[Abandoned] - JUDEA

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[Abandoned] - JUDEA

Postby Len44 on Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:15 pm

This map is susposed to be Israel in the biblical times. The regions (continents/bonuses) are the 12 tribes of Israel split up. However, some of the tribes were too small too make them into it's own region so I grouped it with another tribe to make a single region.

It's still a work-in-progress (lol you can notice I haven't named one of the brown region's territories yet and forgot a troop indicator thing on a yellow region territory), so I would like lots of feedback.

first draft
second draft
third draft

FOURTH DRAFT:
Click image to enlarge.
image


Judah-Benjamin - Green +5
Simeon - Yellow +3
Reuben - Red +2
West Manasseh - Orange +3
East Manasseh - Olive green +4
Gad - Blue +3
Dan-Ephraim - Purple +2
Naphtali-Asher - Cyan + 2


1. The number of territories currently on the map: 38
2. The number of continents: 8
3. Descriptions of any unique features or areas: Oasises, Towns, Cities, and Spice Caravan.

If anyone wants to help, that would rock. And if you plan on playing this map when it's published but see something you'd like different, let me know and I'll change it.
Last edited by Len44 on Tue May 05, 2009 4:19 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Ancient Israel

Postby tlane on Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:18 pm

Wow Great job.
This looks great for a first draft.
For one quick comment, i would say work on where you are going to have bridges cause you need some.
Also, you should check the size requirements, i think this is to big

great job
tlane =D>
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Re: Ancient Israel

Postby sailorseal on Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:19 pm

Look amazing, just scale it down into the size limits and you will have a great map
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Re: Ancient Israel

Postby thenobodies80 on Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:26 pm

Great! =D>

Very Nice

Some quick suggestions:
*Zones names on the left would be coloured, where is Simeonon on the map?
*The brown zone is very similar to background.
*Raphia and Sharuhen are isolated :?
*Bethsaida and Golan are isolated :?
*Draw the attack routes could be more clear. I can't understand how the right part of the map can attack the left part...

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=241&t=78808

Draft images should not be larger than 630x600px (small image) or 840x800px (large image).


Anyway, a good starting point.
Well done! =D>

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Re: Ancient Israel

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:29 pm

Cool map, keep up the good work.
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Re: Ancient Israel

Postby oaktown on Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:34 pm

nice work so far. I just want to warn you that somebody will come and attack you for making this map - it happens with every attempt at an israel map. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying it happens. Make sure that as you continue you maintain a historical focus more so than a religious focus and you should be able to weather the shit storm.
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Re: Ancient Israel

Postby Qwert on Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:26 pm

Hmm,im what age these map covers?
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Re: Ancient Israel

Postby ustus on Sun Apr 19, 2009 11:39 pm

Graphics look really nice so far,

As noted earlier (thenobodies...) you have some impassibles that will need to be bridged. Shouldn't be a problem.

Also, since you've got bonuses being the 12 tribes, i think it is important to include Jerusalem as one of the bonus regions. In whatever specific time period you're working, that would have been very important to the nation. At least, in any period where specific land belonged to specific tribes (correct me if i'm wrong, all my knowledge is Old Testament knowledge, I'm only fairly sure it holds true for times not specifically mentioned and i know you're not trying to do a religious map)...

Good luck!
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Re: Ancient Israel

Postby Len44 on Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:33 pm

Update: Second draft.

Thanks everyone for the kind advice. I added bridges where I thought I needed them. I am also considering adding a trade route which connects Gaza, Joppa, ands Tyre, yet I need some feedback on that idea.

I don't know the exact years this map would cover but it would definently be in the BC, sometime when the twelve tribes of Israel existed. I'll have to do some research on that.

Anything else I need to change? I am also currently working on adding bonuses, 2 Oasises for +1, 1 City for +1, and 1 fortress for +2. Is that good, or should I add/change it?

EDIT: Oh, and I'm missing a name for one of East Mannaseh's territories, could someone maybe help me out on that one? Thanks.
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Re: Ancient Israel [2nd draft]

Postby tlane on Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:11 pm

Once again great job so far.

The second draft looks nice, but some people may say it is to light, i think it is fine. Also a trade route could be a really cool idea.
What is the blank box in the bottom left, i am a bit confused about that.

keep up the work
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Re: Ancient Israel [2nd draft]

Postby sailorseal on Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:45 pm

As much as I love the Star of David if we are going with Ancient Israel then it should also have the Muslim and Arab symbols or remove it. I suggest the first option
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Re: Ancient Israel [2nd draft]

Postby bryguy on Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:28 pm

Before I start my comments, I must say that it would be greatly appreciated if you put current versions inside [BigImg] tags, such as the following.
Click image to enlarge.
image


1) Why exactly is there an empty parchment piece in the lower left corner?
2) The texture seems a bit rough. Have you thought of getting a height map for this region? If you look around (Google is your friend ;) ) then I am sure you can find something
3) The bridges are very small and hard to see
4) Is this during the time of the United or Divided monarchy? If this is during the divided monarchy, and you want to go for accuracy, then I suggest that you also split the areas into Israel and Judah.
5) Im not so sure about the accuracy of the placement of each the Israelite tribes. Maybe look at the following pictures? (I am not that sure about the accuracy of it either, but eh) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... Tribes.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... nt_830.svg
6) The style you are using for this map seems strange for Ancient Israel. When I think of Ancient Israel, I think of parchment-like maps. Maybe try it that way?
7) Including the names of the rivers may cause some trouble
8) The colors used for the names of different tribes differs from the actual colors used on the map, and this causes some confusion.
9) Its 12 tribes right? I count 11 :?

You have a good map going here, I cant wait to see how it turns out :)
Last edited by bryguy on Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ancient Israel [2nd draft]

Postby shakeycat on Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:33 pm

It's a handsome map, and I'm glad to see an approach to Israel that cannot really be argued against.

I'm a little disappointed that of 12 tribes, I only see 8 continents, but I also understand that a map full of 1-2 territory bonuses would give many unfair starts.

You even name the Sea of Galilee, good!
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Re: Ancient Israel [2nd draft]

Postby thenobodies80 on Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:13 pm

Also post the current image in the first post

Code: Select all
[BigImg]http://www.majhost.com/gallery/LennyLumas/Art/ai1l.png[/BigImg]


leave the previous versions as link

Your first post is your headquarter of your map.
Everybody has to know all the important most informations,seeing your first post. ;)

You missed a name in the green zone
Where is the brown zone in the minimap? :?

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Re: Ancient Israel [2nd draft]

Postby alexandrois on Fri Apr 24, 2009 1:57 pm

You should add in a jerusalem, i know it's not historically acurate for the time zone, but if you had it and it had a good bonus it would be amazing.Good start though by the way
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Re: Ancient Israel [2nd draft]

Postby Len44 on Fri Apr 24, 2009 6:23 pm

Jerusalem is in the second draft. Issachar and Zebulun are also tribes but not a part on a continent. I think Manasseh originally was all one tribe, but the pic I got it from to split up the tribes showed two different tribes for the east and west sides.

The parchment in the lower-left corner was for the bonuses I'm adding, so please be patient. ;)
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Re: Ancient Israel [2nd draft]

Postby wcaclimbing on Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:45 pm

nice map.
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Re: Ancient Israel [2nd draft]

Postby ustus on Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:12 pm

First: you appear to have three sets of colors: one for the names, one for the mini map, and one for the actual terits. You'll want to equalize this ASAP to make your map easier to understand...
from a gameplay perspective, i'm thinking bonuses are a bit skewed. For instance, I would only ever take Judah-Benjamin by happenstance while working on something else, the bonus just isn't worth it. I personally would prefer to see more impassables, or more choke point terits ... but this is your map, not mine. I really should make one since i say that so often... :roll:
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Re: Ancient Israel [2nd draft]

Postby TaCktiX on Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:45 am

I must agree this map looks great, particularly for a second draft. The textures match the local topography pretty well, and I'd love to know how you did them. That said, here are a few small gripes, some already covered:

Gameplay
- Please clarify the additional bonuses you'll use that bottom parchment for. I think the map is fine as is bonus-wise, but I'll have to see what else you intend before I say yea/nay on anything more. ;)
- Instead of Judah-Benjamin, how about Judah & Benjamin, or Judah and Benjamin? And also consider alphabetical order. As it stands, people who aren't familiar with the Bible will come up with math errors when trying to count up the 12 tribes, as they'll consider Judah-Benjamin as only one tribe.
- I like the bonus numbers you have at present, they're very appropriate for the territory count and borders.

Graphics
- I can tell you're using the same base color for all three places where the bonus regions are represented, but the washout occurring on the map makes them all look different. I would suggest going with lighter colors in the mini-map and the text representation to match what the map LOOKS LIKE, rather than what it may strictly speaking be.
- The bridges seem just a smidge too small. You've got space on all connections to make them wider to make the connection more obvious. Your call, though.
- Mediterranean Sea's text is a bit small for the area it's describing. I realize that it's the same text size as the Dead Sea, but considering that the Mediterranean is much bigger than the scale of this map, noting it with bigger text seems more appropriate.

In closing, I love the area-appropriate naming for all the territories. It makes me thankful I actually read all the 1st and 2nd books in the middle of the Old Testament.

Your map got
Image.
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Re: Ancient Israel [2nd draft]

Postby lt_oddball on Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:13 am

sailorseal wrote:As much as I love the Star of David if we are going with Ancient Israel then it should also have the Muslim and Arab symbols or remove it. I suggest the first option



For the given historic setting there were no muslims... :mrgreen:

But for what it's worth, the david star (king david reign = when ?) wasn't an embedded emblem for these tribes (non-united tribes--hello) at the same historic setting either.
So Sailorseal may have a point there.

I think (I haven't dug in to it) it is best to call the map ANCIENT JUDEAH and remove the david star.
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Re: Ancient Israel [2nd draft]

Postby lt_oddball on Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:21 am

to make the map a bit juicier:
Then as is true now, water was a very important asset of a piece of land.
You could "conquer" miles of land, but if it ain't have water you cannot "hold" it and all effort is useless.

Think of something in which control of a river (both banks) or a sea (Galilea) gives extra bonus!
Dive in to the history to see what parts of land were lush (and valuable) and which parts were arid.
Maybe implement a trade route (a string of territories) which give extra bonus !
Work that into this map.

Really these ideas would make the map stick out any other plain geography copy paste map! O:)
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Re: Ancient Israel [2nd draft]

Postby Len44 on Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:05 pm

ustus, I am fixing that in my next draft (should be done tomorrow), where the names of the bonuses are just dark grey and is next to the minimap with lines pointing to the bonus (on the minimap) that is represents. You'll see what I mean tomorrow.

TaCktiX, using photoshop to create the mountain effect I created a layer and tweaked alot of the blending options and made th fill opacity at zero. I added bevel & emboss effect and added a texture to the b&e (one of the photoshop defaults in fact) and then just got a plain round brush tool and made the hardness really low and painted on some (I think) realistic looking mountains.

it_oddball, A land trade route sounds interesting... I'll see what I can do. But I don't know about having water as territories.

Well, about the whole Star of David debate here, I must admit I don't know alot about what times it was created. I have heard of something else called the "Seal of Solomon" which could possibly be older than the Star of David yet it looks alot like it, except the instead of it being a 6 pointed star, it's two triangles and one is flipped vertically, and interlocking with the other. Example

I completely disagree with Sailorseal on the fact that Ancient Israel (Judeah) was a theocratic nation, and it's religion was Judaism. So, sorry, no muslim or other religious cult symbols on this map. Although I might swap out the Star of David with the Seal of Solomon, which is still a Jewish symbol. ;)

About changing the name to Ancient Judeah (Hey scratch the Ancient part, Judeah by default is ancient!) might be a good idea. :D
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Re: Ancient Israel [2nd draft]

Postby LED ZEPPELINER on Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:30 pm

I will do xml for ya if you want, but is it really necesary to have a mini-map and the bonuses written out?
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Re: Ancient Israel [2nd draft]

Postby the.killing.44 on Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:37 pm

LED ZEPPELINER wrote:is it really necesary to have a mini-map and the bonuses written out?

I think it is. There are a ton of bonuses, a lot of colors, and either no space to fit all the names in the minimap or color confusion in a text key.

I'm still confused what that little parchment at the bottom is for?

For little things, I think the bonus numbers in the minimap can blend in a bit more. I'll say the same for the sea/river names, which are a bit too much and are distracting, actually. I'm not sure if you should just get rid of "Jordan River," or do something so it's not along that single territory, because it seems a little out of place.

I'm not a big fan of your bridges — think it's mostly the bevel that makes them "above" the map instead of something that's "in" the map, if you know what I mean. See gimil's bridges on Feudal War — drop shadow/hand-painted shadows are generally better than bevel for bridges.

You switched some colors up on the minimap (one is that the green in the northeast is brown in the minimap ;) ).

Once again, you've done incredibly on the graphics. =D>

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Re: Ancient Israel [2nd draft]

Postby jyor0385 on Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:42 pm

I don't have anything constructive to say except that I love this map and this idea! Go with it!
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  1. to reduce to utter ruin or nonexistence; destroy utterly.

  2. to destroy the collective existence or main body of; wipe out an army.
  3. to defeat completely; vanquish.
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