Magyarország [Quenched]

[koontz1973]

By golly isaiah, that just made my day.

[AndyDufresne]

I'll take a look at this map closer in a few days probably. But the first (and random) thought that came to my mind that going realistic for mountains and forests may not be the way to go for this map. Stylized icons may just look better in the long run.

Best,


--Andy

[koontz1973]

OK, lets look at the gameplay side of things.

Bonuses-how do the numbers stack up?
The bonus that multiplies is the figure for the large part of Hungary and the bonus for the Shattered country. This means that the bonus does not really do anything if you hold the largest part of Hungary but the smallest part gives you an extra 3. This sounds about right to me as I did not want the bonus to mean that the game is over when one player grabs it.

Legend-Hows my spelling this time around.
The legend seems pretty clear to me and not overly complicated. Jatekos did point out that having Hungary 3 times in the Saved land bonus part seems a tad redundant and I agree with him. But did not want player to miss understand that part is Hungary. Is it OK to take it out? and if so, how to replace it in that part of the legend?

Impassables-Take any out or even add some more.
Quite happy to do either but they are pretty correct now for the region, may of exaggerated the height of the mountains a tad but so what.

[isaiah40]

But the first (and random) thought that came to my mind that going realistic for mountains and forests may not be the way to go for this map. Stylized icons may just look better in the long run.

Best,


--Andy

The trees seem to be okay, but those mountains seem to be floating above the map.

[koontz1973]

Sorry Andy, missed your post, can you point me towards anything you might like to see.

As for he floating mountain problem, I always seem to have this (since the first map that is), any ideas on how to fix it anyone?

But here is a test copy to see how you lot like it.

Click image to enlarge.

[AndyDufresne]

Sorry Andy, missed your post, can you point me towards anything you might like to see.

As for he floating mountain problem, I always seem to have this (since the first map that is), any ideas on how to fix it anyone?

But here is a test copy to see how you lot like it.

I am not sure I have anything to point you towards, I'll snoop around.

As for the floating mountain, no idea how to alleviate such a thing, other than icons sometimes suffer from that less.


--Andy

[koontz1973]

Going with the new version/texture on the map itself.

floating mountains gone. I hope.
A few other clean ups along the way.
Legend text alignment.

Click image to enlarge.

To do list:
Country names in legend need to go to the same colour as country.

[Jatekos]

I like the names of the 3 zones of Hungary much better now.

Country names in legend need to go to the same colour as country.

-Will you also add the texture to the coloured zones of the legend? I think that their colour would better match with the main map then.

- Now that you changed the background colour of the text boxes of the legend, the white solder and cannon shapes became more apparent and they look a bit odd. I see the dark ornaments in the background as well these white shapes. The dark ornamental shapes go well with the tone and names while the white shapes make these boxes too crowded and the white colour does not seem to fit there either.

I think you could try to play with the placement of these shapes or may even remove them from the legend, or try to add them somewhere on the main map. Changing their colour and their placement may also help. At least, the soldier on the left-hand side of the Shattered land bonus box and all 3 white shapes of the box that contain the impassables should be removed in my opinion.

- One more thing: The bands of the Hungarian flag are too straight. How about adding a waving flag effect?

[Jatekos]

- Also, would it be possible to update the shape of Lake Balaton to be more relalistic? It has a unique and emblematic shape that many people (foreigners also) can quickly recognize, and the shape of the lake on the map is not really like that.
http://maps.google.hu/maps?hl=hu&client ... CD0Q8gEwAA

[koontz1973]

I like the names of the 3 zones of Hungary much better now.

-Will you also add the texture to the coloured zones of the legend? I think that their colour would better match with the main map then.

Yes, added already for next update.

- Now that you changed the background colour of the text boxes of the legend, the white solder and cannon shapes became more apparent and they look a bit odd. I see the dark ornaments in the background as well these white shapes. The dark ornamental shapes go well with the tone and names while the white shapes make these boxes too crowded and the white colour does not seem to fit there either.

Legend boxes are back to original shading. I wanted to try the dark but in the end did not like it.

I think you could try to play with the placement of these shapes or may even remove them from the legend, or try to add them somewhere on the main map. Changing their colour and their placement may also help. At least, the soldier on the left-hand side of the Shattered land bonus box and all 3 white shapes of the box that contain the impassables should be removed in my opinion.

The shapes have stayed in (for now). They are less noticeable in the lighter box. The map is very clean so putting them onto the map will clutter it.

- One more thing: The bands of the Hungarian flag are too straight. How about adding a waving flag effect?

Not sure about this. I will have a play with the flag to see how it looks.

- Also, would it be possible to update the shape of Lake Balaton to be more relalistic? It has a unique and emblematic shape that many people (foreigners also) can quickly recognize, and the shape of the lake on the map is not really like that.
http://maps.google.hu/maps?hl=hu&client ... CD0Q8gEwAA

It is pretty damn close but will chop of the knobbly bits. If you go back to the earlier drafts, it was more in keeping with the lake, but it did not sit well on the map. Again, will have a play with it. Will post an update later today or tomorrow.

Anything on the bonus numbers? To high/low?

[Flapcake]

Koontz, I know your concentrate on gameplay for now, but I have a suggestion for the "floating mountains" issue, and its only from my personal expirence how I solve the "floating" thingy, I think why it get to look so "floating" is the sharp line at the fod of the mountain, if you try to erease that and then kind of merge/smurge the territory color and the mountain together, the effect of beeing integraeted gets more real.

Only a suggestion. ohterwise, what can i say, whers the beta stamp ?

[koontz1973]

Tweaked mountains.
Legend textures and colours now match countries.
Lighter legend and lighter men in legend.
Flag tweaked. Played with suggestion and did not look right for the map. Having it straight across the top as a banner distorts the map enough.
Balaton corrected. Any more changes and it wil not be seen in the small. Stays as it.
Tweaked the Budapest icon so it is not confused with Nograd (attack).
Bridges changed and made lighter. Did not see well in the CB tests.

Click image to enlarge.

[koontz1973]

Just a quick update to the flag.
Moved Romania up a couple of pixels in the legend so it fits onto the card backing.
Version 9.5

Click image to enlarge.

[Oneyed]

your story is still bullshit. the sample how much Hungarians look at the right to independence of another nations.

Oneyed

[koontz1973]

your story is still bullshit. the sample how much Hungarians look at the right to independence of another nations.

Oneyed

Oneyed, what are you talking about?

[Jatekos]

Very good progress, I like the recent updates.
I do not have any suggestions regarding the gameplay for now. I'll have to play a couple of games on the map first.

On the other hand, I still have suggestions about the graphics, if you don't mind.
-The yellow texts seem to be too emphatic and a bit distractive to me. Yellow is good for the title, as it has to stand out, but the rest of the texts should be less highlighted. I am wondering if you could use text colours that are less distractive, but still visible.
I think it would worth a try, if a dark/light shade of the actual background would better look than the current yellow texts. E.g. light green text on the green lane, brownish text below the flag, black/grey text on the white lane of the flag. I think it would match more with the colours of the map and would look better.
- The colour of the flag could be a bit lighter, as the middle lane is rather greyish than white at the moment.
- I would also suggest to put the "3" of the "3 million Hungarian" to the next row (i.e. "3 million"), so that the number of armies on Vas are further from the number in the legend.

[koontz1973]

White in the flag will look greyish as this is the highlights. Made it lighter for you, but do not want to go for more as it looks bright against the other muted colours.
Text to white as it is a neutral colour but will look at it some more. Having the text different colours is a big no no so it has to be one colour. Toned it down and moved the three as well.
Keep the suggestions coming as I would like to play this as well.
V9.6

Click image to enlarge.

[Oneyed]

your story is still bullshit. the sample how much Hungarians look at the right to independence of another nations.

Oneyed

Oneyed, what are you talking about?

"the annexed lands are given to the victors" - Czechoslovakia, Croats/Serbs or Romania were victors? tell to people right, the victors (Great Britain, France, Russia) just gived independence to nations which were annexed to Kingdom of Hungary.

"displacing more than 3 milion Hungarian nationals" - you mean Slovaks, Serbs, Croats, Slovenes, Romanians as Hungarian nationals?

Oneyed

[koontz1973]

your story is still bullshit. the sample how much Hungarians look at the right to independence of another nations.

Oneyed

Oneyed, what are you talking about?

"the annexed lands are given to the victors" - Czechoslovakia, Croats/Serbs or Romania were victors? tell to people right, the victors (Great Britain, France, Russia) just gived independence to nations which were annexed to Kingdom of Hungary.

"displacing more than 3 milion Hungarian nationals" - you mean Slovaks, Serbs, Croats, Slovenes, Romanians as Hungarian nationals?

Oneyed

Hungarian nationals, these where people that where Hungarian and lived in the regions outside of Hungary proper.

The annexed lands where doled out by the victors as set within the treaty. The treaty was negotiated by the USA, England, France, Italy and Japan. The treaty ratified the borders that had been taken by force (Romania and Serbs, Croats, Czechoslovak legions) and in some cases, negotiated before the treaty.

[nolefan5311]

Just a quick suggestion to lower the Romania bonus by 1 and the Austria bonus by 1. The rest of the non-CSL bonuses look good. The spreadsheet indicates that the Italy bonus should be .33, lol, but being that it's an autodeploy, I think that solves the problem. I understand that for the purposes of the map it needs to be its own distinct bonus but I will get with ian to see what he thinks.

A very important question that I need answered before I can run any more of the bonus spreadsheets...do the CSL bonuses completely override the other bonuses? I.E., if I hold Tiszantul + Austria, the bonus yields a total of +9 (+2 & +7). Or is it +7 total? Perhaps I am being dense here, but putting something in the legend like, "Hold any Saved Land Bonus and (list the bonuses) and (added at the bottom) yields the above bonus in addition to the Saved Land bonus", or something along those lines. Once I get this answer I can run the spreadsheet.

One issue I see myself running across is that you might want to think about separating the CSL bonuses. I don't have the exact numbers yet because of the above issue, but for instance, holding Dunantul + Serbs & Croats requires me to hold 18 regions for a bonus of either +12 or +17. Whereas I can hold Tiszantul + Czechslovakia (12 regions) for either a +10 or +12. What are your thoughts on this?

[koontz1973]

The consolidated land bonuses over ride the Saved land and Shattered land bonuses. It is worked out by shattered land(?) + largest saved land(5).
So with each part of Hungary
Austria(2) + Dunántúl(5) = 7. This gives no extra troops.
Austria(2) + Duna-Tisza köze(4) = 7. One extra troop.
Austria(2) +Tiszántúl(2) = 7. Three extra troops.

I wanted to keep the CLB the same for each part of Hungary. So as above, the bonus does not change depending on what part of Hungary you hold (players then need to work out which part of the three you have). It doubles when you hold any two parts of Hungary, so using above, it becomes 14 and the numbers equal out. But it will not triple.

Austria(2) + Dunántúl(5) + Duna-Tisza köze(4) = 14. Three extra troops.
Austria(2) + Dunántúl(5) + Tiszántúl(2) = 14. Five extra troops.
Austria(2) + Duna-Tisza köze(4) + Tiszántúl(2) = 14. Six extra troops.

Running spread sheets will not really work for this one as the CLB stays the same for any part of Hungary. Should make it interesting battle ground of the Tiszántúl.

Hope that helps.



Will lower Romania by one.

[koontz1973]

Lowered Romania by one.
Changed wording in legend for the consolidated bonuses. Hopefully this is now clear.
Moved the Budapest AD to another part so it is not confused with the saved land bonuses.

Click image to enlarge.

[nolefan5311]

Nice changes Koontz. Austria also needs to be lowered by one as well as the spreadsheet suggests it should be at 1.25 since you only have to defend two regions to hold it.

I think the only issue I have left is that holding Tiszantul is significantly easier than holding Dunantul or Duna-Tisza koze so perhaps you might want to think about changing the consolidated land bonus for holding it. Perhaps you might want to use three separate boxes in the legend so that it can be changed.

And just to clarify...regardless of whether or not I hold Tiszantul or Dunantul, if I hold the Poland bonus (5 total regions with Tiszuntal, and 9 total regions for Dunantul), it's a +6. I agree that it makes an interesting battle ground of Tiszantul, but as it is, Tiszantul probably needs a region added, or to be differentiated from the other two Saved Land bonuses somehow.

[Dukasaur]

Very nice!

The white lettering on these bright coloured backgrounds is hard to see. Could you try a version with black lettering?

[koontz1973]

nolefan, lowering Austria to a 1 does not sit right with me as you then have 3 bonus regions at +1, but all at different sizes. Italy (1 territ), Poland (2 territs) and Austria (3 territs). There seems to me a need to have a slight difference between the bonuses for these three.

If that does not work for you, then how about a bridge between Moson and Pozony? I could then move the bridge between Bars-Gyor to Bars-Veszprem. This then might justify the increase to a +2 for Austria slightly more. (Will put bridge in if OK)

Added Debrecen to Tiszuntal to justify the bonus structure as you said this would work. But I lowered the neutral in that region to a 2. It is only there to stop the drops and with the increase by one, a lowering of that neutral seems OK.

Having the legend make the difference between the 3 parts of Hungary for the Consolidated bonus might cause confusion with players.

Dukasaur, not all wording but one of each region. This any better? Will bung the glows back in if yes.

Click image to enlarge.