Clan League Suggestion Box - Better? ; )

[The Voice]

Don't start phase 2 on easter weekend?

I would think everyone would have plenty of time to make their games!

Cheme will issue medals and such soon. It is Easter weekend.

...

Easter weekend...

This is Monday and I am just now getting KOA games list finished. Our original contact switched clans and I had to take his place and absolutely am not up to speed on this. So don't feed us the "plenty of time" crap.

jefjef and Leehar if you cannot handle timelines set down by the people who do all the work i suggest you find someone who can out of your 50 members. chemefreak is trying to make this run smooth and avoid the pissing and moaning, so give the organizers and clan mods a break and follow the rules and timelines please.

But this is a complaint box...what else would go here?

[Bones2484]

I'll just go with a generic "Our Division was run so poorly in Phase 1 that we had no idea what the hell was going on half the time. The rules kept changing and the rules were sporadically enforced at what seemed was the whim of the organizer. This lead G1 to completely stop caring about the event and will likely hold us out of all future Clan Leagues and Cups and focus only one 1v1 wars."

[TheMissionary]

In phase 1 I feel MM was prejudiced against in one of our batches. We had our games sent and posted in the forum before all but 1 other clan for round 5. I got the reply that "Games were supposed to be done by today."
However every other clan got to use their home games. The rules simply stated that games had to be sent and posted in the forum for your opponents.

If you review the thread, ours were not the last posted, but we were the only ones on random maps (other than the clan that requested random). To me that blatantly shows prejudice.

I think MM will also be avoiding future clan leagues of this format.

[alt1978]

I'm digging the complaint box...and several of these issues being brought up are good to address in Clan League 5.

I wanted to weigh in on the complexity of what the league is trying to accomplish. First of all...with the shear number of clans participating...it is an organizational nightmare to try and manage. If you look at CC Cup...undisputedly a well oiled machine that produces some of the best cc action on the site...with 32 clans playing there are only 31 match ups (maybe a couple more with play-ins). In the league...in round 1 alone for a 6 team there were 15 match ups to manage. Add that up and multiply it out and you get a whole shit-ton of match-ups to manage.

Has clan league 4 been run without a hitch?
Probably not. To say there is no room for improvement is nieve at best...but I just ask that folks consider the degree of difficulty of what is trying to be taken on.

Also...I wanted to lump a set of complaints into one category and look at them from another light. There was the decision to award a clan a division spot in favor of another without games being played. There were uneven divisions in terms of numbers of teams distributed in each (there were no play-in games like in cc cup). The schedule has been really tight and unforgiving.

These three things stand out as the strongest complaints about cl4. I would say that all three of these issues come down to one central theme...and that is that there isn't enough time. It's easy to say now...let's slow down...another week doesn't matter. However, in the conception and planning of CL4...there were two main concerns for moving the league forward.

A) Make the league more inclusive
B) Make the league not take so long

(There was also C)...nuke spoils...but that is a topic for another thread and another day)

I would say this league has flaws...areas of improvement etc. in its form. If the organizers were given the sense by the community that the community at large in the future was comfortable with a more sprawling time table for the league...I think a lot of these issues would be resolved. However I feel the league has been wildly successful in its function...which is getting unique groupings of clans together...and letting them duke it out. I don't think there is really any argument that clans in the top tier aren't worthy...and I don't think there is any shame at all in being in tier two or any of the subsequent tiers.

For this...I say Hats Off to dj and rj.

Again...the degree of difficulty for what is trying to be pulled off here is ridiculous...so I just urge that folks give everyone a chance to learn along the way and be patient as details are ironed out. The criticism has certainly been helpful...so let's keep the ideas coming and hopefully we can turn those into an even more polished piece of work next time around.

Thank you dj and rj for all of your hard work...and thanks to the other organizers for the time you all have given this.

[Crazyirishman]

The schedule has been really tight and unforgiving

This is the only issue I had with the format, mainly because (no surprise) it affected my clan significantly. The time it takes is also not the best as there can be games that mess-up the whole thing, for example:

Game 10618023

If one of our other games hadn't taken a swing and it was 6-5 LoW our division would still be up in the air, and we still wouldn't have the top two divisions decided at this point. A way to fix this could simply be having round limits implemented into league games. I am not complaining about where we ended up, AoC played well and deserved that top spot, but this shows how the league can be put to a halt because of one game.

[lordnex]

I feel that my clan (Empire) was unfairly prejudiced in that the 'equalizing possibilities vis a vis qualification with clans from larger divisions' with adding of only 1 point and 6 wins + losses, severely diminished our win percentage. Our win percentage of 77% was the best across all clans involved in Phase 1, but we were granted a draw against our mythical 6th clan, while other divisions had the opportunity to benefit with a victory from a lesser seed.

While we managed to only suffer being given 3rd place overall despite our superior record, doubtless myriad other clans were forced into lower divisions despite their better results.

There is not really a good way to solve that problem, as far as I am aware. Granting you your average result against the other clans in your division also doesn't capture the "weakest clan doesn't exist". And granting the average result of the clan with the same ranking in other divisions against the lowest ranked clan in that division is a solution that's so complicated it becomes unfeasible.

Yes, there is a good way. You simply disregard results against 6th placed team in 6-team groups. I'd agree with Leehar, biggest problem was this unfair rule that gave advantage to teams in 6-team groups.

[IcePack]

Didn't everyone know the rules prior to sign up / start up regarding 6 team groups though?

[Swifte]

Didn't everyone know the rules prior to sign up / start up regarding 6 team groups though?

They should have, but sometimes it's hard to determine how the rules will impact the outcome untill you actually play the games and see the actual impact... that's what feedback is for.

[IcePack]

Ok - I understand. Just making sure I knew the situation clearly.

[eddie2]

alt can i give you a list off problems i have seen so far.(there is not that many.)

1)sign up rules need to be followed i seen 2 clans that had not completed 1 war in the phase 1. so either sign ups are open to all or they follow the guidelines they set out in the thread.

2)on the start of each phrase each clan rep needs to be pmed telling them it has started. i don't know about other divisions but group 4 has had 2 clans miss the first deadline because we did not know it started.

3) there needs to be at least a 2 week period from the announcement of the tables to the start of game creation. and if this time period is during a public holiday it needs to be extended the amount of time needed. this is to allow time to sort out what maps you want for what week games.

4) callouts for all leagues or cups wanting clans to join should be in the clan war callout section until sign ups close. not in clan general discussion pages.

5) in the opening phase there needs to be a rule added for clans who have qualified in 1 of the top 2 spots and are obviously throwing games.(this was something seen but no rule to enforce against it..and was in the past so9 not gonna comment any further about who what or where.)

[alt1978]

Thanks Eddie...

Those are well thought out criticisms that I think will help. I know from working with RJ behind the scenes that he is passionate about doing this thing right and he cares very much about putting out a top notch product. There are going to be hiccups with an undertaking of this size.

To address the complaints about the 6 versus 5 team groupings...that is certainly something that will be looked at very closely for next year's league. Just to reiterate where that decision was coming from...the league was trying to be inclusive and let as many clans have a shot at a variety of match-ups as possible. I'm not saying that the decision was right or fair...but i'm saying that given the criteria that were given to rj to start the league...the uneven groups with slightly less balanced scoring outweighed cutting some clans out...or forcing clans to perform some kind of "play-in".

Thanks again to everyone's input.

[WPBRJ]

Didn't everyone know the rules prior to sign up / start up regarding 6 team groups though?

They should have, but sometimes it's hard to determine how the rules will impact the outcome untill you actually play the games and see the actual impact... that's what feedback is for.

this is probably the most true statement i have seen any were about the rules for that matter. i have to say in conversations with DJ we never expected certain things to turn out the way they did and there are for sure corrections to made for next year.

[Teflon Kris]

The already tight Easter deadline could have been somewhat alleviated by announcing the schedules at the same time as the division placements. The schedules should have already been set up with generic names that could have been filled as soon as the selections were announced. For example:

• Round 1: 8 April
  
  • Team 4 - Team 1
    
  • Team 5 - Team 2
    
  • Team 6 - Team 3
  • Team 7 - Team 8
• Round 2: 15 April
  
  • Team 2 - Team 4
    
  • Team 3 - Team 1
  • Team 8 - Team 5
  • Team 7 - Team 6
• Week 3 = Divisional Knock-Out Tournaments - First Round: 22 April
  
  
• Round 3: 29 April
  
  • Team 4 - Team 3
    
  • Team 2 - Team 8
  • Team 1 - Team 7
  • Team 5 - Team 6
• Round 4 - 6 May
  
  • Team 8 - Team 4
    
  • Team 7 - Team 3
  • Team 6 - Team 2
  • Team 5 - Team 1
• Round 5 - 13 May
  
  • Team 4 - Team 7
    
  • Team 8 - Team 6
  • Team 3 - Team 5
  • Team 2 - Team 1
• Round 6 - 20 May
  
  • Team 6 - Team 4
    
  • Team 5 - Team 7
  • Team 1 - Team 8
  • Team 2 - Team 3
• Round 7 - 27 May
  
  • Team 4 - Team 5
    
  • Team 6 - Team 1
  • Team 7 - Team 2
  • Team 8 - Team 3

Where:
Team 1 = TOFU
Team 2 = IA
Team 3 = EMP
Team 4 = PACK
Team 5 = AOC
Team 6 = AFOS
Team 7 = TSM
Team 8 = KORT

Creating the schedule while we were waiting for the Phase 1 games to finish up would have allowed clans an extra day or two to prepare for their matchups this week.

Feel free top send any good ideas in advance to event organisers

[MudPuppy]

Feel free top send any good ideas in advance to event organisers

My foresight isn't nearly as good as my hindsight, though.

[eddie2]

show: before wpbrj interuption.

then things were sorted without him

show: everything sorted

then i think his feeling were hurt so he stirred shit up again. so like he wants to say i was the guilty party let his small mind think this. but in all effect he was baiting me into responses after it had been fixed.and i really could not be arsed with a inexperianced abnoxious sod who has never run a tourney giving people he did not want in it crap. he is on a power rush and thinks he has the backing of everyone also thinking he is higher than the moderators who watch this section to make sure they are run correct.

[General Brock II]

Eddie, it would probably help your case if you had a time for that pm that you send? Could you get a screencap?

[pearljamrox2]

If you want to make this personal eddie. I understand completely why RJ wouldn't want to deal with you. Last I knew Tournament organizers could refuse certain people from joining tournaments if they have had problems with the person in the past. You are well known for being a belligerent trouble maker. I also am aware that during the ACC, you were on a FORUM BAN, but couldn't contain yourself, and had someone else post one of your harassing nonsensical rants for you under their name. I also seem to remember your last clan, "Time" quitting in the middle of a competition. All of these are pretty good reasons why someone might not want you to be involved....and gee...what do ya know. Here you are again. Just like always. Acting like an ass.
As for your non personal attacks..

alt can i give you a list off problems i have seen so far.(there is not that many.)


2)on the start of each phrase each clan rep needs to be pmed telling them it has started. i don't know about other divisions but group 4 has had 2 clans miss the first deadline because we did not know it started.
I was contacted 3 times. Once on April 1st by DJ, and again in the following 2 days from my Division Director. I had a full week to procrastinate before finally having to get my shit done. I wonder about the other 5 clans in your division, and the other 30 something clans in the tournament that got their stuff done on time too

3) there needs to be at least a 2 week period from the announcement of the tables to the start of game creation. and if this time period is during a public holiday it needs to be extended the amount of time needed. this is to allow time to sort out what maps you want for what week games.

The last Phase has been finishing up for weeks. Every contact knew Phase 2 was coming soon. There is no reason why you couldn't have been thinking about your maps already. We are talking about 6 games dude. Hell, why not just go back and look at what you used in Phase 1. It's not that hard. You need two weeks? Easter is one day. Yes, the deadline happened to fall on Easter sunday, but unless you are like me and purposely procrastinate, you don't HAVE to wait until the deadline to get your shit done. You have been complaining soo much about all the different rules and all the "punishments". The league was made this way for a reason. Not to be mean to people or to hurt fair competition. It was made this way to keep things moving! It isn't an easy thing trying to motivate and coordinate actions with 30 something different people to try and make things happen on time. Thats why we have the 10 player list. So if you don't get your shit done in time, it doesn't delay the whole tournament. No one should have to chase down 30 something different people every week to prod you to send your games. It is YOUR responsibility to get it done if you want to be able to pick your maps with your specific teams. If you don't do it, It will be done for you, to keep everything moving. It's really not MUCH of a punishment. It is a solution to keep things from being delayed and to keep the weeks on the same schedule. It really isn't rocket science. You still get to play your games. If you can't keep up, find someone in your clan to help you. From what I read of your last post, It doesn't seem like you understand the format or rules of this tournament, since you keep saying you would accept the forfeit (there is no forfeit..just random games filled with random members of your clan from your list of 10 players). It also seems you didn't understand what Phase 2 is, and that Phase 1 was just the first round of the tournament. PAY ATTENTION. If you have stuff going on in real life and don't have time, don't sign up to be your clans contact!

[eddie2]

alt can i give you a list off problems i have seen so far.(there is not that many.)


2)on the start of each phrase each clan rep needs to be pmed telling them it has started. i don't know about other divisions but group 4 has had 2 clans miss the first deadline because we did not know it started.
[color=#FF0000]I was contacted 3 times. Once on April 1st by DJ, and again in the following 2 days from my Division Director. I had a full week to procrastinate before finally having to get my shit done. I wonder about the other 5 clans in your division, and the other 30 something clans in the tournament that got their stuff done on time too[/color]

you have just added to my arguement mate even though you think you have not. 3 times you got contacted. well i di not even get contacted once about it moving to phase 2. i have the post that states i was head contact and not one of the contacts you had was from wrpbj so that was a mistake i presume in myself not getting 1 pm. instead of a simple apology wrpbj went on the attack of how i act also after we had stopped talking about it bringing back up about me inviting a clan mod to the chats mainly as a independant witness that he kept on removing.

acc what was my rant there ?????????
now this is the part that gets me my clan "time" time was not my clan it was joshyboys and sorry i left time i think 3 weeks before they pulled out of the cl3. So that does not hold any ground in this arguement.

Last I knew Tournament organizers could refuse certain people from joining tournaments if they have had problems with the person in the past.

show me where i have any form of major arguement with wrpbj. because once again you will not find anything. so there was no valid grounds for refusing our entry as me first contact. and ps not 1 of the other organisers followed that rule and always pmed me.
so if you want to make this personal mate at least post accurate info and don't jump on the band wagon posting for wrpbj he knows he was in the wrong this time but still cannot man up and appologise for a mistake made. And this is a vital part of running a proper tourney and proberly why he never has and never will.

[pearljamrox2]

I haven't had a single conversation with RJ about this, I am posting my own words. He is a big boy, he can speak for himself and so can I.

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=442&t=148598&start=345#p3421758

There is your ACC rant since you were wondering. Had nothing to do with you and you were serving a Forum Ban at the time but you found a way to get your 2 cents in (even though it is against the rules to post for someone or have someone post for you when they are serving a Ban). You can't deny that you have a history of doing what you are doing right now.

This is what you posted a few post ago, a direct quote from you

eddie2 wrote:i am having a major refurb at the house so not really doing clan stuff. in these kinds of tourneys you need to contact the leaders when they start what if i was on holiday would we forfeit all the games because i was away for 2 weeks. you should not be punishing any clan unless they have had offical notification of the start date.

Maybe someone else should handle your clan stuff since you have things going on in real life and "you are not really doing clan stuff"

You also don't seem to know that the games are not forfeits here. They are just made random.

eddie2 wrote:yep i know i read that when i got the random games and clicked the link they proberly also don't know this has started. i don't even remember signing up for phase 2. but after checking see that i did 2 months ago.. like i said aka will take the forfeit but you will need to talk to the organisers because this is not organised.

You don't remember signing up for Phase 2? Phase 2 is the second round of this tournament! If you were paying attention to your responsibilities as your clans contact for this league, you would know that! And still unaware that you are not being made to forfeit any games, just have to play random.

Do you understand the point I am making. Instead of pointing the finger at the VOLUNTEERS who are helping to run this tournament with their own free time or expecting them to hold your hand every step of the way, you should probably just admit your own lack of attention to your responsibilities and keep that in mind in the future for the next time you decide you need to be the clan contact. You made such a big deal at the beginning of the league about being the primary contact, and you don't even bother to keep up with what you are suppose to be doing!

[eddie2]

that was not a rant in acc2.. 1 post of opinion is not a rant.

for cl4 yes i had a misunderstanding which me and dj teflon talked about i appologised but the misunderstanding of what event it was does not account dor no pm advizing of start.but i sent our away teams for phase 2. it was over had been dealt with. do you not understand that point mate let me say it quiet clear for you it was over and dealt with
then wrpbj removed bruce from the pms and started saying no participant is allowed to involve clan moderators in discussions which is a bullshit comment. and why was this done after it had been sorted i can only guess to bait myself. this bringing it all back up again so i removed aka do you get that 1.

you have already stated you recieved 3 pms all first contacts recieved at least 1 pm from dj teflon well aka did not get this as already admited by wrpbj i am aka first contact for this tourney. so my complaint was valid.. aka not getting a pm that all other clans got advizing of round 2 is valid. do you understand that.
so instead of saying sorry for the mistake wrpbj started personally attacking my personna. also telling me i had no right involving a clan moderator as he has no juristiction over this tourney. this is false he does have it... do you understand that.

also in his statement he is posting false info in the phrase thread.

he is out and he might even be banned for life in CLA events

cla events sorry when did this become a cla event. in the opening sign ups where several clans not stateing about the sign up period being over a public holiday and stating it should not be.
phase 2 also did several clans not state there should of been longer notice before creation of games also stating again it should not of been over a public holiday period. cla is a group of clan leaders if the clans are posting publicly that signups and other things are not correct in phase 1 then they should be changed and not done again in phase 2. if this is truly a cla event because these are the people who are running this war and wrpbj and djteflon are only reps carrying out what all clan leaders who are members want.

[josko.ri]

eddie2, I was also thinking about removing myself from such poor lead event from WPBRJ, but what is the point in this? with removing yourself you do exactly what WPBRJ wants, to put out of this event everyone who he dislikes, so this in any way is not harm to him and his leading of CL4.
I know top players from Div1 clans want a shot at KORT, so removing myself and maybe KORT would be harm to those clans who want shot at us, and would not be any harm to WPBRJ and his poor leadership. The same is for AKA, with removing your clan from CL4, all what you do is make a harm to LHHD, TNC, 1RFG, FOED, TLW, DBC and G1 who wish to play games and have fun vs all other clans from Div4, and do not wish to have bye weeks. also, signing out is big disrespect to other members of CL4 team who do their role excellent and are not guilty that WPBRJ ruined all the hard work that they were doing for months.

You see that many other clans are not satisfied with way of leading CL4...
viewtopic.php?f=438&t=168624&start=15#p3683965
viewtopic.php?f=438&t=168624&start=15#p3684028

... but regardless of that they will continue competition until the end, and will only consider future signing up for events like this. that is how good sports are acting, what you started you should finish and if you are not satisfied with leading of the event you are free to not sign up for new events of this type. but finishing what you started no matter of circumstances are minimal requirements what are expected from serious fair play competitors.

[Leehar]

Still, Eddie has a point in walking the talk. Not that I agree with him, but lots of people just talk the talk, but don't walk the walk. Eddie felt he had grievances that were disregarded or whatever, so he's putting his money where his mouth is and disassociating himself from the competition.
It's the same as those people who leave the site because they became dissatisfied. Again not something I really support, but it's an inevitable concomitant of unsavoury consumer relations.

Just as I feel all this unfortunate bashing on wpbrj for his deemed running of the event may cause him to retire from organising events or helping with the clan scene, so must we accept that people will refuse to participate in events if the management is deemed faulty. Both unfortunate situations, but it often seems that a lot of the time ego's and pride also gets in the way of engendering congenial relationships.

[eddie2]

although i agree with this the tourney was not being run fair josko the problems i seen where as follows.

1) no offense to these 2 clans war optinasi were added after the deadline these 2 clans had not completed any wars there was another couple of clans that did not meet the required entry to this but were not offered spaces.

2) the restrictions imposed on aka entry of me not being aka contact was against the rules of tourneys. and was done because there was no leader of the clan moderation to stop this but was done when 1 was appointed.

3) the start date of phase 2 and aka being penalised for not producing home games when we did not recieve the pm all other clans did recieve. our opponants in first round are ones we were classing as a possible win with a couple of clans we expected to lose against in the group. so it is a unfair start for aka. and we did not even get a appology for this instead we were told "we will not hold your hand."

4) i am vocal and wrpbj's constant baiting of me and me often rising to baits would cause more harm to aka if i was banned for a response. and i am not willing to be involved in a cup where 1 organiser is trying to bait a flame response which will result in a 1 month ban for me.

5) wrpbj stating that no member who is in disagreement with his final say have no right to contact the moderator in charge of making sure things run fair in the clan section. even disgussing normally until it is sorted with the moderator involved in the pm's then removing him after and giving crap for involving him.



so these last 3 parts are the reason and i think very valid reasons for removing aka from a totally disorganised event with one organiser causing the vast amount of problems because he is on a power rush.

[josko.ri]

eddie2, all those 5 points were fault of WPBRJ and his decisions. with your removing yourself you do not do harm to WPBRJ at all (he anyway wish that players who think opposite than him does not participate in "his" event).

you do harm to other 7 clans from Div4 to not be able play full event, and to other members of CL4 team who did their hard work to run this event. you should show some respect to all of them who are not guilty for WPBRJ's behaviour and his dictator ruling style (DJ Teflon, angola, Nicky15, tokle, benga, peanutsdad, merch313, alt1978.....) and at least finish this event. Think about it.

[eddie2]

eddie2, all those 5 points were fault of WPBRJ and his decisions. with your removing yourself you do not do harm to WPBRJ at all (he anyway wish that players who think opposite than him does not participate in "his" event).

you do harm to other 7 clans from Div4 to not be able play full event, and to other members of CL4 team who did their hard work to run this event. you should show some respect to all of them who are not guilty for WPBRJ's behaviour and his dictator ruling style (DJ Teflon, angola, Nicky15, tokle, benga, peanutsdad, merch313, alt1978.....) and at least finish this event. Think about it.

josko look at what you just said. there has been problems about how this has been handled since day 1. a couple of clans have raised concerns with no resolve i do respect the effort of the others involved but like what was said to me on sign up any disrespect shown to any other clans or other things aka would be removed. well since day one 1 organiser has shown disrespect to players and clan leaders in posts and responses and by what he said this is a cla event so cla should of removed the problem which obviously they are not going to do because they would have done it by now.. these other members who are polite in responses and don't victimise certain members should of got together and told him to stay out and work behind the scenes or removed him. if the clans that have been treated like this remove themselves then maybe they will step up appologise for his actions and get him working behind the scenes or remove him from the organiser position. like this present issue i had i did not involve him he was added to the convo by another organiser if he stayed out there would of been no problem. but he had to get involved.. aka will stand that while his is dealing with the affairs of this cup we will not take part.. it is now time to make a stand against the way he is treating players wanting to play a fair and fun war. and if the other clans who feel the same way about the way they have been treated take the same action as aka then they might put a hold on things deal with the problem and invite them clans back. or do you guys want this hassle for the next 12 months while it is being run as it is.