the mods would be super cool

[codeblue1018]

We, KORT, dont need to cheat for playing games/clanwars. And surely dont have intention for winning games/wars unfairly.

see, but the problem is, people have given concrete evidence of abuse and you have not really offered a defense other than, "we don't cheat." do you see where the problem lies with that? the last person to be let off the hook due to "reputation" was sits-a-holic, and they came back and actually looked at the evidence and we all know what happened to him. unless you put up some evidence, your defense doesn't hold much water...-el Jesus negro

Do you really think Josko would be let off the hook for "reputation"? Josko? He's not exactly the darling of the community, however unfair that may be.

As for the constant demands that evidence needs to be publicly shown.. maybe the C&A guys need to do their job and either post the evidence publicly if they intend to, or start moderating this thread if they don't. Why is it on us? The evidence has been sent to everyone who should have it, they need to decide what to do with it. For all I know they wouldn't like us making the entire defense known.

Although I do not know much about the case besides the little ive read, I can tell you from my experience with Josko and a few other members of Kort that they are stand up guys; the main goal is to win and win fairly; the Kort members I played with were polite, very competitive and most important, fair. Again, from my experience, I'd be shocked if any of these alegations come to fruition; I guess we'll all find out soon enough.

Cb

[BoganGod]

We, KORT, dont need to cheat for playing games/clanwars. And surely dont have intention for winning games/wars unfairly.

see, but the problem is, people have given concrete evidence of abuse and you have not really offered a defense other than, "we don't cheat." do you see where the problem lies with that? the last person to be let off the hook due to "reputation" was sits-a-holic, and they came back and actually looked at the evidence and we all know what happened to him. unless you put up some evidence, your defense doesn't hold much water...-el Jesus negro

Do you really think Josko would be let off the hook for "reputation"? Josko? He's not exactly the darling of the community, however unfair that may be.

As for the constant demands that evidence needs to be publicly shown.. maybe the C&A guys need to do their job and either post the evidence publicly if they intend to, or start moderating this thread if they don't. Why is it on us? The evidence has been sent to everyone who should have it, they need to decide what to do with it. For all I know they wouldn't like us making the entire defense known.

Although I do not know much about the case besides the little ive read, I can tell you from my experience with Josko and a few other members of Kort that they are stand up guys; the main goal is to win and win fairly; the Kort members I played with were polite, very competitive and most important, fair. Again, from my experience, I'd be shocked if any of these alegations come to fruition; I guess we'll all find out soon enough.

Cb

With this charactor reference I'm convinced that all members of Kort are saints. I knew bruce was an enlightened bovine, loes is one of the most amazing women on site, masli has a sense of humour(rare in people with funny coloured usernames), but now with no less than a man that has been brig THREE TIMES providing charactor references. I KNOW, I BELIEVE, I've SEEN THE LIGHT!!!!!!!
All jests aside, guess we might have to disregard codeblue's comments, is obviously delusional. Come on, he ended his post with "I guess we'll all find out soon enough". Obviously delusional. Is this thread staying open to hold all clans up for ridicule? Seeing how many people will get in here and play kick the cows? Come on make a ruling already.

[codeblue1018]

We, KORT, dont need to cheat for playing games/clanwars. And surely dont have intention for winning games/wars unfairly.

see, but the problem is, people have given concrete evidence of abuse and you have not really offered a defense other than, "we don't cheat." do you see where the problem lies with that? the last person to be let off the hook due to "reputation" was sits-a-holic, and they came back and actually looked at the evidence and we all know what happened to him. unless you put up some evidence, your defense doesn't hold much water...-el Jesus negro

Do you really think Josko would be let off the hook for "reputation"? Josko? He's not exactly the darling of the community, however unfair that may be.

As for the constant demands that evidence needs to be publicly shown.. maybe the C&A guys need to do their job and either post the evidence publicly if they intend to, or start moderating this thread if they don't. Why is it on us? The evidence has been sent to everyone who should have it, they need to decide what to do with it. For all I know they wouldn't like us making the entire defense known.

Although I do not know much about the case besides the little ive read, I can tell you from my experience with Josko and a few other members of Kort that they are stand up guys; the main goal is to win and win fairly; the Kort members I played with were polite, very competitive and most important, fair. Again, from my experience, I'd be shocked if any of these alegations come to fruition; I guess we'll all find out soon enough.

Cb

With this charactor reference I'm convinced that all members of Kort are saints. I knew bruce was an enlightened bovine, loes is one of the most amazing women on site, masli has a sense of humour(rare in people with funny coloured usernames), but now with no less than a man that has been brig THREE TIMES providing charactor references. I KNOW, I BELIEVE, I've SEEN THE LIGHT!!!!!!!
All jests aside, guess we might have to disregard codeblue's comments, is obviously delusional. Come on, he ended his post with "I guess we'll all find out soon enough". Obviously delusional. Is this thread staying open to hold all clans up for ridicule? Seeing how many people will get in here and play kick the cows? Come on make a ruling already.

LMAO! Bogan, I'll just let that slide instead of embarrassing you in an open forum; keep up the good work; your class is shining brightly so that we may all see your true colors little fella.

[nippersean]

Legally, as the accuser, the onus of proof is yours. You can't take a small sample size and "extrapolate" it. If you think there's more abuse in games you didn't check, you have to check them and find them.

That is what I was referring to. And you can consider the "local children" to be witnesses. Some witnesses are more reliable than others, some shouldn't speak at all - just like real life, eh?

Except there's no "judge" to throw out incorrect evidence, no way to object to hearsay or speculation, or any of the many forms of misdirection that can be used...do you see how absurd the analogy is?

Saying "the onus of proof is yours" is accurate. This isn't a court of law, but if you want to accuse someone, you have to prove they did it. You can't just say "there's probably a bunch more" and make it so. The fact that he used the word "legally" doesn't mean we have to draw out a complete courtroom analogy. In fact, taking that little word to make such a ridiculous argument is one of the forms of misdirection I was referring to. And you wonder why he didn't post the defense publicly.

They all ready posted the proof Josko - it was you

[nippersean]

Every post for the last few pages in this thread has done nothing to help the C&A mods resolve the situation; it has simply been back and forth banter over ground that has already been covered. I do not feel like reporting 100 posts.

Maybe if the members of KORT had posted their defense in public, we could actually be discussing IT rather than discussing why it isn't being posted. Sounds like a winning plan for all sides (except maybe for KORT, but that's to be expected).

Buddy, your attitude is so annoying.
Good there is no medal to gain for the most annoying person of the site.

We, KORT, dont need to cheat for playing games/clanwars. And surely dont have intention for winning games/wars unfairly.
All we want is to have fun and play some games/wars together. And this is what we do !
Sometimes we win, sometimes we dont. We beat you fair ! Not the first time and it will not be the last time.
Well, actually i hope we will never play you again.
Very dissappointing to see this childish behaviour of some members of G1.

But you have cheated sjnap - and systematically - it's proven in this very
thread - read it and you'll see exactly where you cheated.

[king achilles]

After looking into the evidence and defense that was presented to us, the following players have been warned for account sitting abuse:

josko.ri
Moonchild
Rodion

A user or group of users who loosely share their accounts among one another to improve their score and gaming by means of strategically allowing others to take their turns for them at specific times, or allowing well versed and ranked users to essentially play select games on their account for them to boost their score and rank, is another facet of Account Sitting Abuse.

So far, the case has it's point to show us that there are players out there who loosely share their passwords with one another so that they can take care of each other's accounts. This practice is bordering in account sharing and influences the account owners to be less responsible of their games, since they already have this thinking that someone is going to save them from missing at least one turn or more.

For this case, at some point, josko.ri could/should have simply told the other players to stop relying on him to take turns for them. Account sitting is for a definite period of time and NOT for an indefinite period. You can't assign an account sitter to account sit for you for as long as his blood is running into his veins. Then you can now sleep soundly whenever or do other stuff because you know he is going to save you from missing a turn. If you are capable of taking your turn, then take it. Do not make someone be responsible for your own account or lean too much for his advise.

Should we be thankful when you are on vacation, and you are supposedly not available to be online at the time, but you still manage to take some turns while leaving other games for your sitter? Perhaps it just gives more complication as it becomes suspicious if you really are unavailable in the first place or if you just assigned someone to play some specific games for you.

We know that people share their passwords with others in case of emergency. Some may also be guilty of playing other people's turns even when not needed simply because they have free access to that account. How can this be controlled? We certainly do not want to discourage people not posting in the game chat if they are sitting for someone for fear of any possible issues regarding account sitting. Until a sitter feature is encoded, it would be impossible to control this practice and it mostly falls on you not to abuse your privileges or share your accounts with one another.

[Ace Rimmer]

And you can do it with impunity until you have been warned, since the first step on the escalating scale is a warning, no matter how much you do it.

[Bones2484]

And you can do it with impunity until you have been warned, since the first step on the escalating scale is a warning, no matter how much you do it.

Which is a shame since it had been originally reported and brought to admin attention almost a year ago...

But you're right. This was the best-case scenario for those of us who thought this was against the rules. At least we have it in writing now and hopefully if anyone else is doing this, they will stop. I just fear that people will stop announcing when they sit just to avoid any penalties in the first place.

This case alone should be proof enough that a sitting feature is needed immediately. Otherwise clan challenges and team tournaments are going to quickly lose any credibility that they may have left.