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Account sitting abuse - Chariot of Fire, Pedronicus [warned]

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Re: Account sitting abuse - Chariot of Fire, Pedronicus [war

Postby Rodion on Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:56 am

That's an interesting defense, but it is mostly based on appeal to reputation. It doesn't work that way against undeniable evidence (check the Commander62890 case for reference).

For instance, I'll give you 2 clear cut cases (in my view). And that is only considering 2011, your clan got a huge freebie with this abuse prescription of not really considering things from 2010, but I digress.

Game 9157574 - the point here is that account sitting parts from the premise that a player will not be able to take the turn for himself. There are 12 posts that can be used as evidence that Dako HAD access before his 24-hour deadline would expire and therefore your sitting was not in compliance to the strict CC sitting guidelines ("only sit if in danger of missing the turn").

Game 8687933 - same as above, but change "12 posts after the sitting took place" for "11 posts before the sitting took place".

As a reminder, you were pretty quick in condemning KoRT back in the Josko case.
Bones' case on KoRT basically had logs of forum posts and other played games showing that the players that Josko had sat for were online in the 24-hour span of the turn.
Here, Josko's case on TOFU basically has logs of forum posts and other played games showing that the players that CoF had sat for were online in the 24-hour span of the turn.
A different ruling would defy both logic and law.
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Re: Account sitting abuse - Chariot of Fire, Pedronicus [war

Postby BoganGod on Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:20 am

Please forgive me if I haven't gotten the wording entirely correct here. Something Dako posted in either this or the josko.ri case.
"This should be looked on as sitting abuse rather than cheating, no one is suggesting that the player deliberately attempted to gain an unfair advantage." I think that would be safe to say about both this case, and the case against josko.ri. Dako please forgive me if I've paraphrased you incorrectly.

I don't have an axe to grind against the convicted in this thread, or against josko.ri. I can understand josko.ri's anger and frustration - the thread accusing him remained open and went to multiple pages, his name was dragged through the mud and has become a joke, and a tool for people to bait fellow members of Kort. You can't tell me that was fair. After some very intense lobbying by tofu, this thread was locked whilst CoF was on holiday. Lucky for him, as I'm sure this thread would have blown out to 20+ pages of partisan posturing, and jealous character assassination.

Essentially C&A has become a kangaroo court of popular opinion. Used to bring spiteful and vindictive claims forward in a petty attempt to ruin players reputation. If people really cared about the game, they would be making these types of accusations using E-Tickets.

In the words of jefjef - When you sling shit expect some to stick you and the smell to follow wherever you roam...

There have been a lot of personal grudge motivated threads in here of late, and this forum smells like shit.

I don't believe the CoF takes all the tofu turns. Nor do I believe that josko.ri takes all the Kort turns. Both of them would be mad to even want to, let alone attempt to do so.

Lets hope for the communities sake, and the clan community in particular. That this is the last public character assassination thread we see in here in a long time.
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Re: Account sitting abuse - Chariot of Fire, Pedronicus [war

Postby lord voldemort on Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:27 am

Until the site develop a sitter rule...or come up with clear cut sitting rules on what can and cannot be done....they simply cant warn or punish players for these grey area issues.

And as for josko...my understanding was his intent of the sitting as well as adding people (moonchild?) to games when he was absent from the site for a significant period of time
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Re: Account sitting abuse - Chariot of Fire, Pedronicus [war

Postby drunkmonkey on Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:36 am

lord voldemort wrote:And as for josko...my understanding was his intent of the sitting as well as adding people (moonchild?) to games when he was absent from the site for a significant period of time


Your misunderstanding is another reason this whole situation has become a joke. Hell, the part in bold wasn't even mentioned in josko's case.

Edit: I found it mentioned by CoF a couple times in the thread, but it had nothing to do with the case being investigated, nor the verdict.
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Re: Account sitting abuse - Chariot of Fire, Pedronicus [war

Postby lord voldemort on Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:45 am

Im quite sure it had something to do with the case...seeing as i helped with the ruling at the time
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Re: Account sitting abuse - Chariot of Fire, Pedronicus [war

Postby Ace Rimmer on Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:48 am

AndyDufresne wrote:Account-Sitting:

* Players are allowed to account-sit for others as long as they are not opponents within the game. When sitting for a player, you need to post who you are and how long you will be sitting for the player so that other players in the game are aware of who they are actually playing.
* Being on another player's account for ANY reasons other than taking turns when they are in danger of missing a turn, or posting to necessary Tournament or Clan related public forum topics, is not allowed. Abuse of this privilege can be considered account sharing and could result in a Bust for both accounts.


Rodion wrote:Game 9157574 - the point here is that account sitting parts from the premise that a player will not be able to take the turn for himself. There are 12 posts that can be used as evidence that Dako HAD access before his 24-hour deadline would expire and therefore your sitting was not in compliance to the strict CC sitting guidelines ("only sit if in danger of missing the turn").


I disagree with your interpretation of the CC sitting guidelines, and that this is abuse. There is nothing that says it has to be within the last hour of the gameclock or anything like that. For example, right now I am sitting for trapyoung (who is away from the site for an extended period of time). In Game 9080587 I am not waiting 23 hours to take his turn, as I know I'll be taking it regardless of how long it waits. If I do not take the turn, it will be missed as he is away. In this case, Dako tells CoF (AND OTHERS) that he will be away for 36 hours and asks them to take his turns. CoF takes one, not worrying about the gameclock. Dako returns earlier than planned and posts in the forum. At the time that CoF took the turns, it was not account sitting abuse - Dako was expected to be away, and nothing in the rules states that you must wait to account sit for someone.

Also in case anyone is looking for it, here is KA's verdict on josko's case: viewtopic.php?f=239&t=145859&hilit=josko.ri&start=255#p3229429
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Re: Account sitting abuse - Chariot of Fire, Pedronicus [war

Postby skillfull on Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:52 am

I say let's stop this fighting and start enjoying CC like we did before all this mess started.
I have done sitting for monkis since i joined TSM hundreds of times and i am sure most of you have done the same.
I am neither with Si nor with Josko on this fight, I am just saying that this is only a game and we play it for fun.So let's make a friendly tourney and all these guys who have written here could participate in teams of 2's or 3's or 4's.
I dont understand why some guys of CC community accuse both Josko and Cof and not me, since I have done the same .When you sat for someone you never wait till the time gets down to 2-3hours cause you simply have a life and you cant be logged in all day.

PS. Let's focus on the fighting inside the games and not on this one guys.
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Re: Account sitting abuse - Chariot of Fire, Pedronicus [war

Postby Ace Rimmer on Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:58 am

Leehar wrote:CoF mentioned as one of his main points that he's a sitter primarily because of availability and reliability, and not for tactical advantage, but how does that differ from josko's sitting on a relatively frequent basis?


Josko was not found guilty because he is most available or sits frequently, but because his teammates (Rodion and moonchild) chose to allow him to take their turns when they did not know his plans. They intentionally left turns for josko to play.


Leehar wrote:With regards to the vindictiveness aspect, that seems to be fairly obvious, and it just seems to be a repetitive cycle from the beginning of the tofu-kort saga, tofu complain about josko for ... notes, kort don't back down on disqualification criteria etc etc where nobody is completely comfortable in dropping it. This particular subject seems to be as a result of seemingly double standards exhibited from the initial josko case by tofu, whereby there was supposed culpability on their part already, as evidenced here.


Why do you feel that the josko abuse case/verdict has anything to do with TOFU? G1 put in the report, not TOFU. G1 asked TOFU for additional information which we provided. If we wanted to pursue a C&A case against josko for the TOFU/KORT clan war, we would have done so at the time of the war. We chose to not say anything after all the other shit went down between us. This report is vindictiveness of josko, not TOFU.
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Re: Account sitting abuse - Chariot of Fire, Pedronicus [war

Postby Bones2484 on Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:06 am

Ace Rimmer wrote:
Leehar wrote:CoF mentioned as one of his main points that he's a sitter primarily because of availability and reliability, and not for tactical advantage, but how does that differ from josko's sitting on a relatively frequent basis?


Josko was not found guilty because he is most available or sits frequently, but because his teammates (Rodion and moonchild) chose to allow him to take their turns when they did not know his plans. They intentionally left turns for josko to play.


This ^. Without Rodion admitting to this in a game chat, we never would have even considered doing the research in the first place.

And you can also mark me down as someone who will take turns for my clanmates sooner than their turn is about to expire if they are on vacation and not able to access the site. It is completely moronic to expect sitters to take turns at all hours of the day just to make sure turns are taken within the last hour. If someone is away, I am only logging into their account maybe once per day to push back all turns they currently have active. The only reason I listed the time remaining in my post against Josko was to get a timeframe between when players were active so I could check it against forum posts and other games; it had nothing to do with making sure he was taking turns within the last hour.

But like I said on one of the earlier pages here, I have not done research on this case and don't ever intend to do it. My only thought at this time is wondering why they seemed to have made a ruling before CoF made his defense? Was it done in private or did the mods choose to not wait for him to return like was asked very early on?
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Re: Account sitting abuse - Chariot of Fire, Pedronicus [war

Postby drunkmonkey on Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:08 am

Ace Rimmer wrote:
Leehar wrote:CoF mentioned as one of his main points that he's a sitter primarily because of availability and reliability, and not for tactical advantage, but how does that differ from josko's sitting on a relatively frequent basis?


Josko was not found guilty because he is most available or sits frequently, but because his teammates (Rodion and moonchild) chose to allow him to take their turns when they did not know his plans. They intentionally left turns for josko to play.


Did you overlook the several wall chats posted, where Pedronicus was online while his turn was up, but asked CoF to play for him? Look back at the first page:
"running out of time in that 13 colonies game. just over and hour left"
"to be honest Si, there are 3 games that at this moment in time are live and I'm off to the regionals (poker) tomorrow and I have no idea I'll be home before the time runs out. Could you take my turn on my 3 games at the top of my list? Thanks"

and my personal favorite,
"I'm going now. Left europa for you just in case your dice can swing some sort of advantage"
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Re: Account sitting abuse - Chariot of Fire, Pedronicus [war

Postby Foxglove on Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:24 am

King Achilles precedent-setting previous ruling wrote:A user or group of users who loosely share their accounts among one another to improve their score and gaming by means of strategically allowing others to take their turns for them at specific times, or allowing well versed and ranked users to essentially play select games on their account for them to boost their score and rank, is another facet of Account Sitting Abuse.

So far, the case has it's point to show us that there are players out there who loosely share their passwords with one another so that they can take care of each other's accounts. This practice is bordering in account sharing and influences the account owners to be less responsible of their games, since they already have this thinking that someone is going to save them from missing at least one turn or more.

For this case, at some point, [player] could/should have simply told the other players to stop relying on him to take turns for them. Account sitting is for a definite period of time and NOT for an indefinite period. You can't assign an account sitter to account sit for you for as long as his blood is running into his veins. Then you can now sleep soundly whenever or do other stuff because you know he is going to save you from missing a turn. If you are capable of taking your turn, then take it. Do not make someone be responsible for your own account or lean too much for his advise.

Should we be thankful when you are on vacation, and you are supposedly not available to be online at the time, but you still manage to take some turns while leaving other games for your sitter? Perhaps it just gives more complication as it becomes suspicious if you really are unavailable in the first place or if you just assigned someone to play some specific games for you.

We know that people share their passwords with others in case of emergency. Some may also be guilty of playing other people's turns even when not needed simply because they have free access to that account. How can this be controlled? We certainly do not want to discourage people not posting in the game chat if they are sitting for someone for fear of any possible issues regarding account sitting. Until a sitter feature is encoded, it would be impossible to control this practice and it mostly falls on you not to abuse your privileges or share your accounts with one another.
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Re: Account sitting abuse - Chariot of Fire, Pedronicus [war

Postby denthefrog on Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:29 am

i agree 100% with bogan and skillfull posts =D> =D> =D>

i dont believe anybody tried to cheat, just trying to be a good clan member

and FFS its only a game, most of us are here for fun
lets keep it that way pls
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Re: Account sitting abuse - Chariot of Fire, Pedronicus [war

Postby jefjef on Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:33 am

There were strategic turns taken and CoF was caught. Warning issued and time to move forward.
This post was made by jefjef who should be on your ignore list.
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Re: Account sitting abuse - Chariot of Fire, Pedronicus [war

Postby #1_stunna on Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:01 am

Image
12:17:31 ‹Pixar› im gonna be fappin to that all night long
10:59:12 ‹rhp 1› holy hell... that did it.. I pissed myself
15:15:52 ‹Ace Rimmer› Sackett58, I think I may get some action this weekend
15:16:05 ‹Sackett58› Right hand or left Ace?
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Re: Account sitting abuse - Chariot of Fire, Pedronicus [war

Postby Ace Rimmer on Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:03 am

#1_stunna wrote:Image


is that josko?
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Re: Account sitting abuse - Chariot of Fire, Pedronicus [war

Postby Frop on Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:04 am

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Last edited by Frop on Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Account sitting abuse - Chariot of Fire, Pedronicus [war

Postby #1_stunna on Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:05 am

Ace Rimmer wrote:
#1_stunna wrote:Image


is that josko?


It's a Bull Shitting.
12:17:31 ‹Pixar› im gonna be fappin to that all night long
10:59:12 ‹rhp 1› holy hell... that did it.. I pissed myself
15:15:52 ‹Ace Rimmer› Sackett58, I think I may get some action this weekend
15:16:05 ‹Sackett58› Right hand or left Ace?
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Re: Account sitting abuse - Chariot of Fire, Pedronicus [war

Postby eddie2 on Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:16 am

lol this thread turned funny. But one thing i have noticed is that a lot of clans are using the excuse that sitting comes under tourney rules. where sitters are allowed to sign up for games. this part does need to be confirmed by masli. i have seen where players are getting close to the limit so sign up someone they are sitting for thinking it is ok when it is not.
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Re: Account sitting abuse - Chariot of Fire, Pedronicus [war

Postby Bones2484 on Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:31 am

eddie2 wrote:lol this thread turned funny. But one thing i have noticed is that a lot of clans are using the excuse that sitting comes under tourney rules. where sitters are allowed to sign up for games. this part does need to be confirmed by masli. i have seen where players are getting close to the limit so sign up someone they are sitting for thinking it is ok when it is not.


What are you talking about? And what does Masli have to do with tournaments? Are you able to ever not go completely off-topic in a thread?
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Re: Account sitting abuse - Chariot of Fire, Pedronicus [war

Postby eddie2 on Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:37 am

clans are running clan wars under tourney sitting rules when they should not be. that was the part kort were getting wrong and josko got warned for it (signing moonchild up) but his cases he is brining are about sitters playing mid game for 1 turn not whole games.
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Re: Account sitting abuse - Chariot of Fire, Pedronicus [war

Postby lord voldemort on Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:40 am

eddie has a point even if he sucked at explaining it...
@ bones....clan games are tourny games as you know...so the confusion is...in the sitting rules you can join new games when sitting if they are tournament.
and masli is the head of clans now...so it falls upon him or admin to make this ruling.
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Re: Account sitting abuse - Chariot of Fire, Pedronicus [war

Postby ljex on Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:19 pm

Rodion wrote:That's an interesting defense, but it is mostly based on appeal to reputation. It doesn't work that way against undeniable evidence (check the Commander62890 case for reference).

For instance, I'll give you 2 clear cut cases (in my view). And that is only considering 2011, your clan got a huge freebie with this abuse prescription of not really considering things from 2010, but I digress.

Game 9157574 - the point here is that account sitting parts from the premise that a player will not be able to take the turn for himself. There are 12 posts that can be used as evidence that Dako HAD access before his 24-hour deadline would expire and therefore your sitting was not in compliance to the strict CC sitting guidelines ("only sit if in danger of missing the turn").

Game 8687933 - same as above, but change "12 posts after the sitting took place" for "11 posts before the sitting took place".

As a reminder, you were pretty quick in condemning KoRT back in the Josko case.
Bones' case on KoRT basically had logs of forum posts and other played games showing that the players that Josko had sat for were online in the 24-hour span of the turn.
Here, Josko's case on TOFU basically has logs of forum posts and other played games showing that the players that CoF had sat for were online in the 24-hour span of the turn.
A different ruling would defy both logic and law.


While it may seem black and white that these cases are the same i can point you to many cases where it seems to defy logic and law that different rulings were reached however as that is not on topic with this thread please pm me if you wish me to put it together
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Re: Account sitting abuse - Chariot of Fire, Pedronicus [war

Postby Lindax on Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:50 pm

lord voldemort wrote:eddie has a point even if he sucked at explaining it...
@ bones....clan games are tourny games as you know...so the confusion is...in the sitting rules you can join new games when sitting if they are tournament.
and masli is the head of clans now...so it falls upon him or admin to make this ruling.


Correction: Clan games are NOT tournament games. Maybe some of the same rules apply, but I don't think that's official or even published anywhere.

I may be wrong on the second part, in which case I would love to stand corrected (please include pertinent links).

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Re: Account sitting abuse - Chariot of Fire, Pedronicus [war

Postby ljex on Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:03 pm

Lindax wrote:
lord voldemort wrote:eddie has a point even if he sucked at explaining it...
@ bones....clan games are tourny games as you know...so the confusion is...in the sitting rules you can join new games when sitting if they are tournament.
and masli is the head of clans now...so it falls upon him or admin to make this ruling.


Correction: Clan games are NOT tournament games. Maybe some of the same rules apply, but I don't think that's official or even published anywhere.

I may be wrong on the second part, in which case I would love to stand corrected (please include pertinent links).

Lx


Actually clan games are tournament games as clans are using the tournament games to create their private and track-able games. You will notice as proof that when searching for the games of a clan war in game finder you do so through tournament finder. Thus by code they are tournament games

That is not to say that the rules are or should be the same for each
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Re: Account sitting abuse - Chariot of Fire, Pedronicus [war

Postby Lindax on Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:17 pm

ljex wrote:
Lindax wrote:
lord voldemort wrote:eddie has a point even if he sucked at explaining it...
@ bones....clan games are tourny games as you know...so the confusion is...in the sitting rules you can join new games when sitting if they are tournament.
and masli is the head of clans now...so it falls upon him or admin to make this ruling.


Correction: Clan games are NOT tournament games. Maybe some of the same rules apply, but I don't think that's official or even published anywhere.

I may be wrong on the second part, in which case I would love to stand corrected (please include pertinent links).

Lx


Actually clan games are tournament games as clans are using the tournament games to create their private and track-able games. You will notice as proof that when searching for the games of a clan war in game finder you do so through tournament finder. Thus by code they are tournament games

That is not to say that the rules are or should be the same for each


Just because for now they use the Tournament Database to create the games does not mean that they are tournament games. And since they use the Tournament Database, they will show up in the tournament finder.

For all intents and purposes they are clan war games though, not tournament games.

Once they get their own database the games will not be created under the "tournament banner" anymore.

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