Conquer Club

Poker Club [Quenched]

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Which version is easier to see the army numbers on?

Poll ended at Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:09 am

Version 12
2
22%
Version 13
7
78%
 
Total votes : 9

Re: Poker Map (Page 1 & 8)

Postby yeti_c on Fri May 02, 2008 3:39 pm

cicero wrote:
yeti_c wrote:Once we get the layout done pat as far as we can - WM will knock up some uber sweet GFX...

My job is to do the XML - & the design/layout...

So comments on Layout are what we need.
Yeti ... because of the layout it's hard to spot what the tactical patterns are that are forming ... hmmm ... (Not criticising just observing.)

I assume we're looking at a traditional random drop? Or are you still considering some set neutrals?
At this point I find myself thinking that a pure traditional drop would be nice.


Yeah - Due to the huge amounts of bonus available - it is very hard to see what strategies people will come up with... my plan is to to try and make it as hard as possible... i.e. no runs & matching numbers & groups of suits.

With the map in it's current state - a random drop would suit the style... but will it break the gameplay?

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Re: Poker Map (Page 1 & 8)

Postby rocky mountain on Fri May 02, 2008 3:41 pm

Click image to enlarge.
image


you know how it says: Attack Up, Down, Left & Right? it can't say that when it's shuffled. say "Attack a touching card" or something of the sort, cuz "Attack a touching card" sounds weird... plus the 10s look like 11s :D

also in the top there is another cluster of 9-Ace: 9 diamonds, 10 spades, J diamonds, Q diamonds, and K spades...
other than that, the layout seems OK... good job so far!

EDIT: i caught something else... on the right hand side, there is a flush: the 5,6,9,J and Q in a group...
thats all for now
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Re: Poker Map (Page 1 & 8)

Postby yeti_c on Fri May 02, 2008 3:49 pm

rocky mountain wrote:you know how it says: Attack Up, Down, Left & Right? it can't say that when it's shuffled. say "Attack a touching card" or something of the sort, cuz "Attack a touching card" sounds weird... plus the 10s look like 11s :D


yeti wrote:PS - note I need to remove the "attack up down left right" comment - as that is no longer valid.


rocky mountain wrote:also in the top there is another cluster of 9-Ace: 9 diamonds, 10 spades, J diamonds, Q diamonds, and K spades...
other than that, the layout seems OK... good job so far!


Not so worried about this one as there are interspersing cards...

rocky mountain wrote:EDIT: i caught something else... on the right hand side, there is a flush: the 5,6,9,J and Q in a group...
thats all for now


Good spot... I'll deal with that one...

Also - there is a straight on the left corner A-4-2-3-5

Another Flush bottom left made up of spades.

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Re: Poker Map (Page 1 & 8)

Postby yeti_c on Fri May 02, 2008 4:48 pm

OK a few more thoughts...

With 52 cards/territories.

Territories -> Players
6 -> 8
7 -> 7
8 -> 6
10 -> 5
13 -> 4
17 -> 3,2

If I add 12 neutrals (1 of each card except 2 of oscillating suits - means that highest bonus possibly is full house (unless very luck then a 4 of a kind is still available)

Territories -> Players
5 -> 8
5 -> 7
6 - > 6
8 -> 5
10 -> 4
13 -> 3,2

Thoughts?

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Re: Poker Map (Page 1 & 8)

Postby yeti_c on Mon May 05, 2008 10:55 am

Click image to enlarge.
image


OK - latest layout changes...

Removed the 2 flushes by swapping some clubs and spades between them...

Swapped 4 and 6 of diamons to stop the straight (a-5) in the top left.

Reworded "attackable" legend.

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Re: Poker Map (Page 1 & 9)

Postby gimil on Mon May 05, 2008 9:59 pm

Image

Can you clean up the first page in prepertaion on oaktown? E.g dont post all previous updates in img tags :)

Now let WM work his magic :)
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Re: Poker Map (Page 1 & 9)

Postby yeti_c on Tue May 06, 2008 3:02 am

gimil wrote:Image

Can you clean up the first page in prepertaion on oaktown? E.g dont post all previous updates in img tags :)

Now let WM work his magic :)


Cheers g-dawg...

Updated first page - and [I]'d my title...

Looking forward to Oaktown to give me some comments about gameplay before WM can do his stuff...

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Re: Poker Map (Page 1 & 9) [I]

Postby oaktown on Tue May 06, 2008 10:18 pm

Poker... deal me in.

The color of the legend text against that background is absolutely hideous. Maybe it's my laptop monitor, but I can't even focus on it - I will assume the legend is a work in progress. :shock:

Best hand gains bonus - best hand per player I assume. It should probably say that even though to do otherwise would be impossible to code (but how many players know that?). Brilliant solution to the age-old problem of how to assign bonuses to a deck of cards.

No other bonuses - does that mean no automatic three reinforcement armies per turn? Ah, I see by your first post that it does. Again, more clarification needed, because I don't think of the reinforcements as "bonuses."

Legend clarity is going to be of great importance on this map. I don't think it would a bad idea to somewhere show the rank of the cards in a deck, 2 through A, for any players who have been living under a rock and have never seen a western deck of cards. Maybe down the right side of the legend? And example representations of the hands might help out as well.

Chances are many players will start with at least a pair, since there are so many different ways to hold one. Thus I think the +3 is a bit steep, because it gives advantages to the players who get their turns early. If I go fifth, four players have had a drop of three armies each to pummel me and anybody who goes after me, leaving us with an initial bonus of only one and I'm done. I think I'd play with bonuses to make the beginning of the game more equitable - maybe give everybody a minumum of three, plus a fourth army for holding a pair, five for two pair, etc. What's more, everybody is used to starting a turn with three armies... you'll be getting some nasty PMs about this map when players start their turns with 1!

Another thought - what if everybody also got a +1 auto-placement on their highest card? you could work that out in the XML with 52 bonus regions, each of which overrides the card a value below it. Though I guess you'd need to rank the suits as well... hmmm... maybe not scrap that idea.

You've got a world of hurt on your hands in terms of where to put all the cards, because this could so easily lead to frustrating play. I think you need to consciously set up some easy pairs so players can try to plant themselves up in a sector of the map and set up some borders. For instance, right now I like the top left corner, because you can grab a pair of twos, expand to make it three twos, then grab another queen for a full house; six contiguous cards give you a +8. Not sure if every corner has the same advantage.

Finally, this map needs space. While I think wording of the legend is vital, it would be nice if you could push out the space provided to the cards to make it very easy to identifyt he bottlenecks and key connections.

Whew... I think your work is cut out for you here Yeti!
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Re: Poker Map (Page 1 & 9) [I]

Postby yeti_c on Wed May 07, 2008 3:19 am

oaktown wrote:Poker... deal me in.

The color of the legend text against that background is absolutely hideous. Maybe it's my laptop monitor, but I can't even focus on it - I will assume the legend is a work in progress. :shock:


Agreed!! Legend will be WM's territory so ignore that for now.

oaktown wrote:Best hand gains bonus - best hand per player I assume. It should probably say that even though to do otherwise would be impossible to code (but how many players know that?). Brilliant solution to the age-old problem of how to assign bonuses to a deck of cards.


Yes - best hand per player... can definitely be added into the legend.

oaktown wrote:No other bonuses - does that mean no automatic three reinforcement armies per turn? Ah, I see by your first post that it does. Again, more clarification needed, because I don't think of the reinforcements as "bonuses."


OK no probs.

oaktown wrote:Legend clarity is going to be of great importance on this map. I don't think it would a bad idea to somewhere show the rank of the cards in a deck, 2 through A, for any players who have been living under a rock and have never seen a western deck of cards. Maybe down the right side of the legend? And example representations of the hands might help out as well.


I'm 99% sure that everyone at CC knows what a deck of cards looks like - so I might deny the 2->A thing... But agree that representations of hands in the legend might be a good idea.

oaktown wrote:Chances are many players will start with at least a pair, since there are so many different ways to hold one. Thus I think the +3 is a bit steep, because it gives advantages to the players who get their turns early. If I go fifth, four players have had a drop of three armies each to pummel me and anybody who goes after me, leaving us with an initial bonus of only one and I'm done. I think I'd play with bonuses to make the beginning of the game more equitable - maybe give everybody a minumum of three, plus a fourth army for holding a pair, five for two pair, etc. What's more, everybody is used to starting a turn with three armies... you'll be getting some nasty PMs about this map when players start their turns with 1!


OK - this is the interesting bit... I decided on +3 for this - because of the "no other bonus thing"... perhaps if I made "minimum reinforcements" = 2 (then no bonus for territories) - then nothing for high card... +2 for pair? +3 for 2 pair? (And lower all the other bonuses by 1. Would that work?

oaktown wrote:Another thought - what if everybody also got a +1 auto-placement on their highest card? you could work that out in the XML with 52 bonus regions, each of which overrides the card a value below it. Though I guess you'd need to rank the suits as well... hmmm... maybe not scrap that idea.


Not possible in current XML

oaktown wrote:You've got a world of hurt on your hands in terms of where to put all the cards, because this could so easily lead to frustrating play. I think you need to consciously set up some easy pairs so players can try to plant themselves up in a sector of the map and set up some borders. For instance, right now I like the top left corner, because you can grab a pair of twos, expand to make it three twos, then grab another queen for a full house; six contiguous cards give you a +8. Not sure if every corner has the same advantage.


The layout "as-is" is to try and stop people from getting things next to each other... because the combinations are so vast and huge... the idea is to try and make it harder for decent hands - your comments about a full house in the top right are perhaps a bit worrying - I might break that up - My idea for the map is to try and get people to forge new strategies instead of trying to blockade themselves into a corner.

oaktown wrote:Finally, this map needs space. While I think wording of the legend is vital, it would be nice if you could push out the space provided to the cards to make it very easy to identifyt he bottlenecks and key connections.


Yeah - some of the cards are close to (on the edges) -> we'll have to wait and see what WM can come up with.

oaktown wrote:Whew... I think your work is cut out for you here Yeti!


Cheers.

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Re: Poker Map (Page 1 & 8)

Postby DiM on Fri May 09, 2008 7:16 am

gameplay concerns.
first of all i'm worried that there's no terit bonus. this means in an 8p game (where chances you get something more than high card) you'll start with 6 terits of 3 army each and deploy just 1. this means your first attack will be 4v3. very high chances of failing. so unless you plan on attacking with all your terits 3v3 (which is suicidal) there are high chances your first round will end after a 4v3 ends at 2v3. no bonus gained no card gained. and if your terits aren't connected no chance to stack some armies
in second round. you have 1 to deploy. place it on top of another 3 and attack again it might end 2v3 and you're screwed.
if you get 2-3 turns like that then you can say good bye to your points.

also it's worth mentioning the only reason you would attack is if you want to get a bonus. the easiest to do is a pair. but what if you have no opportunity of a pair? what if your closest chance of getting a bonus is 2 terits away? it means you have to kill 6 troops. that's horribly hard and it may take you 4-5 rounds of deploying that 1 army on the same terit until you have enough troops to go for the bonus, and even then 2 bad rolls will totally destroy you. so basically because there aren't enough troops to deploy in the start a player has very big chances of never getting to take a bonus or even a card. and if the game is flat rate a guy with lucky rolls may be a clear leader after 3 turns.
combine this shitty luck with a guy that starts with a pair (quite possible) and you have a totally unbalanced start.

my suggestion is adding the normal bonus for terit count. those +3 armies will mean a lot and allow for smooth unfrustrating starts and at the same time they won't unbalance anything because in 2p games you start with 17 terits. that means 5 troops plus high card. that's 6 and you need to kill 3 opponent terits to lower his starting bonus from 6 to 5.

the cards seem pretty shuffled and i haven't spotted an adjacent pair (except for the 2 kings in lower right, but i'm not sure they touch).
and speaking of touching some connections are confusing: the 2 kings mentioned above, or the 7of spades and 6 of clubs
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Re: Poker Map (Page 1 & 8)

Postby yeti_c on Fri May 09, 2008 8:28 am

DiM wrote:gameplay concerns.
first of all i'm worried that there's no terit bonus. this means in an 8p game (where chances you get something more than high card) you'll start with 6 terits of 3 army each and deploy just 1. this means your first attack will be 4v3. very high chances of failing. so unless you plan on attacking with all your terits 3v3 (which is suicidal) there are high chances your first round will end after a 4v3 ends at 2v3. no bonus gained no card gained. and if your terits aren't connected no chance to stack some armies
in second round. you have 1 to deploy. place it on top of another 3 and attack again it might end 2v3 and you're screwed.
if you get 2-3 turns like that then you can say good bye to your points.

also it's worth mentioning the only reason you would attack is if you want to get a bonus. the easiest to do is a pair. but what if you have no opportunity of a pair? what if your closest chance of getting a bonus is 2 terits away? it means you have to kill 6 troops. that's horribly hard and it may take you 4-5 rounds of deploying that 1 army on the same terit until you have enough troops to go for the bonus, and even then 2 bad rolls will totally destroy you. so basically because there aren't enough troops to deploy in the start a player has very big chances of never getting to take a bonus or even a card. and if the game is flat rate a guy with lucky rolls may be a clear leader after 3 turns.
combine this shitty luck with a guy that starts with a pair (quite possible) and you have a totally unbalanced start.

my suggestion is adding the normal bonus for terit count. those +3 armies will mean a lot and allow for smooth unfrustrating starts and at the same time they won't unbalance anything because in 2p games you start with 17 terits. that means 5 troops plus high card. that's 6 and you need to kill 3 opponent terits to lower his starting bonus from 6 to 5.

the cards seem pretty shuffled and i haven't spotted an adjacent pair (except for the 2 kings in lower right, but i'm not sure they touch).
and speaking of touching some connections are confusing: the 2 kings mentioned above, or the 7of spades and 6 of clubs


OK - so solutions...

Replace minimum 3 (no per terit bonus though)
Tweak a couple of cards to ensure they're more visibly not touching.

I'm considering adding in 12 neutral territories to bring down the number of cards - and also eliminate the possiblity of getting:-
Royal Flush
Straight Flush
Four of a kind. (Except for 4 2's - but you'd be very lucky to get that)

To do this I would place neutral 3's on the following cards.

A Clubs
K Spades
Q Hearts
J Diamonds
10 Clubs
9 Spades
8 Hearts
7 Diamonds
6 Clubs
5 Spades
4 Hearts
3 Diamonds

What do you think to that idea?

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Re: Poker Map (Page 1 & 9) [I]

Postby DiM on Fri May 09, 2008 9:06 am

making those cards neutral is good.

but i didn't get the minimum 3 thing.

you mean each player will get 3 armies regardless of how many terits they have? if that's the case then i like it. :mrgreen:
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Re: Poker Map (Page 1 & 9) [I]

Postby yeti_c on Fri May 09, 2008 9:52 am

DiM wrote:making those cards neutral is good.


Cool I'll do that too...

DiM wrote:but i didn't get the minimum 3 thing.

you mean each player will get 3 armies regardless of how many terits they have? if that's the case then i like it. :mrgreen:


Yeah - they get 3 but no more regardless of how many territories they have...

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Re: Poker Map (Page 1 & 9) [I]

Postby DiM on Fri May 09, 2008 10:14 am

cool, so in theory everything seems fine, but here comes the trickiest part (that could really use a testing facility)

identifying potentially unbalanced locations (like holding a royal flush with one border)

and because of the HUGE amount of combinations doing this by just looking at the map seems impossible to me.

for example i can spot a pretty nice bonus group in the middle of the map where you have a potential straight (3-7) linked. another linked straight is in the lower part of the map 8-Q, and there could be others.


also you should change the flush description. it's not "5 cards of any suit" it's "5 cards of same suit".

change the 3 of a kind description from "3 of any cards" to "3 cards of same value"
change the 4 of a kind description from "all 4 of the same card" to "4 cards of same value"
change the 1 pair description from "2 of any card" to "2 cards of same value"
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Re: Poker Map (Page 1 & 9) [I]

Postby WidowMakers on Fri May 09, 2008 4:45 pm

I will make sure i fix that stuff in the legend. Good catch DiM.

What is the name of the map going to be?
    Grab Poker
    Conquer Poker
    Poker (/*-+)Club [symbols are the 4 suits]

I am working on making the graphics in After effects. It will allow me to manipulate the perspective of the board and move the cards while keeping the army circles in the center and do it all in 3D real time. This way we should be able to manipulate the image rather quickly and make quick gameplay changes.

I will post an image as soon as I can. Probably next week. I need to get the store up to date with all of these new QUENCHED maps.

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Re: Poker Map (Page 1 & 9) [I]

Postby Kaplowitz on Fri May 09, 2008 4:47 pm

WidowMakers wrote:I will make sure i fix that stuff in the legend. Good catch DiM.

What is the name of the map going to be?
    Grab Poker
    Conquer Poker
    Poker (/*-+)Club [symbols are the 4 suits]

I am working on making the graphics in After effects. It will allow me to manipulate the perspective of the board and move the cards while keeping the army circles in the center and do it all in 3D real time. This way we should be able to manipulate the image rather quickly and make quick gameplay changes.

I will post an image as soon as I can. Probably next week. I need to get the store up to date with all of these new QUENCHED maps.

WM


I have no clue what that means, but it sounds awesome.


ok, i know what it means, but its still sounds awesome.
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Re: Poker Map (Page 1 & 9) [I]

Postby bryguy on Sun May 11, 2008 8:51 am

WidowMakers wrote:I will make sure i fix that stuff in the legend. Good catch DiM.

What is the name of the map going to be?
    Grab Poker
    Conquer Poker
    Poker (/*-+)Club [symbols are the 4 suits]

I am working on making the graphics in After effects. It will allow me to manipulate the perspective of the board and move the cards while keeping the army circles in the center and do it all in 3D real time. This way we should be able to manipulate the image rather quickly and make quick gameplay changes.

I will post an image as soon as I can. Probably next week. I need to get the store up to date with all of these new QUENCHED maps.

WM

I like the name Poker Club, and instead of a star like Conquer Club has between conquer and club, a circle with all 4 symbols. Did i get it right?
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Re: Poker Map (Page 1 & 9) [I]

Postby cicero on Sun May 11, 2008 11:59 am

Poker Club as described by bryguy sounds cool
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Re: Poker Map (Page 1 & 9) [I]

Postby WidowMakers on Sun May 11, 2008 1:30 pm

bryguy wrote:I like the name Poker Club, and instead of a star like Conquer Club has between conquer and club, a circle with all 4 symbols. Did i get it right?
100% correct.

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Re: Poker Map (Page 1 & 9) [I]

Postby fireedud on Sun May 11, 2008 4:13 pm

cicero wrote:Poker Club as described by bryguy sounds cool


I concur.

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Re: Poker Map (Page 1 & 9) [I]

Postby gimil on Sun May 11, 2008 7:17 pm

fireedud wrote:
cicero wrote:Poker Club as described by bryguy sounds cool


I concur.

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Re: Poker Map (Page 1 & 9) [I]

Postby hulmey on Sun May 11, 2008 7:21 pm

How about Betfair Poker...I might be able to get you sponsorship?!?
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Re: Poker Map (Page 1 & 9) [I]

Postby yeti_c on Mon May 12, 2008 3:16 am

WidowMakers wrote:
bryguy wrote:I like the name Poker Club, and instead of a star like Conquer Club has between conquer and club, a circle with all 4 symbols. Did i get it right?
100% correct.

WM


This sounds good to me...

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Re: Poker Map (Page 1 & 9) [I]

Postby cairnswk on Mon May 12, 2008 2:29 pm

oaktown wrote:...
The color of the legend text against that background is absolutely hideous. Maybe it's my laptop monitor, but I can't even focus on it - I will assume the legend is a work in progress. :shock:


Yes...i have to agree....that red on light green is shocking to my eyes, and makes the red almost unreadable.
Please do change it ! :)
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Re: Poker Map (Page 1 & 9) [I]

Postby yeti_c on Tue May 13, 2008 4:15 am

cairnswk wrote:
oaktown wrote:...
The color of the legend text against that background is absolutely hideous. Maybe it's my laptop monitor, but I can't even focus on it - I will assume the legend is a work in progress. :shock:


Yes...i have to agree....that red on light green is shocking to my eyes, and makes the red almost unreadable.
Please do change it ! :)


Don't worry - GFX for legend will be changed - we are looking at layout and gameplay at the moment.

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