Fair play Troop allocation at start of game

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Assured armies on first turn of games

Postby detlef on Fri Jun 27, 2008 2:47 am

All players should be given the amount of troops they would have gotten had they gone first in the first round of the game :

Specifics:
    For instance, in a 1v1 game on Africa, each player is dropped 15 countries but only one player is assured of being able to take advantage of this. Given the number of ways it's been shown that going first is an advantage in 1v1, this will mitigate at least one of those issues.

This will improve the following aspects of the site:
    Well, obviously, it will make games more fair by eliminating one of the advantages the first player gets in a 1v1 game.

    As it stands, the deployment can set off a chain reaction. Player one gets, say 5 armies and can not only quite feasibly take 2 countries from player 2, but also fortify against an advance. Now player 2 needs to take 3 countries, starting with a smaller number of troops and likely having at least one well defended front in their way. This can create a pattern that will require some outstanding luck or a big mistake on the part of the first player to overcome.

    Keep in mind, even if this change was made, player 2 may still be fighting an uphill battle. They still need to take 3 countries to establish an early game equilibrium where both players are, say starting their turn with 14 and finishing with 15+.
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Re: Assured armies on first turn of games

Postby Skiman on Fri Jun 27, 2008 2:49 am

I think this a great idea - I'd vote for it
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Re: Assured armies on first turn of games

Postby Hrvat on Fri Jun 27, 2008 2:55 am

Like it.
Smaller the number of armies first player receives, more even the game.





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Re: Assured armies on first turn of games

Postby FabledIntegral on Fri Jun 27, 2008 3:08 am

I like it - except when someone starts with a bonus and you have the opportunity to break it, hate that. Although it's all the same, if you start with a bonus AND go first... oh well.
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Re: Assured armies on first turn of games

Postby yeti_c on Fri Jun 27, 2008 3:23 am

FabledIntegral wrote:I like it - except when someone starts with a bonus and you have the opportunity to break it, hate that. Although it's all the same, if you start with a bonus AND go first... oh well.


Perhaps it should only count towards reinforcements bonuses... rather than any other bonus?

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Re: Assured armies on first turn of games

Postby Incandenza on Fri Jun 27, 2008 3:44 am

yeti_c wrote:
FabledIntegral wrote:I like it - except when someone starts with a bonus and you have the opportunity to break it, hate that. Although it's all the same, if you start with a bonus AND go first... oh well.


Perhaps it should only count towards reinforcements bonuses... rather than any other bonus?

C.


That would be the only fair way to implement it.
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Re: Assured armies on first turn of games

Postby FabledIntegral on Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:00 am

I would PREFER a change be made that no bonuses account for the first turn as well. Still may be unfair if someone is dropped Aussie, but it's more fair if they don't benefit from it for the first turn. Especially since they can just fortify all the territories to Indo anyways if needed.
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Re: Assured armies on first turn of games

Postby killmanic on Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:30 am

i really like this idea to lessen the effect of going later in a seq game
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Re: Assured armies on first turn of games

Postby yeti_c on Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:10 am

Here's a question though - does this then give the advantage to the players playing later though?

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Re: Assured armies on first turn of games

Postby ctgottapee on Fri Jun 27, 2008 6:20 am

yeah i have been surprised that bonuses are given out in the first round.....

over on the defunct GS, each player in the first round only got 3 armies no matter what they owned or their territory count, so no player got an advantage in the first round. it also seemed to help even out any odd automated deployments as bonus laden players were targeted before they could accure them in the later rounds.
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Re: Assured armies on first turn of games

Postby detlef on Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:14 pm

yeti_c wrote:Here's a question though - does this then give the advantage to the players playing later though?

C.

Well, I thought about that but I don't think it would by nature. Certainly if the first guy got crappy rolls but then again, if he gets crappy rolls you're not likely to lose any countries and thus the point is moot.

Really, it's only 1 army once (maybe 2 on large maps like World 2).

None the less, if you coupled everyone getting the same basic armies (that is the spots /3) and nobody getting continent bonuses, I think you'd go a long way to making the start more fair.

Now, there is a negative to getting dropped a continent but not getting the bonus. Having a continent is double edged sword. You get bonus guys but you are more likely to get attacked. Doing it this way getting dropped a continent might actually be a bad thing because you get the bad without the good.
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Re: Assured armies on first turn of games

Postby Soloman on Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:31 pm

detlef wrote:All players should be given the amount of troops they would have gotten had they gone first in the first round of the game :

Specifics:
    For instance, in a 1v1 game on Africa, each player is dropped 15 countries but only one player is assured of being able to take advantage of this. Given the number of ways it's been shown that going first is an advantage in 1v1, this will mitigate at least one of those issues.

This will improve the following aspects of the site:
    Well, obviously, it will make games more fair by eliminating one of the advantages the first player gets in a 1v1 game.

    As it stands, the deployment can set off a chain reaction. Player one gets, say 5 armies and can not only quite feasibly take 2 countries from player 2, but also fortify against an advance. Now player 2 needs to take 3 countries, starting with a smaller number of troops and likely having at least one well defended front in their way. This can create a pattern that will require some outstanding luck or a big mistake on the part of the first player to overcome.

    Keep in mind, even if this change was made, player 2 may still be fighting an uphill battle. They still need to take 3 countries to establish an early game equilibrium where both players are, say starting their turn with 14 and finishing with 15+.
to be honest this is a crap Idea.the game we all know and love which originated as a sequential game never would have allowed for this your armies are based on territories owned if you have the good luck to start with a bonus great game for you I have seen games go either way with that even in 2 player games. When playing the board game we did random drop based on cards to keep all fair o a lot of games and sometime by luck of draw you started with a bonus and it made the game that much more challenging. Just like the dice there is a random factor involved with the drop that should not be perverted by this type of change.Just my Opinion ,I would rather lose by that randomness then win because everything was kept in a balanced order on what should have been a random drop...
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Re: Assured armies on first turn of games

Postby detlef on Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:18 pm

Soloman wrote:
detlef wrote:All players should be given the amount of troops they would have gotten had they gone first in the first round of the game :

Specifics:
    For instance, in a 1v1 game on Africa, each player is dropped 15 countries but only one player is assured of being able to take advantage of this. Given the number of ways it's been shown that going first is an advantage in 1v1, this will mitigate at least one of those issues.

This will improve the following aspects of the site:
    Well, obviously, it will make games more fair by eliminating one of the advantages the first player gets in a 1v1 game.

    As it stands, the deployment can set off a chain reaction. Player one gets, say 5 armies and can not only quite feasibly take 2 countries from player 2, but also fortify against an advance. Now player 2 needs to take 3 countries, starting with a smaller number of troops and likely having at least one well defended front in their way. This can create a pattern that will require some outstanding luck or a big mistake on the part of the first player to overcome.

    Keep in mind, even if this change was made, player 2 may still be fighting an uphill battle. They still need to take 3 countries to establish an early game equilibrium where both players are, say starting their turn with 14 and finishing with 15+.
to be honest this is a crap Idea.the game we all know and love which originated as a sequential game never would have allowed for this your armies are based on territories owned if you have the good luck to start with a bonus great game for you I have seen games go either way with that even in 2 player games. When playing the board game we did random drop based on cards to keep all fair o a lot of games and sometime by luck of draw you started with a bonus and it made the game that much more challenging. Just like the dice there is a random factor involved with the drop that should not be perverted by this type of change.Just my Opinion ,I would rather lose by that randomness then win because everything was kept in a balanced order on what should have been a random drop...

I mean this with all due respect. Based on your response, I don't think you understand the rule being suggested and I also think you need to embrace some of the elements used in the English language to prevent unreadable blocks of words.

The rule as it is being suggested, and as you have quoted has nothing to do with luck of the drop. There have been suggestions regarding not awarding bonuses but that is not part of the original idea which only pertains to the luck involved in going 1st. As it stands, there is far too much to be gained by simply going first.

I do most humbly suggest that you, 1) understand the issue at hand and 2) manage to produce readable text when you launch your post with, "this is a crap idea".
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Re: Assured armies on first turn of games

Postby FabledIntegral on Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:10 pm

Soloman, you're basically arguing that the original designers of the game had it perfect.

Fact is, there's a huge difference when you're playing with friends and when you're playing vs other random people. When you're playing with other random people, the atmosphere is a lot less friendly, despite what is said in chat. You want to win. Getting paired up against someone random and having that sort of drop is ridiculous. This game should NOT revolve around "make it that much more challenging for this person," and "because you were randomly generated to go first you get that much more of an advantage." All I've seen you argue is that whoever goes first *deserves* this advantage, simply because it's random.

That detracts from the integrity of the game, in my opinion. This is a strategy game. That's how it should be viewed. There are massive flaws in the original RISK board game - it is anything but perfect. Yeah, it still provided a fun game, but to simply think that a board game in itself was perfected by a few designers is absolute crap.
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Re: Assured armies on first turn of games

Postby Incandenza on Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:48 pm

As loathe as I am to admit it, I do think soloman stumbled across a small point in that this may not necessarily' be a good option for anything other than 1v1s and maybe 2v2s. Larger games make it A) way less likely for someone to get an unholy drop and B) easier for an unusually lucky drop to be counteracted if for no other reason than that there's more than one person (or two-man team) with a vested interest in dragging a player with a great drop back down to the pack.
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