Amount of starting territories in 1vs1

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Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby Ace Rimmer on Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:59 am

Concise description:
  • Change the XML of older maps to ensure fair drops

Specifics/Details:
  • Many drops start with players having territory count that is a multiple of 3, therefore potentially owning a larger bonus than the other team. As per oaktown's Gameplay suggestions in the foundry, located at viewtopic.php?f=466&t=81664#p1921330 (in the Balanced Gameplay/What to Avoid section) this is an unfair advantage
  • Even though a map has been through the foundry process, it may not be fair, especially if the requirements of the foundry change
  • As long as the original graphics are unchanged, there is no issue with the copyright given to the site as per the copyright agreement

How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:
  • Make maps fairer for all game types
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Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby #1_stunna on Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:00 am

I couldn't have said it better.
12:17:31 ‹Pixar› im gonna be fappin to that all night long
10:59:12 ‹rhp 1› holy hell... that did it.. I pissed myself
15:15:52 ‹Ace Rimmer› Sackett58, I think I may get some action this weekend
15:16:05 ‹Sackett58› Right hand or left Ace?
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Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby *Pixar* on Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:01 am

i could of lol j/k yes i agree u can lose from whoever goes 1st
Last edited by *Pixar* on Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby trapyoung on Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:04 am

Agreed (fast track this)
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Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby sonicsteve on Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:24 am

just makes sense
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Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby Pedronicus on Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:56 am

yes. I vote for this. Not because I'm TOFU, but because of another reason that i can't quite put my finger on right now.
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Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby trapyoung on Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:08 am

I might also add something like First Round bonuses based off territory count, not drop as well. Therefore if someone is dropped a bonus, the other team has an opportunity to respond. Just makes things fair and would likely lead to (1) less suiciding, (2) less cursing and (3) more competitive games
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Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby MichelSableheart on Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:12 am

I'm having trouble understanding how you envision this. Doesn't this require changing the number of territories, which means automatically changing the graphics?
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Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby AndyDufresne on Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:44 am

Hm, this suggestion may be better moved to the Foundry at some point, since they are the ones who would be looking into this.

However, I think there can be some discussion here, as to whether doing so would have any net negative impact on the way games are played on those maps.

It'd also be interesting to see how many maps 'suffer' from these sorts of issues. Anyone want to look up and find the info?


--Andy
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Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby FattyMcFat on Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:01 pm

MichelSableheart wrote:I'm having trouble understanding how you envision this. Doesn't this require changing the number of territories, which means automatically changing the graphics?


If each player starts with 15 territories before Round 1 initiated then each has a guaranteed drop of 5 armies on their first turn, regardless if their territory count falls below 15 before their first turn. I don't think Jake's suggestion was about changing the number of territories a certain map has at all.
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Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby Ace Rimmer on Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:08 pm

MichelSableheart wrote:I'm having trouble understanding how you envision this. Doesn't this require changing the number of territories, which means automatically changing the graphics?


Right, you can code in certain territories as starting points which affects the number of territories, or you can code certain territories to always start neutral (see First Nations of North America for this as an example). The same number of territories would be on the map, there would just be a few more neutrals to offset the unfair drops.
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Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby Ace Rimmer on Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:09 pm

trapyoung wrote:I might also add something like First Round bonuses based off territory count, not drop as well. Therefore if someone is dropped a bonus, the other team has an opportunity to respond. Just makes things fair and would likely lead to (1) less suiciding, (2) less cursing and (3) more competitive games


This is a harder issue to deal with, so I decided not to address it in my original post. That will take more work and discussion and not be as simple of a fix.
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Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby Ace Rimmer on Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:12 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:Hm, this suggestion may be better moved to the Foundry at some point, since they are the ones who would be looking into this.


Unfortunately, less people look at the foundry, and I wasn't able to get any traction there when I brought this up before. I'm hoping here there is more support and we can get this looked into.

AndyDufresne wrote:However, I think there can be some discussion here, as to whether doing so would have any net negative impact on the way games are played on those maps.

It'd also be interesting to see how many maps 'suffer' from these sorts of issues. Anyone want to look up and find the info?


--Andy


I tried to look up this info, but because of starting positions in XML, I couldn't do quick math based on the number of territories. I'm game to do this research if someone can show me a quick way to look through the XML and figure it out. I may even be game for the long way, but I'm certainly not excited to do it.
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Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby Calidrmr on Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:18 pm

seems like a good idea to me!
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Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby AndyDufresne on Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:23 pm

jakewilliams wrote:I tried to look up this info, but because of starting positions in XML, I couldn't do quick math based on the number of territories. I'm game to do this research if someone can show me a quick way to look through the XML and figure it out. I may even be game for the long way, but I'm certainly not excited to do it.


Have you looked into seeing if Chipv's Map Database can be of any assistance?

http://chipv.freehostia.com/


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Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby Ace Rimmer on Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:57 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:
jakewilliams wrote:I tried to look up this info, but because of starting positions in XML, I couldn't do quick math based on the number of territories. I'm game to do this research if someone can show me a quick way to look through the XML and figure it out. I may even be game for the long way, but I'm certainly not excited to do it.


Have you looked into seeing if Chipv's Map Database can be of any assistance?

http://chipv.freehostia.com/


--Andy


It doesn't have the right information in it. The new map information database will hopefully have it, if that ever gets done. I forget if it was you or MrBenn that was soliciting feedback.
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Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby Queen_Herpes on Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:00 pm

jakewilliams,
Could you please provide a single example to explain what it is you are talking about? I have a guess, actually two guesses, but I don't want to muddy the waters with the wrong guess.

Once you post the example, in detail, I will have a lot to say.
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Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby Ace Rimmer on Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:27 pm

Draknor: level 1. In 1v1 you each start with 12 terits. If you take a single terit from the next player, they start with 11 (while you have 13) and it's very hard to take back two territories with a drop of 3 troops. First turn is a major advantage in a sequential game, or non-speed freestyle game.

Solar System 4 players (so either 2v2 dubs or 4p) you each start with 15 terits. With normal rolls the first turn, you can get the next player to 14 terits and at a disadvantage to start (they get 4 to drop opposed to the 5 the first player started with). With great dice you take 4 terits and they drop 3 (while you dropped 5).

This would be of lesser importance in multiplayer or manual games - but as I play mostly team or 1v1 games this affects me greatly.

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Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby Chariot of Fire on Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:56 pm

This is an excellent idea and would receive my full support. It's an advantage going first in itself - this will always be the case - but when that is further enhanced by receiving a deploy which is a multiple of 3 or a bonus on the drop then the player going 2nd can only pray for lucky dice to recover his position. In a strategy game such prayers shouldn't be necessary - at least not from Turn #1.
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Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby Queen_Herpes on Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:01 pm

jakewilliams wrote:Draknor: level 1. In 1v1 you each start with 12 terits. If you take a single terit from the next player, they start with 11 (while you have 13) and it's very hard to take back two territories with a drop of 3 troops. First turn is a major advantage in a sequential game, or non-speed freestyle game.

Solar System 4 players (so either 2v2 dubs or 4p) you each start with 15 terits. With normal rolls the first turn, you can get the next player to 14 terits and at a disadvantage to start (they get 4 to drop opposed to the 5 the first player started with). With great dice you take 4 terits and they drop 3 (while you dropped 5).

This would be of lesser importance in multiplayer or manual games - but as I play mostly team or 1v1 games this affects me greatly.

Jake



I have three perspectives on this:

First, yes, you are right it is unfair to the player-who-goes-first.

Second, the dice aren't that predictable. On maps like Solar System and Draknor, I've gone first my fair share of the time. Some of those first turns result in winning 2 or even 3 territories from my opponent. Other first turns result in winning 0 territories. I play my fair share of 1v1 as well. I like the challenge that it brings to go second and have the opponent take one or more territories from me. I win a fair share of those, but, yes, ultimately the player who goes first wins - no matter which map it is. Typically an inexperienced player or a player new to a map will be the one to lose when going first - on any map.

Third, If you reduce the number of territories owned by players, you end up increasing the number of neutral territories resulting in more player territories getting locked in by neutrals. The benefit, then, goes to the player who goes first AND has an enemy on his/her border as opposed to a neutral. (assuming as you have that firstplayer's dice will be successful. I think increaing the number of neutral territories on a map like draknor will make those games last longer...taking them out of the realm of being played in speed...and possibly taking them out of the realm of being played in 1v1.

There are maps that should see a reduction. Ridiculously large maps like Stalingrad, WWII Europe, etc. On those maps, there are simply too many armies awarded tot he player who goes first.

What I would like to see is some kind of coding that prevents multi-territory continent bonuses to be handed out on the drop. One example would be any continental bonus on the Classic map. Another example would be any continental bonus or capitals bonus on BeNeLux.
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Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby TheForgivenOne on Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:23 am

The stop of landing a bonus has been discussed before. That's the luck part of Ri.. i mean CC. That sort of thing can happens on the board game. If you remove people accidentally dropping Aussie on Classic, then people will start complaining if someone drops 3 on Aussie, and you only got 1.
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Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby MrBenn on Fri Jul 16, 2010 2:18 am

If I'm right, you're suggesting that starting neutrals be added to maps which currently have a "non-golden" number of starting territories. The other thing to consider is that on some maps, two or three starting neutrals will need to be added to mitigate an unfair drop.

What would be useful is to get a complete list of maps that are impacted by this, and the location of any proposed starting neutrals (remember that these will have to be in the same place in every single game on the map).
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Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby thenobodies80 on Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:18 am

jakewilliams wrote:I tried to look up this info, but because of starting positions in XML, I couldn't do quick math based on the number of territories. I'm game to do this research if someone can show me a quick way to look through the XML and figure it out. I may even be game for the long way, but I'm certainly not excited to do it.


Jake, as MrBenn said, the first step is to have a complete list of those maps, if you want i can help you to find them during this weekend. Grab me if you see me online ;)

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Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby Dako on Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:58 am

It is good that foundry people are participating in this. I would so love to see unbalanced starting positions to be fixed.
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Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:24 am

I've seen Draknor and Solar System mentioned already. Any others?
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