Archipelago [Quenched]

[ZeakCytho]

As for the poll, could you quickly make a version of the title that I suggested before, just to see how it looked? I would vote for Version 4, but I dislike how you filled in the spaces in the letters completely full of color.

I happen to agree with you about not liking version 4, particularly the filled in letters. But that title is winning by an absolute landslide right now, so I don't think your idea (version 5 + islands around it) is really worth making for now. After the poll, assuming version 4 wins, as it looks very likely to, I'd like to make a few new title versions all based on a similar design to that, but mess around with island positions. Maybe one of these can be the version 5 title with islands around it. Then, after this second title poll, we'll have a final title design .

As for colors/textures: Mjigna and I agree that we would like to keep this map with a very simple color scheme and a limited amount of textures, i.e. as it is now. But since multiple people are calling for new colors, after the title issue is settled, we can make a version with new colors and textures and have a poll and see what people think. But before we can do that, people need to suggest other color schemes. You guys want something pastel-like? Neon ( )?

I'm going to make a list below of discussion topics and current progress. If you guys could comment on these, it'd be great.

Discussion Topics:
Graphics:
1) Title - first poll currently running
2) Color/textures - Need input for future poll options

Gameplay:
1) Continent bonuses - tentatively outlined, need input
2) Attack lines - current paths seemed to be fine by everyone before idea approval, but it sounds like some people want them changed now? Thoughts?

Anything I'm missing in either of those categories?

Thanks everyone for past and future comments!

[Mr. Squirrel]

I happen to agree with you about not liking version 4, particularly the filled in letters. But that title is winning by an absolute landslide right now, so I don't think your idea (version 5 + islands around it) is really worth making for now. After the poll, assuming version 4 wins, as it looks very likely to, I'd like to make a few new title versions all based on a similar design to that, but mess around with island positions. Maybe one of these can be the version 5 title with islands around it. Then, after this second title poll, we'll have a final title design .

Sounds good. This map is coming along nicely. Keep up the good work.

I don't think that this map needs much else graphically, the only thing I still don't like is the map key at the bottom. It doesn't fit the same colorful vibrance that the rest of your map has. Once you are finished with the title, why don't you expirement with that some more.

[oaktown]

Hey wca... nice to see you in the main. Let's see what you've got going on here; as this is my first serious look at this I'm just going to go stream of consciousness on you and tell you everything I see, regardless of how I feel about it.

There is a dead end from Nyard to Fenur to Dektel. Since the other three territories in that chain are going to get hammered by everybody else, this might be alright. But I think I would either add a route somewhere or drop the bonus to +3, as the dead end makes the territory very obtainable.

I tend to like seeing three territory regions only a +1, unless all three territories are in harm's way, but that's not the case here. The peninsula is the clear advantageous start on this map.

Your mountains actually look like mountains, which is a good thing. But nothing else on the map looks like it was meant to achieve a photo-realistic look, which makes the mountains look out of place.

A bit odd that the peninsula isn't a part of the island's bonus - geographically this would make more sense if it was somehow cut off from the rest of the island, like if the mountain range extended to the ocean on one side of the other and cut off one border.

And the larger concern is that this map doesn't tell me a story. As a new player, this is little more than some islands that may or may not be based on something real - this particular layout of territories could be anywhere, from outer space to the holes of a meerkat colony. You need to give people a reason to want to play this.

[jiminski]

Click image to enlarge.

i am right in assuming this is winning? I voted for it as option 4 but it seems to be 2 options: 4) Continent shapes used for letters?
excuse me if i am being dull!

[jiminski]

Click image to enlarge.

i am right in assuming this is winning? I voted for it as option 4 but it seems to be 2 options: 4) Continent shapes used for letters?
excuse me if i am being dull!

I changed my vote but wonder if anyone else made this error?

Version 4 : Option 4, this seems to be a bit of an unintelligent error but i looked at it a few times and still made it... if people have looked quickly others could have made the same error?

[ZeakCytho]

There is a dead end from Nyard to Fenur to Dektel. Since the other three territories in that chain are going to get hammered by everybody else, this might be alright. But I think I would either add a route somewhere or drop the bonus to +3, as the dead end makes the territory very obtainable. We could add another island to the chain and make it connect to Bishan, or reduce the bonus to plus 3. There was discussion earlier about changing the total number of territories so that the first player doesn't have a major advantage, but no one really commented on that. If we do add more territories, one (or more) of them could be in Isris.

I tend to like seeing three territory regions only a +1, unless all three territories are in harm's way, but that's not the case here. The peninsula is the clear advantageous start on this map. Okay, we'll make Kalwar a +1

Your mountains actually look like mountains, which is a good thing. But nothing else on the map looks like it was meant to achieve a photo-realistic look, which makes the mountains look out of place. Alright, we'll play with the mountains for the next version.

A bit odd that the peninsula isn't a part of the island's bonus - geographically this would make more sense if it was somehow cut off from the rest of the island, like if the mountain range extended to the ocean on one side of the other and cut off one border. We had thought that Vienlorre would be too large to hold without splitting off part of it, but you make a good point. Maybe we'll throw in a river or channel or straight or whatever to make them separate islands, but maintain the current attack lines.

And the larger concern is that this map doesn't tell me a story. As a new player, this is little more than some islands that may or may not be based on something real - this particular layout of territories could be anywhere, from outer space to the holes of a meerkat colony. You need to give people a reason to want to play this. I see your point, but I disagree that maps need to tell stories. Sure, it's cool if they do, but I play maps for the strategy. I think going out of the way to contrive a "plot" for this map could actually have a negative impact on it. Plus, there's been a fair amount of support for the current simplicity of the map. If a bunch of other people want to see a story, then we can discuss adding it.

Click image to enlarge.

i am right in assuming this is winning? I voted for it as option 4 but it seems to be 2 options: 4) Continent shapes used for letters?
excuse me if i am being dull!

I changed my vote but wonder if anyone else made this error?

Version 4 : Option 4, this seems to be a bit of an unintelligent error but i looked at it a few times and still made it... if people have looked quickly others could have made the same error?

The image you posted is "Option 4: continents shapes used for letters"
Version 4 is the title that appeared in version 4 - straight black text, colored islands surrounding it.

I apologize for the confusion; keep in mind that if anyone did make this mistake, you can change your vote before the poll ends.

[ZeakCytho]

Okay, big update! New poll for titles, mountains, and the legend box, as well as version 6!

Poll Options
Please vote once in each category

Titles
A)

B)


Mountains
A)

B)

C)


Legend Box/Island
A)

B)

C)

D)

E)

F)

G)


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Version 6 (Large)

Click image to enlarge.

What you need to know
Number of territories: 39
Number of continents: 6
Gameplay Info: Classic gameplay

Updates in This Version:
1) Three new territories added (Drage, Eten, and Inton) to raise the total count to 39, reducing the advantage that the first player to go gets in 2 and 3 player games.
2) Kalwar cleaved from Vienlorre to make its separate bonus more sensible.
3) A new territory added to Kalwar to make its +2 bonus more reasonable.
4) The title from v4, which won the recent poll, returned.
5) Troop circles on Detkel and Fenur moved

To do:
1) change the shape of the Legend Box/Island to cut out the dead space in it now that the word Peninsula is gone
2) Change the shape of the new strait between Kalwar and Vienlorre to make it look less rigid/boxy
3) Fix the shape of Leraru to make the northeast side less stair-like.

Points of Discussion:
1) The bonuses will certainly need a look at now that new territories have been added. Thoughts?
2) Do the total territory numbers look good? I believe we have eliminated the advantage that the first player gets by moving from 36 to 39 territories.
3) Do the attack lines look okay?

[Mr. Squirrel]

To tell you the truth, I don't like any of the legend boxes/islands you have made, no offense. I do not like the glowyness around the the letters. I'm not sure what would make it better though. Why don't you try putting each continent name in a separate island (instead of having all of them on one big one) and then coloring that island the same color as it is one the map. Then the text inside could just be plain black. Just a thought.

Points of Discussion:
1) The bonuses will certainly need a look at now that new territories have been added. Thoughts?
2) Do the total territory numbers look good? I believe we have eliminated the advantage that the first player gets by moving from 36 to 39 territories.
3) Do the attack lines look okay?

My responses:
1) I suggest Isris-6, Bishan-4, Biceror-5 or 6, Thres-4, Vienlorre-6, Kalwar-2
2) Sounds alright to me. I hardly ever play games with less than 6 people so it doesn't really affect me.
3) Looks fine to me.

[Mjinga]

Good thought! That would be much more clear than the way I have it now. I'll work up something after the poll runs out and set it up versus the winner.

Out of curiosity, why 6 for Isris? Wouldn't that be a bit much for six territs?

[Mr. Squirrel]

Good thought! That would be much more clear than the way I have it now. I'll work up something after the poll runs out and set it up versus the winner.

Out of curiosity, why 6 for Isris? Wouldn't that be a bit much for six territs?

I'm glad you like my idea on the legend. Also, I thought six would be fine for Isris because it already has five borders to defend, plus it is surrounded by four different countries. A different player will be trying to take each of these (most likely) which makes it highly likely that someone will be able to break his bonus, especially when you take into account that the Kalwar island could be taken in one turn. It would be incredibly hard to hold Isris against four other players, with at least one holding an entire continent. If you disagree, you can just make it five bonus. It isn't a big deal.

[ZeakCytho]

Isris has four borders, not five, but I'm inclined to agree with your bonus of +6. 6 other territories, in 4 separate continents, are able to attack Isris, making it near-impossible to hold early on in the game.

On second thought, it's pretty hard to hold any of the continents except Kalwar early on. Maybe we should erase some attack lines to make it easier to grab bonuses? Or just make the bonuses across the board higher, as Mr. Squirrel suggested? Other people have thoughts on this?

Assuming we keep the attack lines as they are, which is a big assumption, here's what I think bonuses should be:
Isris - 6 (5?)
Bishan - 3 (4?)
Biceror - 5 (6?)
Thres - 4
Vienlorre - 6
Kalwar - 2

Edit: Mjinga says to tell you all that she's working on the legend box-islands-thing Mr. Squirrel suggested above right now and it will be done later tonight, if everything goes well.

[Mjinga]

Was something like that what you had in mind?

It has the old bonuses and the coastlines from the old island-that-was and the bonuses might be out of order and what have you, but is that the basic idea?

[oaktown]

IAssuming we keep the attack lines as they are, which is a big assumption, here's what I think bonuses should be:
Isris - 6 (5?)
Bishan - 3 (4?)
Biceror - 5 (6?)
Thres - 4
Vienlorre - 6
Kalwar - 2

Have you run this through one of the bonus calculators to see what it comes up with? The formula I use is in this excel file...
http://h1.ripway.com/rparodi/BonusCalc_Oaktown.xls

Still seems like you have one clearly superior starting location in Kalwar - whoever gets a good initial drop there will be the first to nab a bonus, and it will be an easy one to hold. Kalwar will be controlled in one or two rounds, while everything else will take four or five. Thres is the second most holdable region with only three borders, a buffer from Kalwar, yet it requires controlling seven territories. In Classic terms, you have one South America, one North America, and five Europes.

[Mr. Squirrel]

Isris has four borders, not five, but I'm inclined to agree with your bonus of +6. 6 other territories, in 4 separate continents, are able to attack Isris, making it near-impossible to hold early on in the game.

On second thought, it's pretty hard to hold any of the continents except Kalwar early on. Maybe we should erase some attack lines to make it easier to grab bonuses? Or just make the bonuses across the board higher, as Mr. Squirrel suggested? Other people have thoughts on this?

Assuming we keep the attack lines as they are, which is a big assumption, here's what I think bonuses should be:
Isris - 6 (5?)
Bishan - 3 (4?)
Biceror - 5 (6?)
Thres - 4
Vienlorre - 6
Kalwar - 2

Edit: Mjinga says to tell you all that she's working on the legend box-islands-thing Mr. Squirrel suggested above right now and it will be done later tonight, if everything goes well.

Whoops! I accidently counted Nyard as two borders instead of one, but, my opinion on the bonus of Isris still stands. That being said, I do think that you need to erase a few lines off the map. There are too many continents with too many borders to hold. Why don't you consider getting rid of the Synkor-Nyard and the Niagis-Islor Coast borders. This will help to lower the bonus in those two areas and to make them a bit easier to hold.

Was something like that what you had in mind?

It has the old bonuses and the coastlines from the old island-that-was and the bonuses might be out of order and what have you, but is that the basic idea?

Not exactly, but I think that that will look good too if you sharpen it up and make it clear that that is the legend. Originally, I was thinking of 6 flat, horizontal islands in a stack-like formation, but I somewhat like this setup better. It fits in with the general look of the map, not so orderly. If you have the time, why don't you make up a sample of both (along with the winner of the poll), where we can see which one truly looks best.

[ZeakCytho]

Have you run this through one of the bonus calculators to see what it comes up with? The formula I use is in this excel file...
http://h1.ripway.com/rparodi/BonusCalc_Oaktown.xls

I actually ran it through that for v1, but since then many borders have changed, new territories added, etc. Once we decide on a solution to the fact that many continents are hard to hold (see below), then I'll run the map through the calculator again to get bonuses.

Still seems like you have one clearly superior starting location in Kalwar - whoever gets a good initial drop there will be the first to nab a bonus, and it will be an easy one to hold. Kalwar will be controlled in one or two rounds, while everything else will take four or five. Thres is the second most holdable region with only three borders, a buffer from Kalwar, yet it requires controlling seven territories. In Classic terms, you have one South America, one North America, and five Europes.

That's not good! See below for some of my ideas on fixing it.

[img]<a%20class="linkification-ext"%20href="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/Rhiannonaecastilla/CC/Maps/Archipelago/ArchMiniIslands1.png"%20title="Linkification:%20http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/Rhiannonaecastilla/CC/Maps/Archipelago/ArchMiniIslands1.png">http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/Rhiannonaecastilla/CC/Maps/Archipelago/ArchMiniIslands1.png</a>[/img]

Was something like that what you had in mind?

It has the old bonuses and the coastlines from the old island-that-was and the bonuses might be out of order and what have you, but is that the basic idea?

Not exactly, but I think that that will look good too if you sharpen it up and make it clear that that is the legend. Originally, I was thinking of 6 flat, horizontal islands in a stack-like formation, but I somewhat like this setup better. It fits in with the general look of the map, not so orderly. If you have the time, why don't you make up a sample of both (along with the winner of the poll), where we can see which one truly looks best.

I like what Mjinga did, but here are some things that we'll do to change it around before putting it up as a poll:
-Move the islands around so the bonus corresponds to the area of the map it's in (the Isris bonus island will be in the top left area of the box-islands grouping, Vienlorre in the top left, etc.).
-Add a new island with a neutral background (grey or tan) that says "Legend" or "Bonuses" on it, and put that at the top as a title to the legend-islands grouping area
-Anything else?

Whoops! I accidently counted Nyard as two borders instead of one, but, my opinion on the bonus of Isris still stands. That being said, I do think that you need to erase a few lines off the map. There are too many continents with too many borders to hold. Why don't you consider getting rid of the Synkor-Nyard and the Niagis-Islor Coast borders. This will help to lower the bonus in those two areas and to make them a bit easier to hold.

As I see it, there are a few things we can do to fix the current problem. I've arranged them in order from my favorite to my least favorite.

Split Continents
Pros: Will most likely fix the solution by making more continents like Classic's Africa, etc. I'd split Biceror, personally, into two easier-to-hold regions (north and south, which would get new names, of course).
Cons: Hmm...I can't really see any? It's more time consuming than some options, but this should be fairly simple.

Redraw Attack Lines
Pros: Very easy to change
Cons: Hard to decide which lines to change to have good gameplay and maintain some sense of realism, ie having nearby territories able to attack each other while distant ones can't. Right now we've maximized realism with the attack lines, but this will obviously have to change since the gameplay doesn't work right now.

Add Continents
Pros: Same as Split continents
Cons: Very time consuming, and will add new territories, which will require rebalancing to make sure the first player doesn't get a major advantage. The next logical number of territories to go to is 42, but that would only give us a 3 continent addition, unless we also split a current continent...

Remove Continents
Pros: Err...fixes the problem, maybe?
Cons: A lot. Leaves dead space, makes the map much smaller, doesn't make any of the untouched continents any easier to hold, etc.

So, there are my thoughts on the matter. I've probably missed a few, but those four things are what came to mind. I'm pro-splitting continents, but before we go about doing this, I'd like to see what other people have to say. If we can fix the problem just by changing attack lines, I think Mjinga would be much happier

[bryguy]

Hey wca... nice to see you in the main.

ok, u realize the maker of this map isnt wca_climbing? its zeaksomething or at least i think so


oh and by the way zeaksomething, i HAD to vote for the multi color legend, its so cool looking


and also, it seems to me like u cant make a lot of choices.....

[ZeakCytho]

and also, it seems to me like u cant make a lot of choices.....

Umm...what?

Also, someone voted in one category twice
There are 39 votes total, so there should be 13 votes in each category. There are 13 votes for the title, 12 for the mountains, and 14 for the legend. Could whomever voted twice for the legends please change one of their legend votes to a mountain vote? Thanks.

Also, any thoughts on the options for fixing continent size problems I posted on the last page?

[bryguy]

and also, it seems to me like u cant make a lot of choices.....

Umm...what?

sorry, just to me it seems like u cant make alot of choices, since u have 3 things that need voted on at 1 time


course, after i posted that, i realized that i cant make alot of choices either....

[jiminski]

a also liked the multi-coloured legend... it is odd, I instantly liked it but double checked as i was not sure i should like it.

As to the mountains surely A) is the only choice.. the rest do not feel like they belong.

[ZeakCytho]

and also, it seems to me like u cant make a lot of choices.....

Umm...what?

sorry, just to me it seems like u cant make alot of choices, since u have 3 things that need voted on at 1 time


course, after i posted that, i realized that i cant make alot of choices either....

Oh, I see. Mjinga didn't have many ideas for titles or mountains anyway, so we managed to fix 12 choices in, the max. It seems that the new title is very well liked. We'll probably need more polls in the future on mountains, and certainly on the legend box.

As to the mountains surely A) is the only choice.. the rest do not feel like they belong.

I agree, but someone (Oaktown?) had said that the mountains looked too realistic compared to the rest of the map. I don't think choices B and C look realistic at all, but they're also not as well done as choice A. The poll ends later tonight, so we'll decide what to do with mountains then, and put up a poll on the legend boxes.

Gameplay thoughts, anyone?

[pamoa]

Sorry do not get time to read all, but it will be better transform last legend in minimap with just the bonus number!

[ZeakCytho]

Sorry do not get time to read all, but it will be better transform last legend in minimap with just the bonus number!

Do you mean in this version of the legend?


I suppose the colors on the island would be indicator enough as to which continent the bonus belongs. This would allow us to shrink the islands and group them together more tightly, freeing up room for an island above them that says "Legend" or "Bonuses." I love this idea!

*cough* Gameplay comments? *cough*

[t-o-m]

i think that gameplay is fair - but kelwar would be a bit like australia in classic - as in 4 terits, but you've 2 outgoing attacking routes, so maybe like S.A in classic, an easy grab if you've good starting locations - it wouldnt be fair to give it a bonus of 1 nor 3 so 2is ok i think. just starting locations in kelwar could sway the game a little bit

[Mr. Squirrel]

Sorry do not get time to read all, but it will be better transform last legend in minimap with just the bonus number!

Do you mean in this version of the legend?


I suppose the colors on the island would be indicator enough as to which continent the bonus belongs. This would allow us to shrink the islands and group them together more tightly, freeing up room for an island above them that says "Legend" or "Bonuses." I love this idea!

*cough* Gameplay comments? *cough*

And the best part about this idea, is that I came up with it!
Just kidding! But, I disagree with the statement that we could do without the continent names. Since this isn't a minimap, just a group of islands, some people might still get confused if we don't add the names.

As for gameplay, the only thing I can think of, and it has already been brought up, is the fact that there are too many borders on most of your continents, making it very hard to hold some of them, but like I said, this has already been brought up and is in discussion. Of your different options listed earlier to fix this, I would choose a combination of a few: erase a few attack lines, add a few more islands, and split at least one continent in half. This should create a couple of easier to capture continents, and protect against the person dropped in Kalwar to win every match.

i think that gameplay is fair - but kelwar would be a bit like australia in classic - as in 4 terits, but you've 2 outgoing attacking routes, so maybe like S.A in classic, an easy grab if you've good starting locations - it wouldnt be fair to give it a bonus of 1 nor 3 so 2is ok i think. just starting locations in kelwar could sway the game a little bit

This situation happens in every map on CC.There are always some people who get extremely lucky drops and have an unfair advantage. There is no way to protect against it completely. I think that Kelwar is fine the way it is. It is the other continents that we need to work on.

[ZeakCytho]

Okay, here's what I came up with doing a quick sketch of new territories and continents based on v6 in MS Paint. Red x's represent removed attack lines, green lines are added attack lines. I added three new territories and split Biceror into two continents, each getting its own black circle.

Click image to enlarge.

Attack line removed:
Islor Coast <-> Niagis
Niagis <-> Iori Archipelago
Nyard <-> Synkor

Attack lines added:
Odesse <-> New territory 1
New territory 1 <-> Kyson
Niagis <-> Orold
Assad <-> New territory 2
New territory 2 <-> Iori Archipelago
Iori Archipelago <-> New territory 3
Not shown (I forgot to draw a few):
New territory 3 <-> Surubi
New territory 3 <-> Niagis

Since Biceror is cleaved, two new continents of five territories each are formed. The northern one is very hard to hold, since it has 5 territories and 5 borders, but the southern one should be easier, as it has 5 territories and 3 borders. Bishan stays at whatever bonus it is now because it still has the same number of defending territories. Adding 3 territories makes a total of 42, which is a nice number.

Thoughts on this?