Das Schloß [QUENCHED #2]

[Incandenza]

Lemme just point out one thing: between fitz and andrew, they have almost 16,000 games played. That's more games than any of us have had hot dinners. These guys know what they're talking about.

[AAFitz]

Its still very unbalanced.

AA is still the only point of the game.

and im not at 90 games, im at 130

the first 90 were just awesome.

the last 40 were insanely boring. Im not trying to be negative here. On the contrary, Im being positive. The map was simply awesome before the update.

that extra bonus for the chuttes ruined it. If you need, I can go into at least 7-10 games with other players saying the same thing.

The map needs more balance, so AA is not the only focal point. Otherwise, you might as well just delete the entire right hand side of the board.

Those bonuses need more power. The chuttes give you 8 auto deploy, and 8 to drop. Thats a 16 bonus, with the other ones being at 7, or 4 or 5

Resetting the AA to 5 will help, but it will be the same.

I will simply hit the AA, demolish the other player...move out of AA...and then the other player has to not only hit my stack....but even hit the AA too

It will help, but it wont balance the map.

3/4 of the games played on it are 1v1. A good 1v1 map makes for a good map.

It is slow, but now its still slow, but now its also boring, because AA is the only point of the entire game.

Do not let this opportunity slip by to use the potential this map provides. Its clear you dont believe me, because you entirely ignored my suggestions after a couple of slow games.

I myself am not even basing it on my games, but the other players that have complained about the same thing....who all have played it more than you.

Again, the first one was near perfect...it just needed a little more balance. It just needs to give a chance for a drop in the upper right, and the lower right...the bonuses are so low right now as to be pointless.

but on turn one, a 16 extra bonus just makes the map unbalanced, or at the very least a dice shootout.

It gives player one an advantage to a ridiculous degree.

If I have to, Ill find all the comments Ive had in the recent games to back it up...or... just assume I simply not making it up, and not guessing...and am basing it on 130 games, on nearly all the same settings.

Im sorry if im being too passionate here, but its only because the map was just so awesome when it was re-released. Being able to win from more than one spot and more than one area, just made it awesome, and required some serious guessing as to what the other player will do. Now, there is no question what the other player will do. They will aim every single army at AA, and wipe out the chutte area, because it is virtually the only possible way to win. Player one then gets an extra 16 armies to work with, so its essentially a game on doodle, when it could be a game of stratego instead.

AAFitz, i told you before that i repsect your opinion, however 1v1 is not the only type of game played on this map.

It is not that i don't beleive you because i do, but don't you think it would be nice that I as mapmaker get an opportunity to experience the gameplay myself. Afterall this is Beta and this is where things are tested.
And then there is the opinion of others to be considered. Afterall you also are not the only player in CC.

Just mentioned AAFitz's post. I 100% agree with him. Why was that free deploy in the chutes was added???

So to all, bare with me please...I did make a judgement call that appears to be wrong in inserting the C1-y2 extra bonus. So it will be removed.

Here is the new Version 43....if this is more acceptable, please let me know.

its your map and im not the only player. I just happened to fall in love with it, and learn quite a bit by emersing myself in it for three days straight. Also, 1v1 is not the only typed played, but it is played 75% on it and will probably continue at that rate...though I single handededly skewed those results.

Im ironically in a speed game in it now... Ill take a look at it...and remember... I absolutely loved what you did with it originally... its the best map ive ever played...it was only the change that I pointed out unbalanced it.

And again, my respect for you as a map maker is nearly unlimited...I do not understand any part of it, whatsoever. I just happened to play the map 100 times or so in a row and learned some valuable lessons.

[AAFitz]

Here is the new Version 43....if this is more acceptable, please let me know.

Ok now that the chutte bonus is gone, you can now win from either the castle or the AA area, and that throws in a lot of strategic choices to be made.

What would be nice, is if the other corners could become players too....but not too much in the right corner, because of its proximity to the AA which still is very powerful.

Just a slight increase in the bonus or perhaps a decrease in the neutrals in these areas would be nice.

The upper left has the greatest potential if you can figure a way to make it like the castle area...so that if one drops up there, they can compete with the castle.

This would mean that in a fog game, you have at least 3 options for a drop, with equal chances of winning from them.

If this is done, it will become the most unique game play that I know of on CC. I certainly have not played enough to know exactly how it would even play out with that kind of change.

Just removing the chutte bonus evens it quite a bit though. I saw wins from AA area, castle area and even the occasional win from upper right, though that was really a fluke...

[cairnswk]

Just to throw in my two cents again...
I've now had games on the map that were completely in the old style, and in the revamp style with the map change before and after the change of the extra armies on the two territories after the parachutes, and team games that lasted through all three styles and the subsequent chaos and strategy alterations of the changeovers (going from one map to the other completely changed everything due to random replacements everywhere and is slowly giving us the win in our remaining active game when we were losing badly before). I don't have AAFitz's level of experience with single player, but I've only lost one game on the map in any style so far, and that was to him in a freestyle assassin game that was very close all around (and was also affected by the 2nd changeover).

I agree, mostly, with AAFitz's review of the unbalancing that the post-parachute armies did to to 2-3 player games and how absurdly powerful the AA gun is there. I also agree with Cairns' initial assessment that games with more than 3 people badly need the extra general income available to everyone otherwise they'll take forever to finish. If the AA gun is made so it resets to neutral or loses armies every turn, that makes it more of a free-for-all again with many players, but it's still imbalanced in 1-vs-1 (though far more so with manual settings, it's not nearly over on turn 2 with auto).

Right now, in multiplayer, you want a big stack on the AA to protect your post-parachute bonuses but you don't dare use it much if everything else is balanced and many people have large stacks there, otherwise you lose it and your bonuses.

Reducing or eliminating the ability to stack on the AA makes everyone need to defend all their post-parachutes all the more, and the ones who don't get hammered, which then gives the advantage to anyone who just sat there and defended through the initial fight for the AA unless the winner was massively lucky and hit them hard enough too.

I do like the idea of giving other areas bigger bonuses, the lower right (which used to be so awesome with 3 AA guns) is especially pointless to take that huge undefendable ring for a mere +3. Also to take into consideration is that the smallness of the bonuses in general makes whether you have cards (especially escalating) so important, no-card games made even that +1 in the FS area an eventual massive advantage by using it to take other areas in my current remaining team game, nobody expected that to be a wedge into everywhere else, though the mixup of the changeover and mistakes by other teams helped a lot there too.

A no-card, non-manual 6+ multiplayer game that starts off with an impossible to hold resetting AA gun and less income from parachutes is going to be a massively long game or stalemate unless there's someone making a mistake to unbalance it in someone else's favour and get things going again.

And yes there's got to be a lot of people who make those mistakes because it's such a complicated map, and therefore the stalemates will be between the people who understand importance and unimportance of various areas of the map and settings.

So I guess I'm with those who are saying to increase the lesser bonuses so it's more equal in all quadrants, not necessarily get rid of the extra armies from the southwest or change the AA (though both will balance/unbalance things in other ways depending on settings and the people involved).

Ok now that the chutte bonus is gone, you can now win from either the castle or the AA area, and that throws in a lot of strategic choices to be made.

What would be nice, is if the other corners could become players too....but not too much in the right corner, because of its proximity to the AA which still is very powerful.

Just a slight increase in the bonus or perhaps a decrease in the neutrals in these areas would be nice.

The upper left has the greatest potential if you can figure a way to make it like the castle area...so that if one drops up there, they can compete with the castle.

This would mean that in a fog game, you have at least 3 options for a drop, with equal chances of winning from them.

If this is done, it will become the most unique game play that I know of on CC. I certainly have not played enough to know exactly how it would even play out with that kind of change.

Just removing the chutte bonus evens it quite a bit though. I saw wins from AA area, castle area and even the occasional win from upper right, though that was really a fluke...

From the suggestions provided, I have done a couple of things that i hope rebalance the map, and give enough troops so as to not make the games too lengthy.

1. At the Flughafen, the walls between Wache Aus 1 and Wache Aus 2 and Offiziere and Hangar have been removed in order to free up that whole area to make it more accessible like Das Schloß. Following this, the bonus structure has been made the same as Das Schloß. The Flughafen text now reads Landeplatz are excluded from Bonus areas.
EDIT: I have discovered that around V38 the one-way arrows that were in that version was accidentally deleted, and this has not yet since been picked up.
So the wall between the Offiziere and Wache Aus 1/2 has been replaced and the one-way arrow re-installed, as have the other two arrows. This will be adjusted in the xml.

2. Das Dorf bonus has been changed to 5 for +3 and 8 for +4, this is inline with the topside bonuses i beleive.

3. Die Straßen bonuses have been changed
Ds +3 for 5
Fs +1 for 3
Ss +1 for 3
and the Cable cars UC and DC have been given +1 for 3

EDIT: I also found the reason Ss and UC/DC didn't get bonuses (back in the discussion pages), these have been removed again.

All this now changes the game considerably, but i hope it would be in line with what you all are asking for given that AA now has a reset neutral of 5 each turn.

Version 44.

[natty dread]

Just one thing... why do you have two different texts for killer neutrals, "resets per turn" and "resets per round"? I'm pretty sure you can only have one kinds of killer neutrals? The thing is, this could well confuse new players into thinking that there's some difference in them...

[cairnswk]

Just one thing... why do you have two different texts for killer neutrals, "resets per turn" and "resets per round"? I'm pretty sure you can only have one kinds of killer neutrals? The thing is, this could well confuse new players into thinking that there's some difference in them...

Good point natty...i'll check it out....

EDIT: OK, i was under the impression that the previous neutral resets could occur, however that seems no to be the case, so these have now been stated as simply killer neutrals.

[phantomzero]

Cairns. Keep up the good work. I've also played a ton of 1-1 games and a few multi player games. These new changed you are announcing sound like they will help out the balance.

How does one know when these changes will take effect? Should I move my stack off of AA yet?

[skillfusniper33]

Is there any way in the XML code to make the decay increase as the rounds go by, or possibly by the number of troops on the board?

Right now the map seems alright, but all my games on it are with more than 6 people.

[cairnswk]

...
How does one know when these changes will take effect? Should I move my stack off of AA yet?

lackattack announced the last changes, so i guess that might be the case again...and also, we have3 to gain the confidence of several people before these changes go ahead.

Is there any way in the XML code to make the decay increase as the rounds go by, or possibly by the number of troops on the board?

Right now the map seems alright, but all my games on it are with more than 6 people.

decay increase...no, unfortunately.

[Tiller]

Without seeing it in action, it's hard to say what will happen with these changes, that was a lot of bonus overhaul there (I expected a few more +1s or something, and mostly just a rebalancing between the northeast and northwest, which did happen but how that'll interact with the rest of the changes is hard to do the math for).

Will the neutral count of Offiziere be increased now since it's now not a dead end but a vital access point to an objective? I suspect the southeast is now too powerful (next to the AA and more armies unto itself), but maybe not, AAFitz would have a better idea of balance there, it's an interesting idea regardless though. Are C1-Y2 still getting both an autodeploy and +1 each, or was the southwest weakened to emphasize the new bonuses? I'm not sure giving the road and cablecar bonuses in themselves when they're made to break the bigger bonuses is good or bad. Overall I like the conciseness of the new legend, it's easier to understand. There's just a lot of changes all at once.

Edit: One thing I noticed is that you don't have the 3rd arrow type in the legend under the eagle's wing anymore on the map anywhere, that'll probably have to be edited.

[bobdakota]

I am in a 8 person Escalating spoils game with the fog on. We have been playing almost a month. We just made it to round 15.

I have found that the area troop bonus are not worth the risk. They are too hard to hold and +3 troops doesn't do anything when you get over 100 guys for spoils. I can have 50 guys on both Wache Tomas and Kantrol 1 and still get slaughtered. Even if a guy moves 45 guys to UC3, he might as well attack Kantrol 1 because his guys are stuck there and can't move back. It costs a lot of men to try to get the +19. Not worth wasting 50 guys to try to gain 19, and only gaining 7.

With the fog on it is very hard to elimiante anyone. There is no way to tell where anyone is and no way to keep troops in any spot for more than 1 turn. The only way I see this game ending is if someone is able to hold the spots for a turn (not likely with 8 people) Or if a player can get lucky and take out another and get their spoils. If a player could take out another than it could really snowball. If I could take out a player with 4 spoils and I have 2, than there is a posibility that I could get 250 troops. It might go from anyones game to over in 1 turn.

Some games I like with the fog, but this one is near impossible. I can see this game still going for 2 months (unless guys quit playing to get booted)

I do have a plan right now, but since the game is still going on, I am not going to share it here.

[GloverParkDude]

flat rate multi, this has to be one of the gayest maps ever

[natty dread]

flat rate multi, this has to be one of the gayest maps ever

You mean this map has sexual feelings to other maps of the same gender?

[Seamus Corrigan]

I am in a flat rate multi, and it really is not working well. There seems to be really no chance of any player elimination....

[cairnswk]

Without seeing it in action, it's hard to say what will happen with these changes, that was a lot of bonus overhaul there (I expected a few more +1s or something, and mostly just a rebalancing between the northeast and northwest, which did happen but how that'll interact with the rest of the changes is hard to do the math for).

Will the neutral count of Offiziere be increased now since it's now not a dead end but a vital access point to an objective? I suspect the southeast is now too powerful (next to the AA and more armies unto itself), but maybe not, AAFitz would have a better idea of balance there, it's an interesting idea regardless though. Are C1-Y2 still getting both an autodeploy and +1 each, or was the southwest weakened to emphasize the new bonuses? I'm not sure giving the road and cablecar bonuses in themselves when they're made to break the bigger bonuses is good or bad. Overall I like the conciseness of the new legend, it's easier to understand. There's just a lot of changes all at once.

Edit: One thing I noticed is that you don't have the 3rd arrow type in the legend under the eagle's wing anymore on the map anywhere, that'll probably have to be edited.

1. C1-Y2 are not getting +1 each bonus, that is what AAFitz has been advidcating to have removed and I have done that.
2. Road and cablecar bonuses have been removed
3. I have re-inserted the one-way arrows from Offiziere to Wache Aus 1/2, so that won't affect the neutral position there, it can remain as 2. Therefore the 3rd arrow type is back on the map.
Thanks for your comments

....

I have found that the area troop bonus are not worth the risk. They are too hard to hold and +3 troops doesn't do anything when you get over 100 guys for spoils. I can have 50 guys on both Wache Tomas and Kantrol 1 and still get slaughtered. Even if a guy moves 45 guys to UC3, he might as well attack Kantrol 1 because his guys are stuck there and can't move back. It costs a lot of men to try to get the +19. Not worth wasting 50 guys to try to gain 19, and only gaining 7.

With the fog on it is very hard to elimiante anyone. There is no way to tell where anyone is and no way to keep troops in any spot for more than 1 turn. The only way I see this game ending is if someone is able to hold the spots for a turn (not likely with 8 people) Or if a player can get lucky and take out another and get their spoils. If a player could take out another than it could really snowball. If I could take out a player with 4 spoils and I have 2, than there is a posibility that I could get 250 troops. It might go from anyones game to over in 1 turn.

Some games I like with the fog, but this one is near impossible. I can see this game still going for 2 months (unless guys quit playing to get booted)

I do have a plan right now, but since the game is still going on, I am not going to share it here.

Thanks for your input on that.

flat rate multi, this has to be one of the gayest maps ever

You mean this map has sexual feelings to other maps of the same gender?

Mmmm, that's an interesting classification.

[cairnswk]

I am in a flat rate multi, and it really is not working well. There seems to be really no chance of any player elimination....

The Hubscrauber (helicopters) are there to assist with elimination, when yoiu build enough armies to use them

[cairnswk]

Current Proposed V44.

[AAFitz]

the resetting of the AA will be a nice addition, but no doubt a few thousand armies of many players are going to be lost the second it gets implemented so I almost think a warning should be in place.

getting rid of the bonus in AA area, AND resetting AA has now made castle the only focus on the board. It will be the only relevant part of the map, because it wont be worth hitting aa anymore because youll be hitting 5 to remove an 8 bonus tops, so now AA at least on 1v1 is almost irrelevant

all armies go to castle, and whoever gets the best dice wins. on manual, typically whoever goes first will win with a better advantage of hitting the big stack....

still a person can deploy down bottom and go up there, but without the AA as a valid spot, im not sure its worth it.

Now that the +1 bonus is gone im not sure the AA has to reset at all really, though resetting it, may very well have changed the unbalancing of the area but not enough. I personally dont think its necessary with the extra bonus gone.

And the only thing I still must add is that now that the castle is the key to victory, it is unbalanced again, unless you dont reset AA....and/or, just add one area of bonus up top even the two objective points as a bonus. And maybe the one objective point in the lower right.

That way, there would be a bonus for going for the objective, it would allow a bonus from almost anywhere
the key is the math.

the bounus in the castle is 7 typically ...perhaps a bonus of 10 for both of the upper objective spots and a bonus of 5 for the lower right one would be a nice addition because it would add armies to the board, would open up the objectives, and would mean it would be hard to know where someone was going to aim for.

Or a bonus for the and k1-k10 at say +5 would balance it with the castle almost perfectly
for the castle you need to hit 24 neutrals plus 4 of your opponents men. For the ks you need to hit 18 armies + 4 of your opponents armies. And hold 8 spots total for the bonus, which is very balanced with the castle.

You could even still add a bonus for the two objective points in the upper right too, of say 5 for holding both, which would nearly mirror the extra bonus in the castle for taking the rest of the territories.

It would mean that now you can drop in the castle, AA, or upper right and have a fighting chance. It would also mean that now you have no idea where your opponent is going to drop, which means the game is just awesome....which it really was anyways before the chutte bonus anyways...if just biased towards the castle.

The math is the only tricky part, but instinctively, I know it must be very close.

[00iCon]

Its rather easy to hold the map when you have most of it. But that makes sense to me.

A single specific suggestion. Sdt. Hab should attack Ss2.

EDIT: I'm actually in a flat rate multi doubles and pwning, ahem, enjoying this map.

[natty dread]

Its rather easy to hold the map when you have most of it.

Well DUHH

[AAFitz]

Oh, and by the way, awesome job sending out the invites to chat about the map cairns. just a great idea. Again, Im nearly sure no ones played it more than me at almost 200 games now.....but i play very specific settings so its important to double check my ideas, especially the math on them....

[MarshalNey]

...Now that the +1 bonus is gone im not sure the AA has to reset at all really, though resetting it, may very well have changed the unbalancing of the area but not enough. I personally dont think its necessary with the extra bonus gone.

And the only thing I still must add is that now that the castle is the key to victory, it is unbalanced again, unless you dont reset AA....and/or, just add one area of bonus up top even the two objective points as a bonus. And maybe the one objective point in the lower right.

That way, there would be a bonus for going for the objective, it would allow a bonus from almost anywhere
the key is the math.

the bounus in the castle is 7 typically ...perhaps a bonus of 10 for both of the upper objective spots and a bonus of 5 for the lower right one would be a nice addition because it would add armies to the board, would open up the objectives, and would mean it would be hard to know where someone was going to aim for.

Or a bonus for the and k1-k10 at say +5 would balance it with the castle almost perfectly
for the castle you need to hit 24 neutrals plus 4 of your opponents men. For the ks you need to hit 18 armies + 4 of your opponents armies. And hold 8 spots total for the bonus, which is very balanced with the castle.

You could even still add a bonus for the two objective points in the upper right too, of say 5 for holding both, which would nearly mirror the extra bonus in the castle for taking the rest of the territories...

I've only played 2 games, both 8 player, 1 no spoils the other flat rate (the games are still going.... and going)

I think the proposed changes in v44 address some of the biggest gameplay issues.

I agree with AAFitz that Das Schloss and the AA used to be too important. I don't think that's really the case now- the Flughafen area is at least close to having a matching value, and the 1-way attacks make it more defensible.

I think that the AA should be kept a killer neutral. Thinking outside of a 1v1 context, the AA is still a very significant weapon that can wipe out multiple player's bonuses simultaneously. Perhaps neutral 5 is a bit high, I might say killer neutral 3 or 4, but that's just my preference for lower neutrals period I think.

AAFitz does have a point about providing other areas of the map with value- right now, there's still only 2 real bonus areas worth taking, and with 8 players I have to say it becomes a dreary game of push-shove, with no real winners and no possibility of taking the objective or wiping each other out.

However, I rarely think that making a victory objective a worthy bonus in its own right is a good idea. Then, players can win by victory objective without really even pursuing it- they were just pursuing a good bonus.

Sooo, a good compromise might be to assign a small bonus to each victory objective, or to assign a decent bonus to just one part- like Kommander Wilhelm (I imagine a hostage like that would actually be pretty handy). Say, +3 or +4 for holding Wilhelm, and suddenly that lower-right corner of the map would get more play.

[safariguy5]

I second Fitz's commendation for taking the time to come into the game chat and ask for feedback cairns. I'm by no means mapmaker or even a map commenter, but I feel I must add my suggestions. I'm in a 8 person no spoils game, and it's basically come down to giant stacking. With 3 different people holding objectives with 100+ army stacks, no one person can expect to take the victory achievement. I think that one of the things that might help the player elimination process may be to reduce the number of neutrals for the helicopter pads. I think they're at 14 or 15 neutral and as a result, even the people who have access to them aren't. Something that can help is making it easier to access the heli's and the ability of the heli's to bombard more than the first parachute area. Ultimately, I really think people need to be able to eliminate other people more easily. If the heli's can bombard all parts of the parachute approach, then we won't have people stacking troops on the last spot before waiting to bust through the bunker.

So in conclusion, I would suggest some sort of modification on the neutral armies guarding the helis, and increasing the bombarding range of the helis to extend to the entire parachute approach.

[00iCon]

Its rather easy to hold the map when you have most of it.

Well DUHH

I'm saying one would think the parachutes have an OP bonus, but holding the airport, castle and AA+surrounds is enough to fend them off.

[Beckytheblondie]

Forgive me for not reading the entirety of this discussion as it's incredibly lengthy. I'm sure that you all have made some great additions. I'd just like to note that in the Championship Series tournament of Das Schloß, which is a 1v1 sequential chained tourney, this player who starts has won 28 of 36 times (78%) and once experienced players play experienced players the numbers are even more skewed. First player to play has won 11 of 12 matches in the second round (92%).