[Abandoned] - Switzerland

[the.killing.44]

Quite a few people will notice that the font is Helvetica, actually. It's a Swiss invention and fits perfectly with the map. Go with it!

Out of 20,000, how many do you predict? Less than 100.

[ghirrindin]

Do you really want to argue about numbers?

Look, the map depicts contemporary Switzerland, and I think Helvetica appropriately captures late twentieth/early twenty-first century Swiss aesthetics.

[the.killing.44]

Do you really want to argue about numbers?

Look, the map depicts contemporary Switzerland, and I think Helvetica appropriately captures late twentieth/early twenty-first century Swiss aesthetics.

And it looks boring as shit! The point is, if a huge majority of people don't recognize the font and what it means, it just looks boring. Using it for tert names? Fine. For every single aspect of the map? Just boring.

[ghirrindin]

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on the matter then. I get what he's going for and appreciate it, and I don't think he should worry about a couple of people being bored by the font on the map.

Incidentally, this argument is quite humorous, especially considering the discussion that surrounded the last map of Switzerland by Kaplowitz. That map was ruthlessly attacked for not being Swiss enough. Here we have Pamoa's rendition with a Swiss font and Swiss national colors, and yet the foundry community ripped those elements apart.

Although, I will admit that the really bright red was hard on the eyes.

[Evil DIMwit]

The more I look at this map the more solid the gameplay seems. Time for a stamp, that's what I say.

[jefjef]

Hi Pomoa!

Thought I'd stop and look real quick.

I have to wonder how this map would look with diff colors for the neighboring countries. Germ. France. Italy. Instead of just a kinda bland red.

[pamoa]

Hi pamoa!
Thought I'd stop and look real quick.
I have to wonder how this map would look with diff colors for the neighbouring countries. Germ. France. Italy. Instead of just a kinda bland red.

thanks for dropping
the graphic concept is the Swiss flag white cross in a red square
so sorry but I'll stick to this
and I'm still waiting for my gameplay stamp

[Incandenza]

So having looked thru the thread, I can't help but notice that no one's said anything about what, to me, seems like a large gameplay issue: the dead ends. I count 8, 9 if you include Geneve (which is behind Lausanne). That's a lot, tho solving the problem might be difficult (i.e. adding roads to resort towns, or having all foreign cities be able to attack each other, or something). It's not a deal-breaker, but it's worth talking about, since maps with a substantial percentage of dead-end terits have been generally considered a Bad Thing.

[pamoa]

So having looked thru the thread, I can't help but notice that no one's said anything about what, to me, seems like a large gameplay issue: the dead ends. I count 8, 9 if you include Geneve (which is behind Lausanne). That's a lot, to solving the problem might be difficult (i.e. adding roads to resort towns, or having all foreign cities be able to attack each other, or something). It's not a deal-breaker, but it's worth talking about, since maps with a substantial percentage of dead-end terits have been generally considered a Bad Thing.

for me having all foreign cities connected is fine
it's only an instruction string in the legend
if you think it will help the gameplay making it more open
on the opposite adding roads make no sense for me
but maybe inventing some helicopter connection between touristic resorts
it may be an aerial connection theme:

airplanes connects all foreign cities
helicopters connects all touristic resorts

[Evil DIMwit]

So having looked thru the thread, I can't help but notice that no one's said anything about what, to me, seems like a large gameplay issue: the dead ends. I count 8, 9 if you include Geneve (which is behind Lausanne). That's a lot, tho solving the problem might be difficult (i.e. adding roads to resort towns, or having all foreign cities be able to attack each other, or something). It's not a deal-breaker, but it's worth talking about, since maps with a substantial percentage of dead-end terits have been generally considered a Bad Thing.

Really, shallow dead ends -- dead ends with a depth of one -- are all right. You can conquer them, not transfer any troops onto them, and move on from the territory they're attached to. That's not so bad, particularly in a map like this with collector-style gameplay. It's the deeper dead ends that disrupts a player from conquering on through. I only count two of those -- Lyon and Stuttgart. Resolve those as you might, but the other 'dead ends' are fine in my mind.

airplanes connects all foreign cities
helicopters connects all touristic resorts

That changes gameplay quite a bit; it turns each set of collectible territories into a continent of sorts. It'd make the bonuses for external cities and resorts easier to take and harder to hold -- I think that's a negative effect.

[pamoa]

sure it change the gameplay
what I see is that my proposition make it more like a whirlpool
but I must admit I'm not good at evaluating the real impact of the 2 options
maybe should I make a poll
even if until now I had very few answers

[Evil DIMwit]

sure it change the gameplay
what I see is that my proposition make it more like a whirlpool
but I must admit I'm not good at evaluating the real impact of the 2 options
maybe should I make a poll
even if until now I had very few answers

I don't think a whirlpool is really what you want to go for -- then it becomes more a contest of luck than strategy. You've already got a fairly open map and there'll probably be a good amount of back-and-forth as it is.

[pamoa]

so I should leave it as it is ?
for me it's fine because it was the original design
I don't really like maps where you always have to watch your back to prevent any intruders

[Evil DIMwit]

A couple of major issues have shown up in cartographer discussions:

A) The number of territories in the map, 47, means that in 3-player games, each player starts with 15 territories, which gives the first player a significant advantage. The nearest territory counts that mitigate such advantages are 44 and 52; 39-43 and 53 do as well.

B) More importantly, in 3-player games, it's more likely than not that some player will start the game with a French cities bonus and that some player (possibly the same one) will start with a foreign cities bonus. Moreover, it is guaranteed that at least one player will start out with a resort bonus. This is not a good thing for game balance.

As far as solutions for B... It's hard to say straight away. Maybe increasing the number of territories needed for a bonus; decreasing the bonus values; and some combination of starting positions. Coming up with a scheme that maximizes the start fairness for this map (without changing the gameplay radically) stands to be no mean feat.

[pamoa]

I'm sorry but I'm not good about gameplay issue
and as english is not my mother tongue I'm not sure to understand your last sentence
do you see any solution about what you said

[Evil DIMwit]

I'm sorry but I'm not good about gameplay issue
and as english is not my mother tongue I'm not sure to understand your last sentence
do you see any solution about what you said

Oh. Sorry about that. Basically, making the map fair without changing the gameplay too much is not going to be easy. I don't have a solution right now.

[iancanton]

to stop players from starting with bonuses, i propose that u have 5 neutral-starting key cities (perhaps show them by using a troop square instead of a troop circle); all non-highway bonuses need a player to hold any key city to activate the bonus.

this tries to represent the idea that, to gain reinforcements for ur army (or political movement, or whatever), u must persuade people that u have credibility. to gain credibility, u must hold a key city.

one possibility for key cities is bern, zürich, genève, basel and lugano. if the 5 key cities start neutral, then the number of starting regions is 42 and no start positions are needed.

ian.

[Evil DIMwit]

this tries to represent the idea that, to gain reinforcements for ur army (or political movement, or whatever), u must persuade people that u have credibility. to gain credibility, u must hold a key city.

I don't think it really needs to represent anything, but this is an idea. Must it only be 5, though? I foresee 6-8 player games becoming a mad scramble for these cities followed by highly cautious stacking on the part of anyone who owns a city, and chronic frustration for anyone who doesn't own one.

[pamoa]

to stop players from starting with bonuses, i propose that u have 5 neutral-starting key cities (perhaps show them by using a troop square instead of a troop circle); all non-highway bonuses need a player to hold any key city to activate the bonus.
this tries to represent the idea that, to gain reinforcements for ur army (or political movement, or whatever), u must persuade people that u have credibility. to gain credibility, u must hold a key city.
one possibility for key cities is Bern, Zürich, Genève, Basel and Lugano. if the 5 key cities start neutral, then the number of starting regions is 42 and no start positions are needed.

I like simple solution
Bern, Zürich, Genève, Basel and Lugano starting neutral is fine for me

I'm not sure to understand the first part
does that mean you have to hold 11 German speaking cities and one of the 3 key German speaking cities Bern, Zürich, or Basel in order to get the +7 bonus
and the same for 4 French speaking cities and Genève for the +4 bonus

it could work although it seems hell to code
can anyone help me with this part

but it need 2 French speaking key cities there are 2 set of bonus possible
we can save the 5 neutral starting position by coding Lugano and Bellinzona as 2 starting position but not neutral
so no one get this bonus starting
we can always keep Lugano as a key city for linguistic fairness (actually I'm living in Lugano)
as you need to hold both cities to have the bonus

and lower the German speaking cities bonus ratio to +5 each 7 cities so we can have 3 set of bonus fitting the 3 key cities

I like the balance coming out of it
a very Swiss compromise
3 German speaking bonus possible around 3 key cities
2 French speaking bonus possible around 2 key cities
1 Italian speaking bonus possible around 1 key cities

[iancanton]

Must it only be 5, though? I foresee 6-8 player games becoming a mad scramble for these cities followed by highly cautious stacking on the part of anyone who owns a city, and chronic frustration for anyone who doesn't own one.

it doesn't have to be 5 key cities. 5 does fit the geography reasonably well and gives us 42 non-neutral regions though.

all non-highway bonuses need a player to hold any key city to activate the bonus.

does that mean you have to hold 11 German speaking cities and one of the 3 key German speaking cities Bern, Zürich, or Basel in order to get the +7 bonus
and the same for 4 French speaking cities and Genève for the +4 bonus

no, my intention was that u must hold any key city to activate the language, resort, foreign and founding member bonuses. the italian bonus is the only one where u must hold a particular key city, lugano (because all italian-speaking cities are needed for that bonus).

it could work although it seems hell to code
can anyone help me with this part

it's the german bonus that will be hell to code! i think all u need to do with the key cities is to add each key city to each bonus combination as a required item. when i have time, i'll try to find an example from another map to show u, unless someone else finds one first!

but it need 2 French speaking key cities there are 2 set of bonus possible

one key city activates all bonuses, so only one is needed.

I like the balance coming out of it
a very Swiss compromise
3 German speaking bonus possible around 3 key cities
2 French speaking bonus possible around 2 key cities
1 Italian speaking bonus possible around 1 key cities

if u'd like a second francophone key city, then add another region to the map (to make 42 non-neutral regions). however, all well-known french-speaking cities on the map (lausanne, sion and neuchâtel) are too close to genève, which is already the key city in the strongest, most secure position. can u think of another candidate?

ian.

[pamoa]

Neuchâtel as the capital of the Swiss watch making

[iancanton]

if u'd like a second francophone key city, then add another region to the map (to make 42 non-neutral regions). however, all well-known french-speaking cities on the map (lausanne, sion and neuchâtel) are too close to genève, which is already the key city in the strongest, most secure position.

if u make neuchâtel a key city, then it is very close to genève, so i suggest that u add yverdon-les-bains between neuchâtel and lausanne to keep some distance between them.

http://www.yverdonlesbains-tourisme.ch/e/home/

ian.

[pamoa]

I would prefer not adding a city
but what if I simply made the five cities starting neutral
without the complicated theme of the key city
would it work ?

[Evil DIMwit]

but what if I simply made the five cities starting neutral
without the complicated theme of the key city
would it work ?

No, it wouldn't. The idea is to have some way to prevent a player from starting out with a bonus. If you don't need the key cities for a bonus, then nothing prevents the first player from having a 2- or 3- or 4-troop advantage on their first turn.

[pamoa]

and is it possible to calculate the percentage of risk