Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri [warned]

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Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri [warned]

Postby Bones2484 on Tue May 24, 2011 5:27 pm

Accused: josko.ri and various members of KORT

The accused are suspected of: Account Sitting Abuse


Game number(s): Numerous, see comments.


Comments: Over the course of several months, josko.ri has been taking turns for numerous players that he is teamed up with when those players are not away from the site and perfectly capable of taking their own turns. These players have admitted to allowing josko to take turns for them because they have not been told what to do yet. Josko takes these turns while the other players are making moves in other games, making forum posts, and joining other games. Josko does not take turns in other games at the same time giving more credence to the argument that the players are not actually incapable of making their turns; these players choose to not play their turns, expecting Josko to do so for them. This has happened in numerous clan challenges and tournaments, spoiling the competitive nature and integrity of both.

The rules of the site spell out what is classified as Account Sitting Abuse:

Account sitting abuse

What is it

If the Account Sitter has a stake in these non-tournament/non-clan challenge games (as an opponent or teammate), and plays multiple games from start to finish using the Account for which they are Sitting as a communal account strategically play turns, knowing that Account Sitter will not be back to take any of these turns.

A user or group of users who loosely share their accounts among one another to improve their score and gaming by means of strategically allowing others to take their turns for them at specific times, or allowing well versed and ranked users to essentially play select games on their account for them to boost their score and rank.


The last paragraph above clearly spells out the main violation that Josko and various members of KORT are breaking over, and over, and over again.

Please note that all of the examples below are games in which players have chosen to not play their own turns and allowed Josko to do so for them instead. I have excluded games (dozens, if not hundreds) that it looks like legitimate account sitting is taking place (ie: when a player was on vacation/out of town).

These examples are only from the KORT challenges with G1 and THOTA, plus Lindax's TLO Tournament however other clans (Mainly TOFU) that have faced off against KORT have complained about Josko's account sitting abuse so games likely exist there as well in addition to other possible tournament violations.


June 17th, 2010
One turn was taken for #1_stunna at 2:53 with 1 hour left on the timer in Game 7097663. In this game, josko states that he will be covering 10 days worth of turns for #1_stunna:

2010-06-17 02:56:54 - #1_stunna: josko.ri for stunna next 10 days

However, #1_stunna can be seen entering 56 non-tournament games between 6/18 and 6/25. Game numbers: 7181224 to 7204402

December 4th, 2010
One turn was taken for Moonchild at 16:25 with 1 hour left on the timer in Game 8055675. However, Moonchild is fully active in a 1v1 game on December 4th and was able to take turns and make comments there even though Josko covered a turn for him elsewhere: Game 8062285

December 5th, 2010
One turn was taken for Moonchild at 6:53 with 1 hour left on the timer in Game 8055846. However, Moonchild can be found taking a few turns in a 1v1 game (and commenting multiple times in game chat) up to one hour before his turn would have expired on the turn Josko took for him, proving Moonchild was fully capable of covering his own turn: Game 8062285

January 21st, 2011
One turn was taken for Moonchild at 17:28 with 5 hours left on the timer in Game 8263174. However, turns were taken on January 21st in multiple 1v1 games within a small window of the time Josko took the above turn and well within the time frame for Moonchild to take the turn himself: Game 8350532, Game 8350533, Game 8350534.

January 27th, 2011
One turn was taken for Moonchild at 10:40 with 5 hours left on the timer in Game 8293313. However, multiple turns were taken on January 27th in three 1v1 games (including many turns within a few hours of Josko taking a turn and the turn expiring): Game 8382533, Game 8382531, Game 8386306.

January 28th, 2011
One turn was taken for Rodion at 17:12 with 1 hour left on the timer in Game 8360118. However in other games, Rodion takes a many turns for himself on 1/28 a few hours before (many within 1 hour), for some reason allowing Josko to cover for him only in the above game: Game 8333260, Game 8331968, Game 8334625, Game 8350201, Game 8360064, Game 8360133, Game 8363351, Game 8363810, Game 8365083, Game 8390001, Game 8390005

March 24th, 2011
One turn was taken for Rodion at 5:09 with 2 hours left on the timer in Game 8708832. Rodion's posts end at 20:21 on March 23rd and pick back up again at 9:42 the morning of the 24th. Rodion has chosen to leave a turn for Josko to analyze/play when he had plenty of time to make the turn himself before heading off the site.

April 7th, 2011
One turn was taken for Rodion at 6:09 with 2 hours left on the timer in Game 8804946. Rodion's posts end at 22:43 late on the 6th and begin again at 8:56 on the 7th. Rodion has again chosen to leave a turn for Josko to analyze/play when he had plenty of time to make the turn himself.

April 8th, 2011
One turn was taken for Moonchild at 15:59 with 4 hours left on the timer in Game 8804906. However, Moonchild again played mulitple 1v1 turns on April 8th, well within the timeframe to take the turn Josko took for him: Game 8836204, Game 8842899, Game 8842907, Game 8842906, Game 8842904, Game 8842903, Game 8842902, Game 8842907, Game 8842901.

April 11th, 2011
One turn was taken for Rodion at 15:05 with 5 hours left on the timer in Game 8804906. Rodion is active on the forums at 10:01 and 11:24 just a few hours before josko takes the turn for him.

April 18th, 2011
One turn was taken for agonzos at 16:20 with 1 hour left on the timer in Game 8804946. Game chat announces:

2011-04-18 16:22:20 - agonzos: going sleep and gonzo not here so want to be sure to save turn

April 19th, 2011
One turn was taken for Rodion at 14:55 with 5 minutes left on the timer in Game 8804906. Rodion is active in the forums playing a mafia game with multiple posts for an hour from 7:02 to 8:06 and returns to the forums at 17:06 after work. He chooses to not play this one game and allow josko to take the turn for him.

May 2nd, 2011
One turn was taken for Rodion at 16:03 with 1 hour left on the timer in Game 8880866. However, Rodion is active in a tournament thread at 13:40 and a mafia game at 13:42 (3 hours before his turn expires). He again chooses to not play this one game and allow josko to take the turn for him.

May 5th, 2011
Two turns are taken for Moonchild in Game 8928842 and Game 8957634. These turns are taken within 15 minutes of each other. The first turn is taken at 13:50 yet the turn is not set to expire for another 9 hours, the second turn is taken at 14:05 with just a minute left on the game timer.

However, Moonchild is not in need of a sitter on this day. In Game 9008785 Moonchild takes a turn for himself at 12:50, an hour before josko takes his turns. In Game 8977080, Game 8977081, Game 8977082, Game 8977083, Game 8977085, Game 8977086, Game 8977087, Game 8977088, Game 8977089 Moonchild takes his own turns around 11:16 just under 3 hours before josko takes his turns. Finally, Moonchild takes 5 turns over the course of 22 hours all on May 5th in each of the following games, proving he was not away and was fully capable of taking his own turns on that day: Game 9008785, Game 9008786, Game 9008787.


May 7th, 2011
One turn was taken for Rodion at 2:29 with 6 hours left on the timer in Game 8957634. It is accepted that Rodion is sleeping at this time as his last forum post is on 5/6 at 23:29 and next post is on 5/7 at 9:54 and no games (other than the one in which josko takes a turn) are played during this timeframe. However, it is obvious that Rodion is not away for an extended period of time and was capable of taking his own turn.


May 10th, 2011
One turn was taken for Rodion at 7:49 with 30 minutes left on the timer in Game 8957634. Again, it is accepted that Rodion was sleeping as he freely admits that he is "Going to sleep now" in his last forum post on 5/9 at 22:36. Why does he not take the turn before going to bed? It is because josko has not yet told him what he should do on his turn, so Rodion goes to bed with full knowledge that josko will take the turn for him. This is admitted in the game chat:

2011-05-10 12:08:19 - josko.ri: sorry for sitting needed, it seems like Rodion wasnt here on time to take his turn so i had to jump.
2011-05-10 13:34:03 - Rodion: I had 2 plans, so I waited to talk to Josko, but then I had to sleep and he ended up playing for me, sorry

Also on May 10th, one turn was taken for thebest712 at 15:49 with 13 minutes left on the timer in Game 8957647. However, thebest712 takes his own turns in multiple games within 4-5 hours of josko playing for him: Game 8957618, Game 8993698, Game 9027042, Game 9027046, Game 9027647. thebest712 chose to not take his turn and allow josko to do so for him, even though he was actively taking turns a few hours prior in other games.

May 12th, 2011
One turn was taken for Moonchild in Game 9019789 at 19:00 with 3 hours remaining on the turn. However, several 1v1 games were played by Moonchild with multiple turns taken while it was his turn in the game Josko took the turn for him. References: Game 9034997, Game 9034998, Game 9048490, Game 9048619, Game 9048621, Game 9048623, Game 9052043. There was plenty of time for Moonchild to take the turn himself as is evidenced by him playing all day on the 12th for himself, but again chose for Josko to do so for him.

May 22nd, 2011
Josko.ri admits to taking turns for players who have intentionally stalled their turns for him to play. Game 9019805:

2011-05-21 17:21:32 - josko.ri: sometimes people is waiting to make agreement what to play, so it cause stalling some turns, and sometimes real life situations dont allow to come back near computer on time. I sit when I see that person is not online and time is low
Last edited by Bones2484 on Thu May 26, 2011 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri

Postby Bones2484 on Tue May 24, 2011 5:27 pm

I just want to reiterate: These examples are only from the G1 and THOTA challenges with KORT and Lindax's TLO Tournament, which represent a very small fraction of games played. I do not have the time/energy to search through all the games that there may be abuse happening, but I would not be surprised to find out this is happening in a much broader sense in other challenges and tournaments.
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Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri

Postby rdsrds2120 on Tue May 24, 2011 5:46 pm

Interesting case, good luck with it.

-rd
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Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri

Postby ljex on Tue May 24, 2011 6:16 pm

clearly well researched, time to see what the admin thinks. To me the bigger issue here is the fact that these are clan games than that it should be against site rules as most of them are with low time. I think the clan directors should come up with some way to stop this as otherwise this may create difficult cases in the future.
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Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri

Postby Bones2484 on Tue May 24, 2011 6:20 pm

ljex wrote:clearly well researched, time to see what the admin thinks. To me the bigger issue here is the fact that these are clan games than that it should be against site rules as most of them are with low time. I think the clan directors should come up with some way to stop this as otherwise this may create difficult cases in the future.


One of my biggest concerns (with the lack of a good account sitting function built into the site) is that posting when you play for someone will just stop altogether, now.
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Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri

Postby drunkmonkey on Tue May 24, 2011 8:43 pm

Bones2484 wrote:May 22nd, 2011
Josko.ri admits to taking turns for players who have intentionally stalled their turns for him to play. Game 9019805:

2011-05-21 17:21:32 - josko.ri: sometimes people is waiting to make agreement what to play, so it cause stalling some turns, and sometimes real life situations dont allow to come back near computer on time. I sit when I see that person is not online and time is low


Some clans discuss their moves instead of just taking them individually as soon as the turns come up. It's apparent from this chat that a move was being discussed, and players were waiting on feedback from everyone before starting the turn. If you deem that illegal, that's one thing, but it's far from intentionally stalling so josko can play the turn. :roll:
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Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri

Postby mc05025 on Tue May 24, 2011 9:14 pm

Sometimes people decide for a lot of reasons not to play and take their turn later. In some of these cases you might not be careful enough and lose your turn.
In no team games you lose your turn. In team games might your teammate see that and take your turn for you. Is that illegal or not?

P.S. In many cases it is impossible for everyone to know who is playing especially if the teammates are friends
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Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri

Postby basic_man2010_20 on Tue May 24, 2011 9:16 pm

one quick question

i know that in the accoutn sitting section is says something as following not an exact quote as i cant find it but i think last i knew it said ONLY take turn WHEN in JEOPARDY of missing a turn. now most of them was 5 mins to an hour but i saw some that was 5 hours away.... now i dont hitnk that 5 hours is in JEOPARDY of missing a turn now is it?
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Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri

Postby jpcloet on Tue May 24, 2011 9:22 pm

ljex wrote:clearly well researched, time to see what the admin thinks. To me the bigger issue here is the fact that these are clan games than that it should be against site rules as most of them are with low time. I think the clan directors should come up with some way to stop this as otherwise this may create difficult cases in the future.


Agreed. At this moment my team does not have the tools to track or enforce, and it is not likely to come to us. It has to be all in C&A. I will follow this thread accordingly.
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Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri

Postby Bones2484 on Tue May 24, 2011 9:29 pm

basic_man2010_20 wrote:one quick question

i know that in the accoutn sitting section is says something as following not an exact quote as i cant find it but i think last i knew it said ONLY take turn WHEN in JEOPARDY of missing a turn. now most of them was 5 mins to an hour but i saw some that was 5 hours away.... now i dont hitnk that 5 hours is in JEOPARDY of missing a turn now is it?


While I can somewhat understand the theory behind the "only take a turn when in jeopardy of missing", there's the small problem of the definition of Account Sitting Abuse that are in my OP, which is what I feel is the main rule being broken here. I will quote it again just for reference:

A user or group of users who loosely share their accounts among one another to improve their score and gaming by means of strategically allowing others to take their turns for them at specific times, or allowing well versed and ranked users to essentially play select games on their account for them to boost their score and rank.


Like I also mentioned, there are many (dozens/hundreds) of games where Josko followed the "only take a turn when in jeopardy of missing" that I did not include in my OP as I don't believe those are a violation. Only the games where I felt that players were choosing to not play and allowing Josko to play for them were included.
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Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri

Postby Chariot of Fire on Tue May 24, 2011 10:23 pm

drunkmonkey wrote:
Bones2484 wrote:May 22nd, 2011
Josko.ri admits to taking turns for players who have intentionally stalled their turns for him to play. Game 9019805:

2011-05-21 17:21:32 - josko.ri: sometimes people is waiting to make agreement what to play, so it cause stalling some turns, and sometimes real life situations dont allow to come back near computer on time. I sit when I see that person is not online and time is low


Some clans discuss their moves instead of just taking them individually as soon as the turns come up. It's apparent from this chat that a move was being discussed, and players were waiting on feedback from everyone before starting the turn. If you deem that illegal, that's one thing, but it's far from intentionally stalling so josko can play the turn. :roll:


Of course clanmates discuss moves and offer advice in gamechat - it's to be expected. There is however a huge difference between what is normal practice and what occurs within games with KORT. How can it possibly be deemed acceptable to play turns in other games and leave those where advice from the clan's star player hasn't been received - effectively leaving him to step in and play the turn. If anyone's in any doubt as to how KORT have managed to string such a successful run of results together then one only has to consider the fact every move is either orchestrated or played by a general.

but it's far from intentionally stalling so josko can play the turn


On the contrary - this is most definitely intentional stalling, or why else would the player not take his turn?

More on this later.
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Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri

Postby MoB Deadly on Tue May 24, 2011 10:55 pm

Its a 24 hour time limit for a reason. That includes 24 hours to strategize your next move. I can see it happening in a couple instances, but there are way too many here. Their team needs to be more organized to get turns in within the time limit with the correct player taking their turn. Otherwise the player needs to act without the guidance of the general
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Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri

Postby Chariot of Fire on Tue May 24, 2011 10:57 pm

As members of TOFU we had a very bad experience in our challenge with KORT, due in the most part to the habitual sitting by josko of others' accounts. I regret in hindsight having not taken action when instances such as Game 7625904 came to light (we chose instead to just make our concerns known in gamechat rather than take it to any authority). Here was a player, Moonchild, being entered into games when he was away on holiday! Needless to say josko conveniently sat those turns for him. As the alarming regularity of sitting continued we then made our concerns known to KORT who, instead of keeping it in check, opted to write a script instead which posted "josko for <player's name>" every time a turn was taken. Ha ha, funny joke. Of course it was at that point we filed a complaint and the script they had written came to light.

I'm not going to list the game numbers - there are 60 of them - but you could pick virtually any one of the TOFU-KORT games and find examples of josko sitting. To his credit he does at least announce it in gamechat, though that will probably now cease as Bones pointed out:

One of my biggest concerns (with the lack of a good account sitting function built into the site) is that posting when you play for someone will just stop altogether, now.


Here are a few choice posts made on josko's wall from his clanmates:

19/4 (18/4 USA time)
Thanks for looking out, you are welcome to sit if time is dwindling.

19/4 (18/4 USA time)
Did you take my turn at the same time as me? I attacked but someone else forted.

(the reply from josko was "Yes. Sorry I didn't know you come. I just go sleep")

And this on agonzos' wall from josko (19/4)

"Hi gonzo, are you around? I am going sleep so prefer sit for you if you don't reply"


So what's the deal here? If I'm going to bed can I go and sit all my clanmates' turns before I retire? Can I play their moves even when they themselves are in mid-turn?

There's never smoke without fire and I think Bones has made a compelling case supported by a weight of evidence. I also know that both he and I are not alone in harbouring concern about what has been going on and I hope some of those others will also lend weight to this report.

The facility to sit for another is a privilege - it's not a right and it is not there to be abused to gain an unfair advantage which has clearly been the case in KORT clan games for the past nine months at least.
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Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri

Postby gameplayer on Tue May 24, 2011 11:52 pm

drunkmonkey wrote:
Bones2484 wrote:May 22nd, 2011
Josko.ri admits to taking turns for players who have intentionally stalled their turns for him to play. Game 9019805:

2011-05-21 17:21:32 - josko.ri: sometimes people is waiting to make agreement what to play, so it cause stalling some turns, and sometimes real life situations dont allow to come back near computer on time. I sit when I see that person is not online and time is low


Some clans discuss their moves instead of just taking them individually as soon as the turns come up. It's apparent from this chat that a move was being discussed, and players were waiting on feedback from everyone before starting the turn. If you deem that illegal, that's one thing, but it's far from intentionally stalling so josko can play the turn. :roll:

The fact of the matter is he was perfectly capable of taking his turns and didn't. I understand wanting to talk with your teammates, but in no situation should that excuse you from having to play the turn yourself. If you're in front of the computer at any point in time during the 24 hour period, you have an obligation to take the turn yourself at some point during those 24 hours.
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Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri

Postby reptile on Wed May 25, 2011 12:12 am

I will have to look back and check if needed, but i do remember seeing at least a couple times that he was "account sitting" for some players in our challenge against them a few months ago. And i really dont play in all that many games compared to most of LoW's members.

However as the most dedicated members of CC belong to clans, Clans have kept me and many more Conquer Clubers around long past our time. Meaning that I am very interested in seeing what the Authorities of Conquer Club will do about this.

I would expect that this is one of the top priorities to the staff of conquerclub to look into this and come up with a fair judgement.

If this is honestly the case it should NOT be taken lightly.

What follows will say a lot about what will be allowed and the future of clans on Conquer Club.

I do have a question for KoRT if what is said is true. What is the point? Why play? Why join a team/clan? WoW
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