[Vacation valid until July 2014] Alamo

Abandoned and Vacationed maps. The final resting place, unless you recycle.

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Re: Alamo map

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Oct 14, 2012 8:42 pm

First of, welcome to the foundry. We are always looking for new blood to feed the hungry wolves. ;) First of, I will point you here. The foundry handbook has lots of info for you but anything you need, just ask away.

I like it and whilst it meats the demands for a drafting room move, I am going to leave it here till you get one done in GIMP. Paint will never give you a map that can progress. I look forward to seeing where you take this one, but here is a final thought for you:

Style - what is this supposed to look like in the end. Go and look at the other maps and decide now on what you hope to achieve with the final map.

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Re: Alamo map

Postby generalhead on Sun Oct 14, 2012 8:53 pm

Thank you for your information and Input.
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Re: Alamo map

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:00 pm

I always find it easier with new map makers if they can clarify what they want so I can help them more and understand what they want. Remember, this is your map and I am here to help you. So anything, just ask.
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Re: Alamo map

Postby generalhead on Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:09 am

I am working on graphics right now. I have run through the natty dread gimp tutorial a few times. Now I am working on a gimp rough draft. Even After I run it through it will still need a lot of detail added.
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Re: Alamo map

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:18 am

nattys tutorial is good for a start. Please do not rely or think it will get you a quenched map. Looking forward to seeing what you give.
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Re: Alamo map

Postby generalhead on Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:05 pm

"Boss Man" can you take a look at my first draft and critique it for me. Thank you for your time.
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Re: Alamo map

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:39 pm

For a first draft, it is interesting. :lol:

But here are a few simple things you can do to make it a whole lot better.
Go and learn GIMP. Follow nattys guides, and here are a few places that you can visit.
http://www.cgtextures.com/
This guy is good. Has lots of videos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E84BNlYvcNk&feature=related

Your territ breakup is good.
Fill the bonus zones in with solid colour for now as I cannot tell what is what.
GP looks pretty much organised now so that can be left alone till a lot later.
Images need to be royalty free. So you need to prove the ones you have are. But does a pirate fit this map?
Never use the pencil.

GH, this map is going into the drafting room as it meets the criteria. [Moved]
The more you post new drafts, the more you will get in the way of feedback. Do not wait for it as it may not come. Keep practising and keep posting improved drafts. Until it is good enough, it stays in the drafting room.
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Re: Alamo map

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:13 am

Now that you are in the drafting room, you need to keep the title of the thread up to date.

Name - date - page number of current image.
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Re: Alamo map [20/10] Pg1

Postby generalhead on Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:37 am

"Boss Man" can you take a look at my New Alamo draft and critique it for me. Thank you for your time. :D
I basically started the map from new. I kept the layout the same, but had to start over due to some continuity issues. I redid the texture and revamped the Alamo walls.
I changed the texture of the north-east key. And I moved the impassables to the south-west key.
Do you think I need to add some trees or would that create too much clutter?
What major issues do I need to work on?
What am I missing?
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Re: Alamo map [20/10] Pg1

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:48 am

I must say, from your first one, it is getting better. (Take the current draft out of spoiler tags so everyone can see it when they come into the thread).

Colours - mute them a lot - very bright now.
Lines - still to think. You have used the paths tool but why do you have some straight, some curved and some of both? Use one type, a curve is best. Some do not even meet. Use a fuzzy paint brush as well.

Keep at it, keep plugging away. It is getting better.

A useful tip for you - advertise your map. Use your signature and even send a PM to friends and clan mates. You are going to need more than me to get this going forward.
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Re: Alamo map [20/10] Pg1

Postby tkr4lf on Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:00 am

I like the idea. As a native of Texas, I've always enjoyed the story of the Alamo, so to be able to play it on a CC map would be cool.

I'll echo Koontz in saying that the colors need to be muted quite a bit. Also with the territ/border lines. They look pretty bad. Especially the ones bordering the river, they're very pixelated/jagged and could use some cleaning up.

Any particular reason why Davy Crockett is outside of the Alamo? On the same note, why is Santa Anna in the North Plains and not in one of the Mexican Army areas?

Also, what's up with the river/s? Is that how the river actually is? I know there is a river near the alamo, because of the River Walk down in San Antonio, but I'm not all that familiar with the layout. Is your depiction of it fairly accurate? It just seems a bit odd is all...

Nice first draft(s).
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Re: Alamo map [20/10] Pg1

Postby generalhead on Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:42 am

Thank all you for your input. :)
  1. I will fix the colors
  2. For some when I struck the territory lines they came out like that, that will be addressed
  3. For davey Crockett and Santa anna being outside of their territories, I was trying to make the game play more balanced, but now that you point that out it does seem silly
  4. In all of the Alamo diagrams that I research there were either rivers or some kind of water way around the Alamo, I did modify them for game play
  5. I will start to advertise, I didn't know that it was a requirement
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Re: Alamo map [20/10] Pg1

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:43 am

Yep, the pics I looked at, the river does seem to go like this. It is almost like a moat going around the fort.

tk, any help you can give with the story and history would be received very well by GH, but more so by me as I do not know this story apart from the fort was lost.

Adverts are not required, but it always help to get more input on a map.
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Re: Alamo map [20/10] Pg1

Postby tkr4lf on Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:55 am

Ok, fair enough about the river. I will admit, I don't know the area all that well, only been to the Alamo a couple of times.

As for the story, give me a bit to think on it and see how any of it could be added to the gameplay for the map. I'm sure something cool could be added to really make the gameplay stand out and add to the theme.

I'll post back in a bit.
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Re: Alamo map [20/10] Pg1

Postby generalhead on Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:20 pm

yes, definitely tk if you could help me keep the integrity of the map that would be great. I would not want to offend you or any one else that is from Texas by doing a unrealistic Alamo map. Thank you.
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Re: Alamo map [20/10] Pg1

Postby tkr4lf on Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:03 pm

Ha, you wouldn't offend me at all. But sure, I'll try to do what I can. I think it's more about making the map all that it can be than trying to be as historically accurate as possible. Being historically accurate is nice, but fun gameplay is even better.

I just spent the past several minutes reading up on the wiki article for the Battle of the Alamo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Alamo). There is lots of information in there that you could use, mainly about placement of cannons and armies, plus names of commanders that you could name the bonuses after instead of a generic "Mexican Army 1", etc. Having each one named after the commander that led the attack would be a nice touch.

Here is some of the more important stuff I found.

The first night of the siege was relatively quiet.[49] Over the next few days, Mexican soldiers established artillery batteries, initially about 1,000 feet (300 m) from the south and east walls of the Alamo.[50] A third battery was positioned southeast of the fort.


Santa Anna posted one company east of the Alamo, on the road to Gonzales.[51][64] Almonte and 800 dragoons were stationed along the road to Goliad.[65]


At 10 p.m. on March 5, the Mexican artillery ceased their bombardment. As Santa Anna had anticipated, the exhausted Texians soon fell into the first uninterrupted sleep many had gotten since the siege began.[90] Just after midnight Mexican troops began preparing for the final assault.[91] The troops were divided into four columns, commanded by Cos, Colonel Francisco Duque, Colonel José María Romero and Colonel Juan Morales.[88][89] Veterans were positioned on the outside of the columns to better control the new recruits and conscripts in the middle.[92] As a precaution, 500 Mexican cavalry were positioned around the Alamo to prevent escape of either Texian or Mexican soldiers. Santa Anna remained in camp with the 400 reserves.[89][93]


At 5:30 a.m. troops silently advanced. Cos and his men approached the northwest corner of the Alamo,[92] while Duque led his men from the northwest toward a repaired breach in the Alamo's north wall.[95] The column commanded by Romero marched towards the east wall, and Morales's column aimed for the low parapet by the chapel.[95]


During the third strike, Romero's column, aiming for the east wall, was exposed to cannon fire and shifted to the north, mingling with the second column.[20] Cos's column, under fire from Texians on the west wall, also veered north.[102] When Santa Anna saw that the bulk of his army was massed against the north wall, he feared a rout; "panicked", he sent the reserves into the same area.[103]


Some pictures I found that are interesting. Can be used for cannon/army placement, etc.

Image
This one is some game that you can play (online, I guess?). Looks interesting. Pretty useful for locations of cannons and armies (although these may not be entirely accurate, see later photos) as well as to show you the different types of walls. Notice how the Northeast and South Central portions of the wall are basically just palisade, instead of the thick walls of the rest of the mission.

Image
I couldn't find one showing the roads around the Alamo and where they lead to, but this one shows where Goliad is in relation to the Alamo so that the information above (Almonte and 800 dragoons were stationed along the road to Goliad.) can be used as best is possible.


Image
Here's one showing the troop movements of the first wave.


There is a lot more information in the wiki article, as well as out there on the rest of the internet. This should give you plenty of information about where to place the Mexican armies, what to name them (after their respective commanders), where to place the cannons inside the fort, etc.

Some thoughts on gameplay I had were possibly expanding the auto-deployable people from just Santa Anna and Crockett to Austin, Bowie and Crockett for the Texians, and Santa Anna, Cos, Duque, Romero and Morales for the Mexicans. That might be too much, but it could be cool to have each of the major commanders/big personalities on the map as auto-deploys to convey their significance to the fight. Bowie, might be worth it to instead of making him an auto-deploy, making him worth say a +1 or +2 to the deploy, thanks to his charisma, etc., but to have a decay on his actual terit, to signify his illness and the fact that he didn't even partake in the battle, since he was basically on his deathbed.

There is a lot more that could be done with this, too.

I'll let you mill this stuff over and post your next draft before I add any more ideas. It might be worth it to completely re-draw the map so that there is room on the eastern side of the fort, since a lot of action took place there as well, it seems. Up to you though.

Hope this helped.

(As a side note, I just realized that the attack took place on March 6, which just happens to be my birthday. Crazy stuff.)
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Re: Alamo map [20/10] Pg1

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:08 pm

Great job tk. Now lets see what GH does with it.
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Re: Alamo map [20/10] Pg1

Postby generalhead on Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:25 pm

Wow, you are awesome tk, this will definitely come in handy. Thank you :)
and now its time to get to work, back to the grind.
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Re: Alamo map [20/10] Pg1

Postby tkr4lf on Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:41 pm

Sure, no problem.

I'm excited to see what you come up with. :)
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Re: Alamo map [20/10] Pg1

Postby generalhead on Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:11 pm

  1. alot of my border lines are still too thick and worbly, I will work on that
  2. I will also review tk's notes and check on game play and factuality.
  3. deleting one indian region (one is enough)
  4. checking continuity
  5. revamping game play
  6. adding bonus regions
  7. looking to add roads
  8. adding army commanders for both sides
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Re: Alamo map [21/10] Pg1

Postby MagnusGreeol on Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:08 am

Salut General & Koontz,,
Bravo for Your ideas and involvement both of You,, General- I say it's a great plan,,,,And after reading what Koontz has to say,,I'd say Conquer Club Members are lucky to have Him,,,Seriously Big Helper,,,I can't give info like that,,,But I'll back You General ,,Do what Koontz suggest and hopefully We see each-other at >>>>>--------THE-ALAMO-----------> LOL2U Both---- In Life & WAR----------->>>>--------MAG-OUT--------->
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Re: Alamo map [20/10] Pg1

Postby tkr4lf on Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:25 am

generalhead wrote:
  1. alot of my border lines are still too thick and worbly, I will work on that
  2. I will also review tk's notes and check on game play and factuality.
  3. deleting one indian region (one is enough)
  4. checking continuity
  5. revamping game play
  6. adding bonus regions
  7. looking to add roads
  8. adding army commanders for both sides

About the Indians...

It may be worth it to get rid of them altogether. The way I see it, they don't add much to the gameplay and honestly seem to take up room that could be better used to focus on the actual battle. The Indians basically didn't play a role at all in the actual Battle of the Alamo. According to the wiki article, the biggest role they played was in attacking the Mexican army on it's way north from Mexico, but quite a bit before they made it to San Antonio de Bexar. So truthfully, they don't really belong on a map that portrays the battle. Plus, like I said, getting rid of them will clear up room for more Mexicans. It seems like they just about had the Alamo surrounded, so having all the land around the Alamo as Mexican armies would be better than having Commanches there for some reason. It would also give you more room to be able to have 5 different Mexican army areas, so that you could have all 5 major Mexican commanders placed onto the map.

Just a thought, do with it what you will. Looking forward to your next draft. :)
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Re: Alamo map [21/10] Pg1

Postby generalhead on Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:46 am

That's is a very good point. I will do that. Thank you Tk you are awesome! :)
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Re: Alamo map [21/10] Pg1

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:39 am

GH, here are a few things to get your background colours dealt with and a way to get your lines sorted.
Here are 5 pictures to help you get going on sorting it all out. You have layers in GIMP (I hope you are using this). Use layers to the max. As this is your first map, have a layer for everything. From small dots to large swaths of colour.
This first one will give you a colour palette to work from. All I did was use the gradient tool with the same colour (dark and light). Find a set of colours you like this way and stick to them. As you are going for a historical map, it would be nice to see them from the left side of this. Some different shades can be used like for water but a good rule is to see if you can stay in one area of the palette.
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In this second one, all I did was lower the opacity of the colour layer. It brings out the layer below but it changes the colours as you have now added the colour from the layer below. Do not worry, colours can be changed later. But the big benefit of this is it allows the texture from the layer below to show through.
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Now this is where things can get interesting, but give great results for a little work. Duplicate the layer with the colour on. You can do this by clicking on the layer so a box pops up. On the duplicated layer, add some noise (I see you have done this). Now go to filters and find emboss under distort. You will get a box with slides in. By moving these around you can get some bumps and valleys of varying light/darkness. It will be in black and white. The next two pics show you the difference between the layer opacity.
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Lastly, this is the background paper I used. It is the same paper I used in the Alternative history map.
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Now for lines.
When you do you lines, thicker ones use the Circle Fuzzy (03) (5+5) at 100% size. For thinner lines like borders between territories go for the same brush but set it at around 85%. You can change the size of the brush in the paint brush tab under scale. Make sure you use the paint brush at all times. Later, we can go through ink and what not but for now, use this.

GH, I know this is a lot of info for you but the only way to get better is to go ahead and do it. Practise makes for a better map. Keep posting and I will help. I will leave it to you and tk for the historical parts of the map. ;) But I will warn you, the GP mods will check up on the facts.
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Re: Alamo map [21/10] Pg1

Postby Seamus76 on Sun Oct 21, 2012 12:27 pm

MagnusGreeol wrote:Salut General & Koontz,,
Bravo for Your ideas and involvement both of You,, General- I say it's a great plan,,,,And after reading what Koontz has to say,,I'd say Conquer Club Members are lucky to have Him,,,Seriously Big Helper,,,I can't give info like that,,,But I'll back You General ,,Do what Koontz suggest and hopefully We see each-other at >>>>>--------THE-ALAMO-----------> LOL2U Both---- In Life & WAR----------->>>>--------MAG-OUT--------->


So true!!

Now for lines.
When you do you lines, thicker ones use the Circle Fuzzy (03) (5+5) at 100% size. For thinner lines like borders between territories go for the same brush but set it at around 85%. You can change the size of the brush in the paint brush tab under scale. Make sure you use the paint brush at all times. Later, we can go through ink and what not but for now, use this.


There are a couple of ways to do this of course. I use the Path Tool, and then Stroke them. This allows you to change the size based on pixels, it also allows you to use patterns, colors, etc. But most importantly change them around and re-stroke them as need be. Very easy. Just use the layer groups and stroke the right layer. I do one for each region, etc.

Good luck, and let me know if you have a questions or there is anything I can do to help.
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