Change Flat Rate Name to Fixed Rates

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Change Flat Rate Name to Fixed Rates

Postby Fazeem on Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:19 pm

Change name of current system we call Flat Rate to Fixed Rates so room can be left for a true Flat Rate option.


I have read a lot about the Flat Rate debate and feel this is a easy solution that opens the door for yet another option here. What we currently call flat rate is not that it is fixed rates based on color combination of cards. A simple name change can remove that controversy and appease a large group while still retaining the game play option and style for those that like the reinforcement disbursement method. Then the door is opened to have a true Flat rate card option for the site.


This will make both sides happy on from what I can see a long running debate and provide more choices for this great site.
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Re: Change Flat Rate Name to Fixed Rates

Postby chapcrap on Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:14 pm

I'm not sure I know about this controversy. Is there a controversy?

Additionally, I'm not really sure that Fixed and Flat don't have the same meaning for this.
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Re: Change Flat Rate Name to Fixed Rates

Postby DoomYoshi on Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:11 pm

chapcrap wrote:I'm not sure I know about this controversy. Is there a controversy?

Additionally, I'm not really sure that Fixed and Flat don't have the same meaning for this.


A flat rate mortgage never changes. Flat rate spoils do change, depending on what cards you have. Of course, a fixed rate mortgage doesn't change either.
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Re: Change Flat Rate Name to Fixed Rates

Postby Fazeem on Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:32 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:
chapcrap wrote:I'm not sure I know about this controversy. Is there a controversy?

Additionally, I'm not really sure that Fixed and Flat don't have the same meaning for this.


A flat rate mortgage never changes. Flat rate spoils do change, depending on what cards you have. Of course, a fixed rate mortgage doesn't change either.

One of the biggest differences is the addition of a "s" at the end of rate showing that it is a plural instead of a singular like is currently implied. Controversy was me being exaggerative of the other suggestions for a true Flat Rate card Set where all card cash in combinations get you the same amount of troops. Hopefully that clarified it for you guys so far lol
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Re: Change Flat Rate Name to Fixed Rates

Postby DoomYoshi on Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:56 pm

I knew what you meant fazeem. You are not the first player to be confused by that.

However, the flat rate wording goes right back to RISK for DOS, sticks with RISK II and I doubt it will change. You just have to get used to the language we use. To some "Trench Warfare" implies eating Spam, singing "Its a long way to Tipperary" and not sticking your head up too high. To some, cyan and teal are different colors. Here on CC, we have our own language. I will leave this out for a while, and if there is tremendous interest, I won't put it into rejected.
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Re: Change Flat Rate Name to Fixed Rates

Postby Fazeem on Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:32 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:I knew what you meant fazeem. You are not the first player to be confused by that.

However, the flat rate wording goes right back to RISK for DOS, sticks with RISK II and I doubt it will change. You just have to get used to the language we use. To some "Trench Warfare" implies eating Spam, singing "Its a long way to Tipperary" and not sticking your head up too high. To some, cyan and teal are different colors. Here on CC, we have our own language. I will leave this out for a while, and if there is tremendous interest, I won't put it into rejected.

I had no confusion with the naming I have been here for a few years now but yeah that is not the direction or analogies I would think coincide with this suggestion but tis what it tis. The most recent thread about a True Flat Rate option is in general discussions I bumped it earlier in reference to this idea and again though we are Conquer Club I thought so the more we are not held back by what RIsk is and the more this site defines itself as a seperate improved brand the better I would think.

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=185373
Last edited by Fazeem on Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Change Flat Rate Name to Fixed Rates

Postby Metsfanmax on Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:12 am

There is nothing wrong with the "flat rate" title. A green set is always worth 6 troops in a flat rate game, and that is consistent. It is not obvious that one should interpret "flat rate" as meaning that all card sets are worth the same, so I doubt that this is a serious case of confusion among the players. If instead you want to push for a setting where all card sets are worth the same amount, I suggest you come up with a clever name that clearly distinguishes it from flat rate. It would be slightly confusing to have "flat rate" and "fixed rates."
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Re: Change Flat Rate Name to Fixed Rates

Postby Fazeem on Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:32 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:There is nothing wrong with the "flat rate" title. A green set is always worth 6 troops in a flat rate game, and that is consistent. It is not obvious that one should interpret "flat rate" as meaning that all card sets are worth the same, so I doubt that this is a serious case of confusion among the players. If instead you want to push for a setting where all card sets are worth the same amount, I suggest you come up with a clever name that clearly distinguishes it from flat rate. It would be slightly confusing to have "flat rate" and "fixed rates."

A flat fee, also referred to as a flat rate or a linear rate, refers to a pricing structure that charges a single fixed fee for a service, regardless of usage.[1] Rarely, it may refer to a rate that does not vary with usage or time of use. Another term used is "flate", a hybrid of "flat" and "rate".
the current name reflects 4 separate fixed rates it is not a flat rate I get people oppose change and willfully embrace the familiar even when it is based on ignorance but this site should be about improving a game archetype model not being bound to past failures. It can be argued a number of features that currently are implemented on here are not "Risk" or based on its known variant's which to me is good as this site is Conquer Club and it is far superior to simple "Risk". Change the name and introduce a true Flat Rate where all trade in card combinations regardless of colors give the same reinforcement amount. Embracing this idea creates a new game play dynamic and corrects a perpetuated error in the labeling of a game play type.
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Re: Change Flat Rate Name to Fixed Rates

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed May 01, 2013 1:49 pm

Fazeem wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:There is nothing wrong with the "flat rate" title. A green set is always worth 6 troops in a flat rate game, and that is consistent. It is not obvious that one should interpret "flat rate" as meaning that all card sets are worth the same, so I doubt that this is a serious case of confusion among the players. If instead you want to push for a setting where all card sets are worth the same amount, I suggest you come up with a clever name that clearly distinguishes it from flat rate. It would be slightly confusing to have "flat rate" and "fixed rates."

A flat fee, also referred to as a flat rate or a linear rate, refers to a pricing structure that charges a single fixed fee for a service, regardless of usage.[1] Rarely, it may refer to a rate that does not vary with usage or time of use. Another term used is "flate", a hybrid of "flat" and "rate".
the current name reflects 4 separate fixed rates it is not a flat rate I get people oppose change and willfully embrace the familiar even when it is based on ignorance but this site should be about improving a game archetype model not being bound to past failures. It can be argued a number of features that currently are implemented on here are not "Risk" or based on its known variant's which to me is good as this site is Conquer Club and it is far superior to simple "Risk". Change the name and introduce a true Flat Rate where all trade in card combinations regardless of colors give the same reinforcement amount. Embracing this idea creates a new game play dynamic and corrects a perpetuated error in the labeling of a game play type.


In Flat Rate, there is a single fixed reward for cashing in a set of green spoils. In Flat Rate, there is a single fixed reward for cashing in a set of red spoils. In Flat Rate, there is a single fixed reward for cashing in a set of blue spoils. In Flat Rate, there is a single fixed reward for cashing in a set of mixed spoils.

What part of that reflects ignorance or failure?
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Re: Change Flat Rate Name to Fixed Rates

Postby greenoaks on Wed May 01, 2013 5:00 pm

there is no need to change the name. the spoils rewarded are Flat as opposed to those that Escalate.

and we'll never have an option where you get the same reward regardless of the colour of the set cashed. that option adds nothing to the game and will be rightfully rejected, again.
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Re: Change Flat Rate Name to Fixed Rates

Postby Fazeem on Wed May 01, 2013 9:28 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Fazeem wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:There is nothing wrong with the "flat rate" title. A green set is always worth 6 troops in a flat rate game, and that is consistent. It is not obvious that one should interpret "flat rate" as meaning that all card sets are worth the same, so I doubt that this is a serious case of confusion among the players. If instead you want to push for a setting where all card sets are worth the same amount, I suggest you come up with a clever name that clearly distinguishes it from flat rate. It would be slightly confusing to have "flat rate" and "fixed rates."

A flat fee, also referred to as a flat rate or a linear rate, refers to a pricing structure that charges a single fixed fee for a service, regardless of usage.[1] Rarely, it may refer to a rate that does not vary with usage or time of use. Another term used is "flate", a hybrid of "flat" and "rate".
the current name reflects 4 separate fixed rates it is not a flat rate I get people oppose change and willfully embrace the familiar even when it is based on ignorance but this site should be about improving a game archetype model not being bound to past failures. It can be argued a number of features that currently are implemented on here are not "Risk" or based on its known variant's which to me is good as this site is Conquer Club and it is far superior to simple "Risk". Change the name and introduce a true Flat Rate where all trade in card combinations regardless of colors give the same reinforcement amount. Embracing this idea creates a new game play dynamic and corrects a perpetuated error in the labeling of a game play type.


In Flat Rate, there is a single fixed reward for cashing in a set of green spoils. In Flat Rate, there is a single fixed reward for cashing in a set of red spoils. In Flat Rate, there is a single fixed reward for cashing in a set of blue spoils. In Flat Rate, there is a single fixed reward for cashing in a set of mixed spoils.

What part of that reflects ignorance or failure?

It is 4 seperate fixed rates based on color instead of one as I already pointed out, a basic fallacy in the name the simple Change to "Flat Rates" would correct the grammatical issue with it. Even your explanation emphasizes my point as you describe multiple fixed rates with your own words in contrast to a single flat rate as the name implies. Just because previous "Risk Game Designers" did not think it through when labeling does not mean that this site has to perpetuate the same ignorance. There is opportunity here to set a trend that is lacking in society in general instead of just accepting dumb things based on tradition or familiarity, recognise and acknowledge the issue when someone points out the obvious and actually correct it. That and we can have 2 Great Game Options the already Existing Fixed Rates we currently call Flat Rate and a True Flat Rate thus giving the site a more diversity and distinction. Wins all the way around there is no lose in this scenerio.
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Re: Change Flat Rate Name to Fixed Rates

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed May 01, 2013 9:34 pm

Fazeem, you would do well to recognize that someone may disagree with you without being dumb or ignorant. In this case, there is a legitimate argument to be made for why "Flat Rate" is actually grammatically correct and a fair description of the situation (namely, that the reward for any particular combination of submitted cards is fixed). Given that changing the name of a game type in all locations on the website is not a completely trivial task, I'm not going to recommend it to the admins unless there are people who have been legitimately confused by this name (not that there is any excuse, since it is explained in the instructions).

Anyway, the name change is not what is currently precluding us from implementing what you call "true" flat rate games. It's simply not particularly desired by most people.
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Re: Change Flat Rate Name to Fixed Rates

Postby Fazeem on Thu May 02, 2013 11:01 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:Fazeem, you would do well to recognize that someone may disagree with you without being dumb or ignorant. In this case, there is a legitimate argument to be made for why "Flat Rate" is actually grammatically correct and a fair description of the situation (namely, that the reward for any particular combination of submitted cards is fixed). Given that changing the name of a game type in all locations on the website is not a completely trivial task, I'm not going to recommend it to the admins unless there are people who have been legitimately confused by this name (not that there is any excuse, since it is explained in the instructions).

Anyway, the name change is not what is currently precluding us from implementing what you call "true" flat rate games. It's simply not particularly desired by most people.

Every time you use the term fixed as a descriptor in your rebuttal and describe plural card combinations you cosign me and undermine your own argument. I never called anyone in particular dumb just the complacency with a fallacy a "dumb" action. So please do not project any personal feelings you have based on your position into something I did not say. If you feel your defense is ignorant that is on you not something I said about you or anyone else on this site.

The changing of the description to a more logical and accurate set of terms is a smart move regardless of if you see it that way or not again Conquer Club is a pace setter and stands far above the competition there is no reason it should be bound by others mistakes. The more options this site offers the better, a simple thing can be implemented and you would be surprised by how many people use and love that which never asked for, just some food for thought there bub.

Also upon more pronounced searching I found multiple threads including a 10 page thread on the subject and found that it was supposed to be on the to do list but never happened. It looks like there was a large amount of interest from multiple still active players and since it took so long people just gave up on it again just fyi for you before you dismiss it as lacking interest.
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Re: Change Flat Rate Name to Fixed Rates

Postby DoomYoshi on Fri May 03, 2013 1:53 am

How is "fixed" any more accurate than "flat" in an objective manner? It isnt. Fazeem, I can almost guarantee this suggestion will never be put forth.

You can continue to post here, and try to drum up some support from the community, but don't get your hopes up to ever see this come to fruition.
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Re: Change Flat Rate Name to Fixed Rates

Postby macbone on Fri May 03, 2013 2:32 am

"Fixed" and "flat" are merely synonyms. Call it fixed or flat rate, but to me it means the same thing. In fact, "fixed rate" could just as easily be applied to spoils where 3 cards = X, 4 cards = Y, and 5 cards = Z. There's nothing inherent in the word "fixed" that precludes it from being used to describe games with no variation in the value of a set of spoils. Adding an -S to the end of 'rate" has the same effect, whether you're talking about "flat rates" or "fixed rates."
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Re: Change Flat Rate Name to Fixed Rates

Postby Fazeem on Fri May 03, 2013 10:57 am

macbone wrote:"Fixed" and "flat" are merely synonyms. Call it fixed or flat rate, but to me it means the same thing. In fact, "fixed rate" could just as easily be applied to spoils where 3 cards = X, 4 cards = Y, and 5 cards = Z. There's nothing inherent in the word "fixed" that precludes it from being used to describe games with no variation in the value of a set of spoils. Adding an -S to the end of 'rate" has the same effect, whether you're talking about "flat rates" or "fixed rates."

I wholeheartedly disagree and have found examples to support my claim. I get it you guys like the name and see nothing wrong with it even though it is incorrect grammatically and in definition. Society has a tradition of using incorrect terms in application to various things Racists use a Incorrect term when referring to part of my ancestry, Given that most of the Slaves did not come from the Nation of Niger, Nobles and Peasants alike of for generations blindly accepted that Everything in Universe revolved around a flat world. There are numerous examples of people accepting and justifying things based solely on tradition and common understanding of a made up or false application of definition.
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Re: Change Flat Rate Name to Fixed Rates

Postby spiesr on Fri May 03, 2013 11:39 am

At this point changing the name of Flat Rate and introducing a new setting using the old name will cause more confusion than it would cure. If you want to just add an 's' to end end if/when the single value option is added then that would probably be okay, but not necessarily important.
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Re: Change Flat Rate Name to Fixed Rates

Postby zimmah on Fri May 03, 2013 4:32 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:I knew what you meant fazeem. You are not the first player to be confused by that.

However, the flat rate wording goes right back to RISK for DOS, sticks with RISK II and I doubt it will change. You just have to get used to the language we use. To some "Trench Warfare" implies eating Spam, singing "Its a long way to Tipperary" and not sticking your head up too high. To some, cyan and teal are different colors. Here on CC, we have our own language. I will leave this out for a while, and if there is tremendous interest, I won't put it into rejected.



cyan and teal áre different colors. or well, teal is a shade of cyan, so teal is cyan, but cyan isn't always teal. than, cyan as a color is not teal either.

here's the difference: cyan and teal
Click image to enlarge.
image
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Re: Change Flat Rate Name to Fixed Rates

Postby Fazeem on Fri May 03, 2013 5:17 pm

spiesr wrote:At this point changing the name of Flat Rate and introducing a new setting using the old name will cause more confusion than it would cure. If you want to just add an 's' to end end if/when the single value option is added then that would probably be okay, but not necessarily important.

hey bub I bumped all the other threads on the topic why not merge them as it would do more justice for the subject for people tpo be able to easily read how this debate has raged on this site since from what I can see 2006
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Re: Change Flat Rate Name to Fixed Rates

Postby macbone on Sat May 04, 2013 4:55 am

Actually, fazeem, the racial slur you're referring to comes from the Portuguese/Spanish word for black, negro, and the now-derogatory French word nègre, and both of those words are from the Latin niger (again, "black"). The region Niger is named after the river, Ni Ger ("River Ger"). The river is unrelated to the Spanish/Portuguese word.

As for your other point, it's already been demonstrated that flat and fixed are synonyms. The flat tax idea is that everyone pays a fixed sales rate, and a fixed rate mortgage has a flat, unvarying interest rate.

Change the name if there's a compelling reason to do so, but there's already precedent (again cited in this thread) for using the term "flat rate".
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actualluy the origin of Re: Change Flat Rate Name to Fixed R

Postby Fazeem on Sat May 04, 2013 11:01 am

macbone wrote:Actually, fazeem, the racial slur you're referring to comes from the Portuguese/Spanish word for black, negro, and the now-derogatory French word nègre, and both of those words are from the Latin niger (again, "black"). The region Niger is named after the river, Ni Ger ("River Ger"). The river is unrelated to the Spanish/Portuguese word.

As for your other point, it's already been demonstrated that flat and fixed are synonyms. The flat tax idea is that everyone pays a fixed sales rate, and a fixed rate mortgage has a flat, unvarying interest rate.

Change the name if there's a compelling reason to do so, but there's already precedent (again cited in this thread) for using the term "flat rate".

Actually the origin of the racial slur is debatable as there is historical evidence to support multiple different linguistic origins but the synonym level you claim is not entirely accurate. Flat Rate is singular any fool with google can do a search and prove that so precedence is no excuse for ignorance yet again in regards to the true topic at hand. Your examples again prove my point everyone you used describes a singular fixed rate someone early gave a great analogy every Flat Rate is Fixed but multiple Fixed Rates does not equal Flat. I get that people resist change but if the only compelling argument to do so is because at this moment multiple people are not clamoring for It I suggest that you guys merge all the threads on the subject I bumped and reassess the actual site Precedent for the request and True Flat Rate feature.
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Re: Change Flat Rate Name to Fixed Rates

Postby greenoaks on Sat May 04, 2013 5:31 pm

i don't see a compelling reason to change. i see 1 person on a crusade.
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Re: Change Flat Rate Name to Fixed Rates

Postby AslanTheKing on Sun May 05, 2013 5:03 pm

there are 4 !!! flat rates

4 for red,
6 for green,
8 for blue and
10 for mixed.

the colours are flat, 4 different flatrates
that simple
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Re: Change Flat Rate Name to Fixed Rates

Postby Fazeem on Sun May 05, 2013 7:04 pm

AslanTheKing wrote:there are 4 !!! flat rates

4 for red,
6 for green,
8 for blue and
10 for mixed.

the colours are flat, 4 different flatrates
that simple

Exactly Like I said Plural "Flat Rates" Not Singular "Flat Rate" thank you for your support. This is not a 1 person crusade there are multiple threads on the subject with current activity in here and general discussions one in particular has 10 plus pages of tAlk on it. My suggestion is based on having both sides win, creating a new game play option and showing the forward thinking of the great site again wins all ways around.
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Re: Change Flat Rate Name to Fixed Rates

Postby blakebowling on Sun May 05, 2013 8:05 pm

I'm going to go ahead and Reject this as it adds nothing to gameplay or the site overall.
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