Portland [Quenched]

[lostatlimbo]

I think early versions had reference to the Rose Garden arena...any logos for the Blazers and/or Timbers (Rose Garden/PGE Park)? Not a biggee, but two more landmarks in town.

I finally caved in and dropped the Nike logo (a favorite since early on) on the last edit - not sure if adding more logos will be welcomed by the community. Other cities (NYC, Chicago, etc) with much larger, more notable teams didn't make reference to their sports teams, so while I'm a sports fan, I think those could distract from some of the other elements (parks, beer, bikes, etc) that I've chosen to highlight as prominent features of Portland.

I will play around with at least adding the Blazers into the header/side area somehow.

[lostatlimbo]

I think early versions had reference to the Rose Garden arena...any logos for the Blazers and/or Timbers (Rose Garden/PGE Park)? Not a biggee, but two more landmarks in town.

How about using the Blazers logo for the "o" in Portland. (Not really sure if this is legal or not)

Click image to enlarge.

[isaiah40]

How about using the Blazers logo for the "o" in Portland. (Not really sure if this is legal or not)

No sorry NBA copyright. I'd go back to the "O" in Portland.

[TaCktiX]

A few minor concerns:
- It's ReseRvoir.
- Is the rose/microbrew bonus one or the other, or can you hold both? I'm inclined toward the former based on what I read on the map, but it's not fully clear.
- Changing it back to a normal O would be best.
- Is the Fareless Zone a decay or a raw -1 penalty? Text supports the latter, but it can be confusing. And does it start neutral? Having someone drop Fareless would cripple their early game.

[lostatlimbo]

- Is the rose/microbrew bonus one or the other, or can you hold both? I'm inclined toward the former based on what I read on the map, but it's not fully clear.

Currently, you can hold both for +10 total. Does the xml allow for "can only hold 1 of 2 bonuses" scenario? I would be open to exploring that if so, because +10 is pretty hefty, even if they are spread out on the map.

- Is the Fareless Zone a decay or a raw -1 penalty? Text supports the latter, but it can be confusing. And does it start neutral? Having someone drop Fareless would cripple their early game.

Fareless is a raw -1 penalty from your total troop deployment. It starts 3 neutral, as stated in the first post.

I'll address the typo and revert the "O" in the next update, but would like to get the gameplay approved before making any more minor map changes.

[TaCktiX]

That's not how it works. Clarity of the map is part of the gameplay stamp, and since some of my concerns are certainly clarity, you need to get them all satisfied before we pass it onward.

[lostatlimbo]

That's not how it works. Clarity of the map is part of the gameplay stamp, and since some of my concerns are certainly clarity, you need to get them all satisfied before we pass it onward.

I'm not going to post a new version every time someone spots a ******* typo!

I've already been through Gameplay once. I thought this was supposed to be a quick check on the updates and then back to Graphics???

I've answered your questions (which were already clearly stated in the first post under THE BASICS:, if you had bothered to read it). Do you have additional questions that HAVE NOT BEEN ADDRESSED?

Enough with the power trips! If there is an issue, I want to address it. I've already devoted a sh!tload of my free time to this, so I'm not going to make an update after every comment. I want everyone who needs to approve this to review the gameplay AS LISTED IN THE FIRST POST and make suggestions/adjustments as necessary. THEN, I will make the appropriate graphic tweaks and hopefully get this thing out of FOUNDRY HELL.

[natty dread]

Lostatlimbo... no one wants to keep your map from being moved forward. Regardless of the history of the map, it is currently in gameplay, and gameplay concerns need to be addressed before the map can move on.

I know it has been a long, hard road for this map. I know it seems frustrating at times, but don't give up.

The concerns Tacktix brought up are legitimate ones and I think you should address them. None of them require huge amounts of work to address. My advice is, don't pay so much mind to which forum you are on, just keep working on the map, and eventually you'll find yourself in the Final Forge...

Good luck with your map!

[Riskismy]

I certainly feel your frustration loastatlimbo, but I have to agree with tacktix and natty on a practical level. That is, some of tacktix' comments do involve gameplay, and as such I guess they should be on the map. And natty is right that the forums don't really matter at all, they're just a more or less abstract measurement of how far the map has progressed, and are certainly very elastic.

I really like how you worded the bonus for brews and roses. Made me smile

Hope you have the determination to finish this, looks very good to me.

[lostatlimbo]

Allow me to rephrase my concerns:

I just want to be sure the last changes are okay before making more and that everyone agrees on additional changes before implementing them. Is that really too much to ask?

1. Several people previously made gameplay suggestions on the map before it was moved back here. I have since made changes to the Gameplay, but have not received any feedback on those changes.

2. Tacktix has brought up separate issues. Before I address those, I would like someone to provide some feedback on the previous changes. In short, I would like to complete one task before starting another - even if the second is relatively minor.

3. It is confusing with so many people providing direction. If Ian or DJ return and tell me the last update isn't going to work, any changes I make again to gameplay might invalidate changes I'm making to address Tacktix's (or other) new concerns. Why should I rewrite the legend for clarity if the nature of the bonus structure still might change? Its redundant and inefficient. If Ian/DJ/RedBaron or whoever actually makes the final decision says "the gameplay changes you recently made are OK", then I will have no problem clarifying the legend and submitting another update to satisfy the new issues.

4. Additionally, I posed a question regarding one of Tacktix's concerns and have yet to receive a response from either Tacktix or anyone else. The answer to this question will effect how I update the legend for clarity. If I go change the legend now and then tomorrow Tacktix comes back and says "no, you can't have an either/or bonus", then I have to go change the legend again. Why can't he respond to my question first, before demanding I implement his/her changes?

- Is the rose/microbrew bonus one or the other, or can you hold both? I'm inclined toward the former based on what I read on the map, but it's not fully clear.

Currently, you can hold both for +10 total. Does the xml allow for "can only hold 1 of 2 bonuses" scenario? I would be open to exploring that if so, because +10 is pretty hefty, even if they are spread out on the map.

This is where I stand at the moment. Someone with authority needs to comment on the last update and the people making additional comments need to respond to my follow up questions. Then I make another update. I don't think these are unreasonable requests.

[TaCktiX]

You can technically code a case where having both bonuses overrides one or the other, awarding only 5 as the overridden bonus. In general I feel that the +5 bonus is a bit high, even for 4 very-spread-apart territories. Other maps give you +3 or +4, but I wanted to address the fact that it wasn't clear WHAT exactly I was getting. As for your previous changes, I am intentionally oblivious. I come in with a fresh pair of eyes and point out what doesn't make sense, which I have. I'm not sure where ian or MarshalNey (the other Gameplay CA's) are, so I really can't help you there.

[iancanton]

i'm happy with the changes to the gameplay. i think the +5 for beer OR roses is misleading though, unless u want it to count only once (which is certainly possible for the current xml). i prefer it if the +5 is put in twice if u want the possibility of one player holding both bonuses. either option is fine from the gameplay point of view. players just need to know how it will work in practice.

ian.

[lostatlimbo]

26th Draft
Clarified legend
Changed Fareless Zone to a -1 troop decay on that territory when held
You can now only receive a bonus for 4 roses OR 4 microbrews - not both

Click image to enlarge.

[natty dread]

The bridge to overlook... does it connect to both Nob hill & Pearl or only Nob hill?

[lostatlimbo]

Just Nob Hill. I can move it a little to be clearer.

[natty dread]

I think you should "fudge" the border of pearl a bit, so that the bridge doesn't touch the pearl territory... that way there would be no ambiguity.

[iancanton]

at last, the map qualifies fully for the gameplay stamp! the nob hill bridge can be edited as part of graphics.



ian.

[natty dread]

Congrats for stampage!

[ironsij0287]

Yeah the Nob Hill Bridge needs to be cleaned up to be a little more clear as to where it goes.

Also the passable area between St. Johns and University doesn't really match with anything else on the map. Perhaps doing a road bridge over the rail there to illustrate their connection would work.

What is that thing in the river next to OMSI? There appears to be nothing in the legend referencing it and I'm not sure what it's supposed to be.

[lostatlimbo]

at last, the map qualifies fully for the gameplay stamp! the nob hill bridge can be edited as part of graphics.



ian. :)

Woo-hoo!

Thanks all for your help

[lostatlimbo]

Congrats for stampage!

Re-stampage :)

[lostatlimbo]

Also the passable area between St. Johns and University doesn't really match with anything else on the map. Perhaps doing a road bridge over the rail there to illustrate their connection would work.

I tried that before and it looked funny to me, but I'll take another shot at it.

What is that thing in the river next to OMSI? There appears to be nothing in the legend referencing it and I'm not sure what it's supposed to be.

Its an old WWII submarine - a featured attraction at OMSI (Oregon Museum of Science & Industry). Its decoration. I don't feel it really needs a label anymore than the jet at the airport or the trees in forest park. I've had to sacrifice a lot of 'nods' to Portlandesque things (RIP Shoe Town), but I want to keep the sub. Its off territory, so I don't think it appears as if it would affect gameplay.

[ironsij0287]

What is that thing in the river next to OMSI? There appears to be nothing in the legend referencing it and I'm not sure what it's supposed to be.

Its an old WWII submarine - a featured attraction at OMSI (Oregon Museum of Science & Industry). Its decoration. I don't feel it really needs a label anymore than the jet at the airport or the trees in forest park. I've had to sacrifice a lot of 'nods' to Portlandesque things (RIP Shoe Town), but I want to keep the sub. Its off territory, so I don't think it appears as if it would affect gameplay.

OK. I just wasn't sure what it was supposed to be.

[lostatlimbo]

Oops - actually its a Vietnam sub, not WWII

[lostatlimbo]

27th Draft
Tweaked Nob Hill <> Overlook bridge for clarity
Replaced St Johns <> University land bridge with a road bridge for style

Click image to enlarge.

I tried messing with the sub some more, but nothing I do makes it look any more sub like than the original.