Show starting neutrals on map previews

[BENJIKAT IS DEAD]

Concise description:

• Show the enforced starting neutrals on the map previews used in the game finder

Specifics:

• the layout and size of any starting neutrals are as important to the topology of a map as the arrangement of the territories is, but there is no quick way to find this at the moment. I have to search for a recently started non-foggy game in order to see them. This way they would always be easily accessible in the game finder
• it could be made part of the quenching process for the map makers to provide an extra version with the starting neutrals shown

This will improve the following aspects of the site:

• it would also mean that more people would know what they were letting themselves in for with maps like feudal, AoR etc. Currently new(ish) players get surprised by all the neutrals that they see for the first time when already in the game.

[Jeff Hardy]

yeah this would be great

my first aor2 game i went all sanctuary thinking it was like a race to get there and found 75 or so armies
lost me the game... if i had seen this i might have won
i am sure im not the only player to have done this

[Incandenza]

This is an excellent idea.

[FabledIntegral]

I agree... although you could figure out who was where when you see a neutral army and then you see "Player X attacked and conquered ? from a neutral player."

Would ruin AoR, Feudal games, etc.

[Night Strike]

It's a good idea, but I'm not sure if it's doable. The thumbnail is just a downsized picture of the large/small map. The neutrals are not actually shown on this map, but are instead part of the XML file. I suppose it could be added as an extra requirement for the cartographers, but I'm not sure that would go over very well.

[t-o-m]

It's a good idea, but I'm not sure if it's doable.

It's as easy as pie.

It's just an image after all.
Unless the same link is used for the map preview on game finder AND in-game.

Alls you need is the numbers, which everyone has.

[Night Strike]

The game maps are put on the site as jpg. All the thumbnails are png files, but I'm guessing lack does that himself. I doubt he would want to go through the XML and add the neutrals to their starting places.

[t-o-m]

It's hardly very hard.

[Timminz]

I agree... although you could figure out who was where when you see a neutral army and then you see "Player X attacked and conquered ? from a neutral player."

Would ruin AoR, Feudal games, etc.

I fail to understand how this would "ruin" games on any map. Unless you're banking on playing people who have no idea what a map looks like at the start of a game.

This is a wonderful suggestion. I like the shot t-o-m posted, except I think that the territories that may start with an actual player's armies should show something other that 3 neutrals. Maybe a question mark, or a symbol of some sort should be shown on those territories. Maybe a brief description, regarding different possible starting positions for different sized games, could be attached to the top of each map-image (only in gamefinder/start a game links). It would require mapmakers to provide an extra image, but it would be a simple image to create, and would be extremely useful when looking at a map before deciding if/what style to play.

[BENJIKAT IS DEAD]

I agree... although you could figure out who was where when you see a neutral army and then you see "Player X attacked and conquered ? from a neutral player."

Would ruin AoR, Feudal games, etc.

I think you misread my suggestion - I am only talking about showing the STARTING neutrals on the PREVIEW!

t-o-m's post shows what I mean - but the potential starting positions probably just need to be left blank - having them in colour may just confuse (unless it is a colour that is distinct from the 8 already used in-game)

[t-o-m]

Or maybe have something above those neutral starts saying:

_______
|Starting|
|Position|
------------

[BENJIKAT IS DEAD]

Or maybe have something above those neutral starts saying:

_______
|Starting|
|Position|
------------

That's all well and good for AoR and feudal - but what about the half-and half maps like Supermax and Arms Race?

[chipv]

Can we tie this idea together with this as a stop-gap?

viewtopic.php?f=127&t=36514&start=330&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

[edbeard]

tom makes it seem easier than it is. I'm guessing that he just found a newly started game and took a screenshot. Though, most of the time in these situations mapmakers show a version of the map with starting neutrals so it really isn't a big deal since it'll be done as part of the foundry process anyway.

I do agree it'd be nice if the name of each map was a link to a page that described the map and gave relevant info about it but that's a separate issue.

[t-o-m]

tom makes it seem easier than it is. I'm guessing that he just found a newly started game and took a screenshot. Though, most of the time in these situations mapmakers show a version of the map with starting neutrals so it really isn't a big deal since it'll be done as part of the foundry process anyway.

Yes, i found a game that no one had taken a turn on yet.


However i dont think it would be too hard to just get numbers 1-9 and then add them yourself (yourself being the maker of the map)

[FabledIntegral]

I agree... although you could figure out who was where when you see a neutral army and then you see "Player X attacked and conquered ? from a neutral player."

Would ruin AoR, Feudal games, etc.

I think you misread my suggestion - I am only talking about showing the STARTING neutrals on the PREVIEW!

t-o-m's post shows what I mean - but the potential starting positions probably just need to be left blank - having them in colour may just confuse (unless it is a colour that is distinct from the 8 already used in-game)

I got it - sounds ... different. So could you keep recreating a map if you don't like the neutral layout? (of course, it would be incredibly hard to manipulate since the drops of you and your opponent are random still).

[BENJIKAT IS DEAD]

I agree... although you could figure out who was where when you see a neutral army and then you see "Player X attacked and conquered ? from a neutral player."

Would ruin AoR, Feudal games, etc.

I think you misread my suggestion - I am only talking about showing the STARTING neutrals on the PREVIEW!

t-o-m's post shows what I mean - but the potential starting positions probably just need to be left blank - having them in colour may just confuse (unless it is a colour that is distinct from the 8 already used in-game)

I got it - sounds ... different. So could you keep recreating a map if you don't like the neutral layout? (of course, it would be incredibly hard to manipulate since the drops of you and your opponent are random still).

You are still missing the point - the ENFORCED starting neutrals are the same for every game - 3 on Napolean/ Wellington in Waterloo; all the guards on Supermax; etc

[edbeard]

tom makes it seem easier than it is. I'm guessing that he just found a newly started game and took a screenshot. Though, most of the time in these situations mapmakers show a version of the map with starting neutrals so it really isn't a big deal since it'll be done as part of the foundry process anyway.

Yes, i found a game that no one had taken a turn on yet.


However i dont think it would be too hard to just get numbers 1-9 and then add them yourself (yourself being the maker of the map)

it's easy enough to do it when the map is already up

doing what you did is VERY misleading. not that I didn't expect that from you. you really are a piece of work.


if they're doing it already and they pass it along that's one thing. requiring it of a map maker is another. It seems like this'll become another overly structured thing map makers are required to do. Colour needs to be grey version21ac8f. Font needs to be size 11 bolded Capricorn Narrow ITC with a outer glow that has a 75% opacity.

[BENJIKAT IS DEAD]

I was kind of expecting it could be done in a relatively automated way - using a version of the number display tool, that only displays the territories witha <neutral> tag.

[e_i_pi]

I agree, good idea. My first games on Feudal, AoR, and New World were all horrible experiences. I had absolutely no idea where to go, and the people I played against knew the lay of the land. Map inexperience shouldn't mean you have a clear disadvantage from not knowing the neutrals at the start of the game.

[edbeard]

I was kind of expecting it could be done in a relatively automated way - using a version of the number display tool, that only displays the territories witha <neutral> tag.

I don't think it has the capability but it'd certainly be a useful one if this were to become implemented.

[chipv]

I was kind of expecting it could be done in a relatively automated way - using a version of the number display tool, that only displays the territories witha <neutral> tag.

This is what I was trying to explain earlier. In advance of the site implementing map-specific info, a script could do this with very little effort amongst other map-specific info contained in the .xmls
The script would intially scan all .xmls and then only need to poll the main maps .xml to see if any new ones have surfaced.

[BENJIKAT IS DEAD]

Whilst having a script that could do this easily for me (I will suggest it as an extra for BOB), it wouldn't also help out the newer players, many of whom are completely baffled when faced with a map with many neutrals (especially in the fog)

[firth4eva]

Already been suggested.

[BENJIKAT IS DEAD]

Already been suggested.

where?