Dice Odds spoils

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Dice Odds spoils

Postby betiko on Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:55 am

Here is the idea;

Basically changing the size of the dice makes a difference for offense or defense.
The most sides the dice has, the more it benefits attacker advantage (the odds of a tie getting lower which are in benefit of the defender) and vice versa.

(note that for each bonus/normal/malus both attacker and defender use the same type of dice; 8vs8 sided dice, 6vs6 sided dice, 5vs5 sided dice):


red trade: this is bad news for you, if you trade this you will roll 5 sided dice for your offense/your opponent's defense, on the consecutive turn your opponent will roll normal 6 sided dice, so will you.

green trade: you have normal 6 sided offense dice, on the consecutive turn your opponent will roll with a malus of 5 sided dice, so will you.

blue trade: you get to roll 8 sided dice for offense , on the consecutive turn your opponent will roll normal 6 sided dice, so will you.

rainbow trade: 8 sided dice for offense, on the consecutive turn your opponent will roll with a malus of 5 sided dice, so will you.


trading a territory spoil gives that territory the 1 round rainbow trade power no matter the colour of your trade.


this would be a new option for spoils other than escalating, flat rate and nuclear and would award a new type of medal.
Last edited by betiko on Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:49 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Crazy dice spoils

Postby chapcrap on Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:15 am

Rainbow trade would destroy the defender... 50% chance the defender loses no matter what.
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Re: Crazy dice spoils

Postby betiko on Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:20 am

chapcrap wrote:Rainbow trade would destroy the defender... 50% chance the defender loses no matter what.


nope. you trade rainbow, you attack with 8 dice vs 8 dice and when the player is next, unless he trades something, will be attacking with 4 dice vs 4 dice. But if he trades a rainbow just after the other player's rainbow, he attacks with 8 vs 8 and will defend with 4vs4 (the bonus/malus the opponent has put on dice disapears and is replaced by the bonus/malus put in place back to back in case of new trade)
Last edited by betiko on Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:27 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Crazy dice spoils

Postby chapcrap on Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:22 am

betiko wrote:rainbow trade: 8 sided dice for offense, 4 sided dice for defense this round!

You say nothing of 10 sided dice at all in the first post.
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Re: Crazy dice spoils

Postby betiko on Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:24 am

chapcrap wrote:
betiko wrote:rainbow trade: 8 sided dice for offense, 4 sided dice for defense this round!

You say nothing of 10 sided dice at all in the first post.


yeah sorry I said 10 sided dice but you are right, it's 8 sided for offense! ;)
But if someone is good at odds, i'd like to know if 8 and 4 dice are ballanced or not. I want to give an advantage/disadvantage with the spoils, but not something too unfair.
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Re: Crazy dice spoils

Postby chapcrap on Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:01 am

betiko wrote:
chapcrap wrote:
betiko wrote:rainbow trade: 8 sided dice for offense, 4 sided dice for defense this round!

You say nothing of 10 sided dice at all in the first post.


yeah sorry I said 10 sided dice but you are right, it's 8 sided for offense! ;)
But if someone is good at odds, i'd like to know if 8 and 4 dice are ballanced or not. I want to give an advantage/disadvantage with the spoils, but not something too unfair.

That's what I was saying. With 8v4, 50% of attacking dice will win every time, no matter what the defender rolls. Then 4v4 odds added onto that. 8v6 or 6v4 would be better I think. Not that I think this will get put through.

I don't have time to looks at all the odds now, but if someone does, that would be good.
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Re: Crazy dice spoils

Postby betiko on Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:16 pm

chapcrap wrote:
betiko wrote:
chapcrap wrote:
betiko wrote:rainbow trade: 8 sided dice for offense, 4 sided dice for defense this round!

You say nothing of 10 sided dice at all in the first post.


yeah sorry I said 10 sided dice but you are right, it's 8 sided for offense! ;)
But if someone is good at odds, i'd like to know if 8 and 4 dice are ballanced or not. I want to give an advantage/disadvantage with the spoils, but not something too unfair.

That's what I was saying. With 8v4, 50% of attacking dice will win every time, no matter what the defender rolls. Then 4v4 odds added onto that. 8v6 or 6v4 would be better I think. Not that I think this will get put through.

I don't have time to looks at all the odds now, but if someone does, that would be good.


when you have an offensive bonus for example you have an 8 sided dice and the defender has an 8 sided dice. Your odds are better than attacking 6 sided dice vs 6 sided dice, let's say you roll an 8 you have 7/8 (87,5%) chances to win, while when you roll a 6 with a 6 sided dice you have 5/6 (83, 3%) chances to win the fight. You roll a 4 with a 4 sides it's 3/4 (75%). Actually those 4 sided dice might be a bit too unballanced, maybe upgrade them to 5 sided dice? with 4 sided dice it would be close to suicide to attack anything...

you don't have at the same time an offensive bonus and are inflicting a negative bonus on the same attack. offensive bonus is on your turn; defensive bonus is for the oppononent's attacks on you. say you get a rainbow; you roll 8vs8; you opponent plays next and he has no trade. If he decides to attack you, he will be doing 4sides vs 4sides attacks. If after your rainbow he turns in a blue, you defensive bonus is not valid anymore, he uses 8vs8 attacks. but the next go if you don't trade it will be regular 6vs6.
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Re: Crazy dice spoils

Postby Kaskavel on Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:24 pm

By feeling, the 8 vs 8 dice seems reasonable as a small boost to the attacker, but the 4 vs 4 seems like an incredible boost for the defender. The 8 vs 6 or 4 and the like are ridiculus to work properly for the defender and I do not need to do the math to confirm it. By feeling again, I think that for your idea to work, the changes should be towards 8 dice for both if the set is good and 5 dice for both if set is bad, perhaps with some strange 7 vs 6 or something like that for intermediate cases. I have to add that although the idea is interesting, it seems very demanding in programming and I expect it to be rejected for this reason.
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Re: Crazy dice spoils

Postby Kaskavel on Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:35 pm

I can also immediately offer the stats for a 2 vs 1 attack, which is very easy to calculate without drinking my coffee and using programs. Percentage of victory is defender's of course.

Number of dice for both/ Percentage

1/ 100
2/ 75
3/ 66
4/ 62.5
5/ 60
6/ 58.3
7/ 57
8/ 56
9/ 55
etc

I guess similar logic will follow more complicated attacks. Increasing and reducing the dice is not similar in effect. A 5 dice boost for defender is comparable with a 7 or 8 dice boost for attacker, but nothing compares with a 4 dice boost for defender.
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Re: Crazy dice spoils

Postby betiko on Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:05 am

Kaskavel wrote:By feeling, the 8 vs 8 dice seems reasonable as a small boost to the attacker, but the 4 vs 4 seems like an incredible boost for the defender. The 8 vs 6 or 4 and the like are ridiculus to work properly for the defender and I do not need to do the math to confirm it. By feeling again, I think that for your idea to work, the changes should be towards 8 dice for both if the set is good and 5 dice for both if set is bad, perhaps with some strange 7 vs 6 or something like that for intermediate cases. I have to add that although the idea is interesting, it seems very demanding in programming and I expect it to be rejected for this reason.


yes the idea has never been 8vs6 dice or 8vs4 dice. And yes, the 4 dice seem way too unballanced for defensive boosts, unless they are really meant to avoid the opponent to attack that round (when he is about to attack a bonus for example) In those cases you might want to sit there and wait for the next turn unless you can afford it.
But you are right, let's stick to 8 dice and 5 dice for offense and defense.
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Re: Dice Odds spoils

Postby betiko on Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:54 am

any feedback on this? what do you think of the general concept?
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Re: Dice Odds spoils

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:51 am

What's the margin here?
(How much greater is the attacker's advantage for the various dice types, e.g. 8v8, 6v6, 5v5, 4v4?)


If the margin is not significantly different from the 6v6 dice, then it seems difficult to justify the expenditure of resources in implementing this suggestion. Instead, resources could be spent implementing more valuable suggestions.
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Re: Dice Odds spoils

Postby betiko on Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:44 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:What's the margin here?
(How much greater is the attacker's advantage for the various dice types, e.g. 8v8, 6v6, 5v5, 4v4?)


If the margin is not significantly different from the 6v6 dice, then it seems difficult to justify the expenditure of resources in implementing this suggestion. Instead, resources could be spent implementing more valuable suggestions.


to tell the truth, I kind of forgot my probability classes from high school, a bit far now. the 4v4 dice are out.
but here is what common sense tells me how to calculate this (even if there must be more effective formulas)

5v5 dice:
attacker rolls 5: 80% victory
attacker rolls 4: 60% victory
attacker rolls 3: 40% victory
attacker rolls 2: 20% victory
attacker rolls 1: 0% victory

total 200/5= 40% expected win overall for 1 attacker dice, 60% for 1 defender dice

6v6 dice:
attacker rolls 6: 83,3% victory
attacker rolls 5: 66,7% victory
attacker rolls 4: 50% victory
attacker rolls 3: 33,3% victory
attacker rolls 2: 16,7% victory
attacker rolls 1: 0% victory

total 250/6= 41,67% expected win overall for 1 attacker dice, 58,33% for 1 defender dice

8v8 dice:
attacker rolls 8: 87,5% victory
attacker rolls 7: 75% victory
attacker rolls 6: 62,5% victory
attacker rolls 5: 50% victory
attacker rolls 4: 37,5% victory
attacker rolls 3: 25% victory
attacker rolls 2: 12,5% victory
attacker rolls 1: 0% victory

total 350/8= 43,75% expected win overall for 1 attacker dice, 56,25% for 1 defender dice

The idea is not to make a massive difference from 6v6 dice, otherwise games would be way too unballanced. If it's what bothers you we can still use 4v4 and 10v10, but might be too much, again, this is open for discussion.
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Re: Dice Odds spoils

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:08 am

Thanks for throwing down some numbers, but since I'm not sure what margin is best for Dicey Spoils games, I'm not sure if I should be bothered on way or the other.

However, it's an interesting idea because it adds an unexpected yet subtle aspect to a game. So, this could breathe new life into CC.
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Re: Dice Odds spoils

Postby betiko on Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:26 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:Thanks for throwing down some numbers, but since I'm not sure what margin is best for Dicey Spoils games, I'm not sure if I should be bothered on way or the other.

However, it's an interesting idea because it adds an unexpected yet subtle aspect to a game. So, this could breathe new life into CC.


Yeah, I got the idea when they made the "7 dice" for cc's 7th anniversary that were not actually 7 dice (6s were just replaced by 7s) and it made me think that this could bring a whole new strategy.
This would bring a whole new aspect to stacking and attacking momentums, but again, maybe we should throw in bigger advantage and disadvantage?
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Re: Dice Odds spoils

Postby blakebowling on Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:53 pm

This system is far too complicated (I'll admit, it even took me a few minutes to understand). New users won't understand the setting and will be deterred by it. IMO web development time could be best spent elsewhere.
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Re: Dice Odds spoils

Postby betiko on Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:01 pm

I think it's a fun setting for advanced players who really calculate their moves. Not very interesting for casual players, I admit.
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