[Abandoned] - Veneto

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[Abandoned] - Veneto

Postby Ruben Cassar on Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:40 am

Overview

Italy has 20 regions. Veneto is located in the North Eastern area of Italy and the regional capital (capoluogho) is Venice (Venezia). This could be the first in a list of 20 maps comprising the 20 Italian regions, but I am a lazy guy with limited time available so do not quote me on that!

Gameplay

Mainly classic style play. The capoluoghi provinciali (provincial capitals) have a +1 auto deploy. These are Belluno, Treviso, Vicenza, Padova, Verona and Rovigo. The capoluogho (regional capital), Venezia has a +2 auto deploy. All these territories start as neutrals. The capoluoghi provinciali with 5 neutrals while Venezia starts with +7 neutrals.

There are also the provincial bonuses for each provincia ( Venezia +4, Belluno +3, Treviso +3, Vicenza +4, Padova +4, Verona +4, and Rovigo +2. The adjacent regioni can also be conquered. There are 4 of these (Lombardia, Emilia-Romagna, Friuli-Venezia Giulia and Trentino-Alto Adige) and if all of them are held they yield a +1 bonus. If all 4 plus Mare Adriatico are held they yield a +2 bonus. These territories start with 2 neutrals each.

Territories: 61

Note: Venezia does not connect with any land but can only be accessed from Mare Adriatico.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Version 1.9 - 06 April 2009

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Updates:

1. Added border to Veneto mini map in bonus section.
2. Removed orange borders from Italy mini map.

Version 1.8 - 30 March 2009 - http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll127/Ruben_Cassar/Veneto18.jpg
Last edited by Ruben Cassar on Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Regioni d'Italia - Il Veneto

Postby thenobodies80 on Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:04 pm

Eh eh eh ! Lo sopettavo amico mio! :D

Wonderful!

Italy is my homeland so I can rule! :lol:

Good idea, but i don't know if you can develope all the maps.
Community really want to play all these italian maps?
Not sure....
obviously i'm happy for your project and i glad to offer myself if you need help! ;)

Some quick suggestions for you:

1. I like the adriatic sea, but i don't think you have to add the adjacent "regioni", them don't have a really sense in your map. :?
2. I think you can write "provinces", there's no a big diference with the italian word "Provincia" and the biggest part of CC speak english, not italian.
3. If you remove the adjacent "regioni" you can move the small italy map in the right part of the map, and the small legend for bonuses in the bottom left part. In this way you have the necessary space for the main title, now too small.
4. English people can understand "altri bonus" ?
5. Flag is little static more wind could be cool
6. Why not use this flag: Image, so you can use a different flag for each map.

About bonuses i need more time, but i sure you i will come back soon...

Good Idea =D>

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Re: Regioni d'Italia - Il Veneto

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:17 pm

I think this map will suffer from both the "Is this really interesting enough to play on?" (think of the critiques to the random USA State maps), and may also suffer from "It you looks like your other maps a little too much, give us something new."


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Re: Regioni d'Italia - Il Veneto

Postby RjBeals on Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:39 pm

nice first draft Mr.Cassar. Here's what I came up with at a first look.

  • I think you need some impassable borders between the bonus regions. It's no fun having to defend every territory.
  • I like the pastel colors, but I think they need just a little more saturation.
  • What about giving the gray "all other regions" some sort of texture, besides flat gray?
  • This does really look like some of your other maps. You might need to switch it up a bit. Like that Roma map you started was really unique.
  • What about making a call-out box around venezia, and then having a larger submap of that area? just a thought.
  • I don't think you need the faint orange borders in the subset Italy map in the legned. It's also just to white.
  • I would also draw a border around the bonus regions in the mini-map. It will look much better.
  • I also don't like the dotted borders around the legends.
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Re: Regioni d'Italia - Il Veneto

Postby Ruben Cassar on Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:52 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:I think this map will suffer from both the "Is this really interesting enough to play on?" (think of the critiques to the random USA State maps), and may also suffer from "It you looks like your other maps a little too much, give us something new."


--Andy


I am used to these kind of critiques nowadays. But if I were to pay heed to them I would stop making new maps. I am going to be honest and blunt, after all the time I spent making this draft I was hoping for words of encouragement from your part Andy, and not this comment...

There is an ever widening gap between CC players and the mapmakers / people who come into the foundry and comment. The latter are a very small fraction of the CC community. I pride myself to be a bit of a missing link between the two communities as I play a lot of games and also make maps. Most people do not care about new innovative features in maps. There are a lot who just want a bigger selection of maps using classic style game play. Personally I am one of them...I seldom play many of the new maps which I feel try too hard to be different at times. That does not mean I do not appreciate the new concepts or the map makers who produce them. I appreciate every map created as I consider it a small work of art by the various map makers.

This map is not about creating new concepts, it's just about enjoying a map. I am enjoying creating it and I hope people will enjoy playing it. It's my style...so obviously it will be similar to previous maps I created in some ways. However I never made a map with so many territories before or used auto deploy. Even if it is not very popular I know there are people who will play it and enjoy it, and that I will have contributed something to this site.
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Re: Regioni d'Italia - Il Veneto

Postby Ruben Cassar on Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:00 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:Eh eh eh ! Lo sopettavo amico mio! :D

Wonderful!

Italy is my homeland so I can rule! :lol:

Good idea, but i don't know if you can develope all the maps.
Community really want to play all these italian maps?
Not sure....
obviously i'm happy for your project and i glad to offer myself if you need help! ;)

Some quick suggestions for you:

1. I like the adriatic sea, but i don't think you have to add the adjacent "regioni", them don't have a really sense in your map. :?
2. I think you can write "provinces", there's no a big diference with the italian word "Provincia" and the biggest part of CC speak english, not italian.
3. If you remove the adjacent "regioni" you can move the small italy map in the right part of the map, and the small legend for bonuses in the bottom left part. In this way you have the necessary space for the main title, now too small.
4. English people can understand "altri bonus" ?
5. Flag is little static more wind could be cool
6. Why not use this flag: Image, so you can use a different flag for each map.

About bonuses i need more time, but i sure you i will come back soon...

Good Idea =D>

THNBDS


Thanks for your comments Nobodies.

As I said in the earlier post I believe the community plays any map as long as it is enjoable.

1. I decided to go for them to create a different dimension to the map and create more territories.
2. Ah my friend. It's true I love Italian more than people who live in Italy. ;)
3. I will consider this but I am more concerned about gameplay. I did not put much thought in the regional bonuses for example.
4. See 2 but I guess it's not that important since the description is in English. I did that on San Marino too. I love using Italian where I can.
5&6. I saw that flag. It's the Veneto flag. I tried to use it. I also have a "stemma", a badge of Veneto. The flag was so small when I tried to fit it in that the details like the lion were lost and not recognisable...that's why I opted not to use it. If I manage to put it in somehow I will.

Thanks...I will be awaiting more feedback on the bonuses from your part.
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Re: Regioni d'Italia - Il Veneto

Postby Ruben Cassar on Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:08 pm

RjBeals wrote:nice first draft Mr.Cassar. Here's what I came up with at a first look.

  • I think you need some impassable borders between the bonus regions. It's no fun having to defend every territory.
  • I like the pastel colors, but I think they need just a little more saturation.
  • What about giving the gray "all other regions" some sort of texture, besides flat gray?
  • This does really look like some of your other maps. You might need to switch it up a bit. Like that Roma map you started was really unique.
  • What about making a call-out box around venezia, and then having a larger submap of that area? just a thought.
  • I don't think you need the faint orange borders in the subset Italy map in the legned. It's also just to white.
  • I would also draw a border around the bonus regions in the mini-map. It will look much better.
  • I also don't like the dotted borders around the legends.



Thanks RJ.

  • That's true. I might have to implement something of that kind at a later stage. I'll think a bit about it...
  • Really? I was afraid they were too saturated. The problem is that colours appear differently on monitors according to the settings of the specific monitor.
  • I did not do that because I did not want to put emphasis on the adjacent regions and leave the focus on Veneto.
  • Yes...I need to finish that Roman map one of these days...
  • I am not a fan of this option...and I am already struggling with free space.
  • Hmm...I did not understand this one. The coloured region in the Italy map is Veneto...is that orange? I thought it was brown...but you know me...I'm colour blind. :)
  • Yes...I think you're right...will try that.
  • I guess that's a matter of personal taste but point noted.

Thanks for the feedback RJ. I appreciate the time dedicated for these comments. :)
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Re: Regioni d'Italia - Il Veneto

Postby thenobodies80 on Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:19 pm

RjBeals wrote:nice first draft Mr.Cassar. Here's what I came up with at a first look.

  • I don't think you need the faint orange borders in the subset Italy map in the legned. It's also just to white.



i think Rj said you to remove the orange borders in the small map of italy. You did a green veneto and others region white, but you left the borders.
Rj ask you to remove them and leave only the green zone. ;)
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Re: Regioni d'Italia - Il Veneto

Postby Ruben Cassar on Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:27 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:i think Rj said you to remove the orange borders in the small map of italy. You did a green veneto and others region white, but you left the borders.
Rj ask you to remove them and leave only the green zone. ;)


Yes...I will fix that. That's a pic which I added, did not do it myself and had not even seen the orange borders. Hehe.
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Re: Regioni d'Italia - Il Veneto

Postby thenobodies80 on Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:32 pm

Ok, i take time to look your bonuses and gameplay.

With a first look the real role of the other regioni isn't so clear, but now i understand how powerfull they are! :shock:

I try to explain you best i can what i think:

    • Belluno Prov.: 8 regions and 6 borders
      Venezia Prov.: 11 regions and 10 borders
      Treviso Prov.: 7 regions and 12 borders
      Vicenza Prov.: 10 regions and 10 borders
      Verona Prov.: 9 regions and 8 borders
      Rovigo Prov.: 5 regions and 8 borders
      Padova Prov.: 7 regions and 16 borders
    You are doing a "hard holding bonuses" map! anyways, belluno and rovigo are similar and seems to be the easiest to take in your map. The hardest is Venezia (i think impossible to hold), if you chose to follow this way i suggest you to set bigger bonuses.
  • Other regioni reduces the borders but really them give a bigger percentage that someone will attack you with few moves (with two good rolls i can attack garda from auronzo di cadore).
    If you remove the other regioni, the map could be more easy to play. Removing adriatic sea, you can add some water routes in the adriatic sea (all from venezia)...and if you find a way to do, you can link venezia with mestre, the real only point of access to the city by dryland. Freedom bridge is very important (it's long 3,8 km ) in Veneto. On the other hand "other regioni" and adriatic sae add to your map a unique features that other maps missed. But gameplay is affected by your choice.
  • A good choice could be remove the bonuses and develope "feudal war" style bonuses. You take x armies for y regions in the same provincia you hold.
  • Agree with the autodeploy bonuses, a friendly support in this tricky map

Hope helpfull ;)

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Re: Regioni d'Italia - Il Veneto

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:51 pm

Ruben, you of all people, should know I rarely like first drafts of anything. ;) Maps have to win me over. I know you have the talent to do a great map---I'd just like to see you use that talent and not fall into any Cookie Cutter Cartography.


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Re: Regioni d'Italia - Il Veneto

Postby Ruben Cassar on Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:12 pm

Veneto 1.9

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Updates:

1. Added border to Veneto mini map in bonus section.
2. Removed orange borders from Italy mini map.
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Re: Regioni d'Italia - Il Veneto - Updated 06.04.09

Postby Ruben Cassar on Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:20 pm

As a side note I have been toying with the idea of having two versions of this map.

One would be a classic style version of the map and another one a conquest version of the map. Graphically they would be similar but gameplay would be diffirent.

I do not know if the foundry would allow me to have two versions of the same map. If yes, one could be defined as Veneto - Stile Classico and the other as Veneto - Stile Conquista.
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Re: Regioni d'Italia - Il Veneto - Updated 06.04.09

Postby thenobodies80 on Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:47 pm

Ruben Cassar wrote:As a side note I have been toying with the idea of having two versions of this map.

One would be a classic style version of the map and another one a conquest version of the map. Graphically they would be similar but gameplay would be diffirent.

I do not know if the foundry would allow me to have two versions of the same map. If yes, one could be defined as Veneto - Stile Classico and the other as Veneto - Stile Conquista.


i don't understand if you want to develop to map of veneto and leave members free to choose the one they like most or if you're going to develope two separate version of the same map for the live play. :?
you know i'm italian, but i don't think you will find the support for both maps.
I suppose you're developing for a series of 20 maps, in this case could be difficult to find the space for a double version of the same map.

Finally a small suggestion, for me is simple to understand what "trentino alto adige" is. But i suggest you to increase the size of the grey border to give to this regione a similar layout to the others on the map (Friuli-Venezia-giulia, Lombardia, Emilia Romagna).
You can reduce a bit the small italia square moving up the "Veneto" word ( i think you have 10 pixel of empty space), so you can add more grey zone and move the army circle. ;)
Could be easier to understand for foreign people, something similar to my example (not so diiferent form your original image)

show: example


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Re: Regioni d'Italia - Il Veneto - Updated 06.04.09

Postby Ruben Cassar on Mon Apr 06, 2009 5:29 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:
i don't understand if you want to develop to map of veneto and leave members free to choose the one they like most or if you're going to develope two separate version of the same map for the live play. :?
you know i'm italian, but i don't think you will find the support for both maps.
I suppose you're developing for a series of 20 maps, in this case could be difficult to find the space for a double version of the same map.

Finally a small suggestion, for me is simple to understand what "trentino alto adige" is. But i suggest you to increase the size of the grey border to give to this regione a similar layout to the others on the map (Friuli-Venezia-giulia, Lombardia, Emilia Romagna).
You can reduce a bit the small italia square moving up the "Veneto" word ( i think you have 10 pixel of empty space), so you can add more grey zone and move the army circle. ;)
Could be easier to understand for foreign people, something similar to my example (not so diiferent form your original image)

TNBDS


Forget the 20 maps for now. I was kidding up there. I don't think I'll ever have the energy to make a map for every region. I'll be lucky to get this one quenched at this pace. :)

What I meant was making 2 versions of the map. I'd like to have one for classic style play, with regional bonuses and auto deploy and another one with conquest style gameplay, something similar to qwert's Peloponnesian War map, where you have to hold some territories for a turn to win. I am still thinking about the options.

At this stage I am not developing this concept further until I get some feedback from the mods and see this move a bit.
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Re: Regioni d'Italia - Il Veneto - Updated 06.04.09

Postby MrBenn on Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:58 am

Ruben Cassar wrote: I do not know if the foundry would allow me to have two versions of the same map. If yes, one could be defined as Veneto - Stile Classico and the other as Veneto - Stile Conquista.

I know that this has been suggested in the past, and I seem to recall lack saying "no".
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Re: Regioni d'Italia - Il Veneto - Updated 06.04.09

Postby Ruben Cassar on Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:00 pm

MrBenn wrote:
Ruben Cassar wrote: I do not know if the foundry would allow me to have two versions of the same map. If yes, one could be defined as Veneto - Stile Classico and the other as Veneto - Stile Conquista.

I know that this has been suggested in the past, and I seem to recall lack saying "no".


I don't know...I never suggested it before. So I'm taking that reply as a definite no?

Any other feedback about all the rest of the map then? Is this ready for an advanced draft at least?

No one comments in here apart from nobodies anyway...
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Re: Regioni d'Italia - Il Veneto - Updated 06.04.09

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue Apr 07, 2009 3:01 pm

This is a pretty cool map, here's some thoughts:

I don't like the region's being playable. I think there's enough playable map in the center. It'll give you a little more dead space, which is a pain. It's just I think that extra regions overcomplicate the map. Just an opinion.

Could Ca' Bianca and Chioggia be merged?

I know its not much to offer, but i really do like the map and hope you see it through.
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Re: Regioni d'Italia - Il Veneto - Updated 06.04.09

Postby RjBeals on Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:09 am

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Ruben, the update wasn't that impressive. ;)
My comments below still hold true:

  • I think you need some impassable borders between the bonus regions. It's no fun having to defend every territory.

That's true. I might have to implement something of that kind at a later stage. I'll think a bit about it...



  • I like the pastel colors, but I think they need just a little more saturation.

Really? I was afraid they were too saturated. The problem is that colours appear differently on monitors according to the settings of the specific monitor.

It's your call. They are definately not too saturated though. I'm all for pastel colors, but these just seem washed out.


* I would like to see what you come up with for impassialbe borders.
* The Title could be snazzed up a bit.
* The Country of Italy inside the call out box is still too white.
* There's no bonus region names - like whats the orange region called?

* The "All Other Region +1" - does it mean that if I hold all the gray circle areas, I get a bonus of +1? That will never happen because every outer Veneto region can attack the gray regions. Or does it mean a +1 auto-deploy on each of those? In that case, do they start neutral?


* Some of your colors look messy around your borders:
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-------------------------------------------------------

Ruben - the foundry is not what it used to be. Over in AADOMM there's talk of foundry revamping. There's a crop of new members who give good feedback, but the group we use to have has disappeared. Remember DiM's posts? Or Coleman always had great feedback. Even Andy would follow threads more closely and did have more than 1 or 2 sentences to add. Sorry you're feeling the way you are. Keep tweaking the map, and bumping it up and you will get noticed.
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Re: Regioni d'Italia - Il Veneto - Updated 06.04.09

Postby Ruben Cassar on Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:33 am

RjBeals wrote:Ruben, the update wasn't that impressive. ;)
My comments below still hold true:


Hi RJ! It was not meant to be impressive in fact. I just made a small update.

I started with something more than an idea as a first draft in my personal opinion but the map is still stuck as an idea with basically no feedback from admin. Apparently to progress you have to make a number of updates before the map is taken into consideration, so I'll conform to the foundry process and make small updates.


RjBeals wrote:
  • I think you need some impassable borders between the bonus regions. It's no fun having to defend every territory.

Ruben Cassar wrote:That's true. I might have to implement something of that kind at a later stage. I'll think a bit about it...


Yes. I agree and I will think of something at a later stage when the gameplay starts to be discussed.


  • I like the pastel colors, but I think they need just a little more saturation.

Really? I was afraid they were too saturated. The problem is that colours appear differently on monitors according to the settings of the specific monitor.

It's your call. They are definately not too saturated though. I'm all for pastel colors, but these just seem washed out.



Hmm. What do you mean with washed out? Should I increase the opacity?

* I would like to see what you come up with for impassialbe borders.
* The Title could be snazzed up a bit.
* The Country of Italy inside the call out box is still too white.
* There's no bonus region names - like whats the orange region called?


The orange region is called Provincia di Padova. Padova is the capoluogho (provincial capital). Each province (provincia) gets the name of the capoluogho...similar to San Marino.

What do you mean Italy is still too white? I removed the orange like you said. What should it be if not white?

* The "All Other Region +1" - does it mean that if I hold all the gray circle areas, I get a bonus of +1? That will never happen because every outer Veneto region can attack the gray regions. Or does it mean a +1 auto-deploy on each of those? In that case, do they start neutral?


No you must hold them all to get +1. Much easier to hold than a region at this stage.

* Some of your colors look messy around your borders:


No I painted them all by hand RJ style. That's just an effect I used to create a kind of beach effect.

-------------------------------------------------------
Ruben - the foundry is not what it used to be. Over in AADOMM there's talk of foundry revamping. There's a crop of new members who give good feedback, but the group we use to have has disappeared. Remember DiM's posts? Or Coleman always had great feedback. Even Andy would follow threads more closely and did have more than 1 or 2 sentences to add. Sorry you're feeling the way you are. Keep tweaking the map, and bumping it up and you will get noticed.


It's evident that it has changed. It's like a morgue.

I just think new map makers will get easily discouraged when they see no feedback but I don't have a solution. The foundry seems a bit too fragmented now in my personal opinion.
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Re: Regioni d'Italia - Il Veneto - Updated 06.04.09

Postby Ruben Cassar on Sat Apr 11, 2009 7:54 am

Since I got no further feedback does it mean this is ready to be a sticky? :)
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Re: Regioni d'Italia - Il Veneto - Updated 06.04.09

Postby AndyDufresne on Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:28 pm

Ruben Cassar wrote:Since I got no further feedback does it mean this is ready to be a sticky? :)


Hate to be the harbinger, but perhaps there is a lack of feedback because this map hasn't caught the interest of many people?


--Andy
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Re: Regioni d'Italia - Il Veneto - Updated 06.04.09

Postby gho on Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:46 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:
Ruben Cassar wrote:Since I got no further feedback does it mean this is ready to be a sticky? :)


Hate to be the harbinger, but perhaps there is a lack of feedback because this map hasn't caught the interest of many people?


--Andy

I have to agree with this. Maybe you should do a map on Venice city with the canals and cathedrals and everything.

I'd really like to see you work on your Punic War map, I really liiked that map.
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Re: Regioni d'Italia - Il Veneto - Updated 06.04.09

Postby Ruben Cassar on Sun Apr 12, 2009 2:45 am

AndyDufresne wrote:
Ruben Cassar wrote:Since I got no further feedback does it mean this is ready to be a sticky? :)


Hate to be the harbinger, but perhaps there is a lack of feedback because this map hasn't caught the interest of many people?


--Andy


Or perhaps the foundry system is not working and no one ever comments in the drafts section?

It's not only this map that has no feedback in here and you know that Andy. This map has been ignored for 2 weeks now.

Frankly I am still waiting for some feedback from you as well but all I get are these one sentence comments which do not help but have the only effect of trying to discourage me to work on this map. I never understood it, instead of encouraging the development of a map some people try to stop me from ever finishing it and this has happened in all the maps I worked on in the past. Don't you see that something is seriously wrong in this logic? I am sure that if this map ever gets quenched people will play it but those who play are not interested in coming in here to comment.

Also I am sick and frustrated of all this negativity instead of getting some encouragement for trying to make a new map or even some decent feedback from the people I expect to give feedback...
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Re: Regioni d'Italia - Il Veneto - Updated 06.04.09

Postby Ruben Cassar on Sun Apr 12, 2009 2:49 am

gho wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:
Ruben Cassar wrote:Since I got no further feedback does it mean this is ready to be a sticky? :)


Hate to be the harbinger, but perhaps there is a lack of feedback because this map hasn't caught the interest of many people?


--Andy

I have to agree with this. Maybe you should do a map on Venice city with the canals and cathedrals and everything.

I'd really like to see you work on your Punic War map, I really liiked that map.


Well I'm not quitting on this one even if takes 3 years to quench which at this rate will probably happen...but thanks for the feedback even though it does not help the development of this map...
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