Keefie wrote:Indeed it does, but they're in in round 3, which is the last 64. So it's quite possible for Man Utd to draw Chelsea at that stage.
yeap, but that would like 1/4 of CC
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Keefie wrote:Indeed it does, but they're in in round 3, which is the last 64. So it's quite possible for Man Utd to draw Chelsea at that stage.
benga wrote:Keefie wrote:Indeed it does, but they're in in round 3, which is the last 64. So it's quite possible for Man Utd to draw Chelsea at that stage.
yeap, but that would like 1/4 of CC
Hteo sam pitati,zasto ne bi izvacili parove slicno kao u CL5?
Zasto svaki put mora 1 na 32 2 na 31?
Jednostavno na tvom primeru broj jedan (32)
-R1- prvi sesir timovi od 17 do 24 mesta--drugi sesir timovi od 25 do 32 mesta.Uparuje se tako sto se izvlace prvo jedan iz prvog sesira pa onda jedan iz drugog sesira,i tako dok se ne dobiju svi parovi. Interesantno i zanimljivo.
-R2-prvi sesir timovi od 9 do 16 mesta--drugi sesir pobednici iz R1, isti sistem izvlacenja kao u R1
-R3-prvi sesir timovi od 1 do 8 mesta---drugi sesir pobednici iz R2,isti sistem izvlacenja kao u R1
-R4- jedan sesir sa 8 pobednika iz R3 ,izvlace se cetvrtfinalni parovi
-R5- Polufinale , 4 pobednika is R4, izvlace se polufinalni parovi
-R6-Finale-dva pobednika iz R5
--------------------------------------
Mislim da ovo daje jos vecu sansu i slabijima da prodju sto dalje, a sa druge strane opet stiti ove jace iz prvih 8 da se sretnu tek u cetvrtfinalu, tako da i jedni i drugi imaju podjednake sanse za visok plasman, do sada u svim prethodnim, ipak su top klanovi imali vise privilegija, a sad ce svi imati podjednake sanse.
qwert wrote:interesting josko,, but can we arange some random placement in cup scheme? I mean why every time need to play 1 v32 -2 v 31?
qwert wrote
Hteo sam pitati,zasto ne bi izvacili parove slicno kao u CL5?
Zasto svaki put mora 1 na 32 2 na 31?
Jednostavno na tvom primeru broj jedan (32)
-R1- prvi sesir timovi od 17 do 24 mesta--drugi sesir timovi od 25 do 32 mesta.Uparuje se tako sto se izvlace prvo jedan iz prvog sesira pa onda jedan iz drugog sesira,i tako dok se ne dobiju svi parovi. Interesantno i zanimljivo.
-R2-prvi sesir timovi od 9 do 16 mesta--drugi sesir pobednici iz R1, isti sistem izvlacenja kao u R1
-R3-prvi sesir timovi od 1 do 8 mesta---drugi sesir pobednici iz R2,isti sistem izvlacenja kao u R1
-R4- jedan sesir sa 8 pobednika iz R3 ,izvlace se cetvrtfinalni parovi
-R5- Polufinale , 4 pobednika is R4, izvlace se polufinalni parovi
-R6-Finale-dva pobednika iz R5
Mislim da ovo daje jos vecu sansu i slabijima da prodju sto dalje, a sa druge strane opet stiti ove jace iz prvih 8 da se sretnu tek u cetvrtfinalu, tako da i jedni i drugi imaju podjednake sanse za visok plasman, do sada u svim prethodnim, ipak su top klanovi imali vise privilegija, a sad ce svi imati podjednake sanse.
josko transation
The format proposal can also be adjusted without hard fixed seeding. Maybe semi-random, top half of clans in every round to be seeded, and bottom half to be random paired with seeds.
Example (for 32 clans):
R1: seeds 17-24 clans. random paired 25-32 clans
R2: seeds 9-16 clans. random paired winners from R1
R of 16: seeds 1-8 clans. random paired winers from R2
QF: seeds 1-4 clans. random paired other 4
SF: seeds 1-2 clans. random paired other 2
To be more fair draw, pairings can be always done before any round starts with real time rank (updated results from previous round)
jetsetwilly wrote:I also like Josko's proposals. Definitely worthy of discussion.
chapcrap wrote:I do not think anyone should be given two rounds of byes. Especially 8 clans. That's a lot of clans that automatically make it to the top 16, IMO.
benga wrote:chapcrap wrote:I do not think anyone should be given two rounds of byes. Especially 8 clans. That's a lot of clans that automatically make it to the top 16, IMO.
according to F400 you would be no.8
IcePack wrote:benga wrote:chapcrap wrote:I do not think anyone should be given two rounds of byes. Especially 8 clans. That's a lot of clans that automatically make it to the top 16, IMO.
according to F400 you would be no.8
That in itself should tell you we aren't speaking out in our interests, but for a better clan area and event as a whole.
IcePack wrote:I don't think any of those proposals could be done on a challonge bracket site, without Dako doing his own.
Also, I just prefer simple. What's wrong w what has been done in the past? CL has changed every year. CC has been running smoothly and change very little. (because it works).
qwert wrote:IcePack wrote:I don't think any of those proposals could be done on a challonge bracket site, without Dako doing his own.
Also, I just prefer simple. What's wrong w what has been done in the past? CL has changed every year. CC has been running smoothly and change very little. (because it works).
well sometime you need to change system so that every clan have benefit. In previous cups, clans from 17 to 32 position have little chance , and all above have at least big chance for one medal award. Maybe you dont care for all these clans, because in old system you will have easy job for medal against 25 ranked team, but then what motive will have these clans to play in CC?
Give equal chance to all, then you will get bigger and stronger competition, these its what we all want to happen,right? Think about that.
IcePack wrote:qwert wrote:IcePack wrote:I don't think any of those proposals could be done on a challonge bracket site, without Dako doing his own.
Also, I just prefer simple. What's wrong w what has been done in the past? CL has changed every year. CC has been running smoothly and change very little. (because it works).
well sometime you need to change system so that every clan have benefit. In previous cups, clans from 17 to 32 position have little chance , and all above have at least big chance for one medal award. Maybe you dont care for all these clans, because in old system you will have easy job for medal against 25 ranked team, but then what motive will have these clans to play in CC?
Give equal chance to all, then you will get bigger and stronger competition, these its what we all want to happen,right? Think about that.
Not at all. I used to be in KOA, ranked 20th back then. When I first got into clans CC2 was in sign ups and I desperately wanted to be apart of it. Yes it was difficult but I thought the competition was fair, exciting, and fun. We couldn't join that year and finally signed up for CC3 1 year later. We were around 18th? And got knocked out first round. Guess what? It was still fun to be apart of the event.
There's nothing wrong w braket tournaments, many sports use them. And 1st plays last, 2nd plays second last, etc. it encourages you to work hard and move up the ladder fr next year of you don't want to be 32nd and playing #1 - do something about it during the off season!
All these random draws and make it fair and easy for clans to get thru to the next round do nothing to encourage competition, it encourages mediocrity and complacency because why work harder to go higher for next year, if you can just hope to get lucky on some stupid random draw and go further in the competition than you really should have.
Sorry I don't buy it. Lifes not fair, if you want something work for it. Earn it. The old stem worked fine and was simple, everyone could participate or choose not to - or run another event if they don't like how the cup was run. That's why there are other events and leagues w random draws etc. this was always designed and suppose to be a simple braket tournament.
IcePack
IcePack wrote:There's nothing wrong w braket tournaments, many sports use them. And 1st plays last, 2nd plays second last, etc. it encourages you to work hard and move up the ladder fr next year of you don't want to be 32nd and playing #1 - do something about it during the off season!
IcePack wrote:qwert wrote:IcePack wrote:I don't think any of those proposals could be done on a challonge bracket site, without Dako doing his own.
Also, I just prefer simple. What's wrong w what has been done in the past? CL has changed every year. CC has been running smoothly and change very little. (because it works).
well sometime you need to change system so that every clan have benefit. In previous cups, clans from 17 to 32 position have little chance , and all above have at least big chance for one medal award. Maybe you dont care for all these clans, because in old system you will have easy job for medal against 25 ranked team, but then what motive will have these clans to play in CC?
Give equal chance to all, then you will get bigger and stronger competition, these its what we all want to happen,right? Think about that.
Not at all. I used to be in KOA, ranked 20th back then. When I first got into clans CC2 was in sign ups and I desperately wanted to be apart of it. Yes it was difficult but I thought the competition was fair, exciting, and fun. We couldn't join that year and finally signed up for CC3 1 year later. We were around 18th? And got knocked out first round. Guess what? It was still fun to be apart of the event.
There's nothing wrong w braket tournaments, many sports use them. And 1st plays last, 2nd plays second last, etc. it encourages you to work hard and move up the ladder fr next year of you don't want to be 32nd and playing #1 - do something about it during the off season!
All these random draws and make it fair and easy for clans to get thru to the next round do nothing to encourage competition, it encourages mediocrity and complacency because why work harder to go higher for next year, if you can just hope to get lucky on some stupid random draw and go further in the competition than you really should have.
Sorry I don't buy it. Lifes not fair, if you want something work for it. Earn it. The old system worked fine and was simple, everyone could participate or choose not to - or run another event if they don't like how the cup was run. That's why there are other events and leagues w random draws etc. this was always designed and suppose to be a simple braket tournament.
IcePack
josko.ri wrote:IcePack wrote:There's nothing wrong w braket tournaments, many sports use them. And 1st plays last, 2nd plays second last, etc. it encourages you to work hard and move up the ladder fr next year of you don't want to be 32nd and playing #1 - do something about it during the off season!
My primary suggestion was format, semi-random draws was just secondary suggestion/option.
Reading your arguments, I found only this argument to be against proposed format (other arguments are more against random draw).
So to counter this argument... The proposed format still values all what you have earned during off season. it is still 17v32 in R1, and 1v[16v(17v32)] in R3. So the difference between "let it like it was" and "consider the proposal" is not about that ranking will not be used at all, all wil be randomized, past achievements wil not be valued. It is about giving much more equal playing field (and therefore much more interesting matches) for lower ranked clans. Higher ranked clans already have equal playing field, for them it happens in later rounds when they meet each other. But do the lowest ranked clans have equal playing field? With this format I think no. They are regularly losing sometimes with 30+vs10-. Those wars are not interesting to anyone, nor to winners nor to losers. Your KOA example was some equal playing field, if you were 18th, you faced 14th and it was for sure interesting match. If you consider number of clans that signed up for CL3/CL4/CL5 and compare it with number of clans signed to CC2/CC3 you will see that evrey time League had much more competitors. Go into analysis deeper and you will see which clans signed for CL but did not sign for CC. Those are clans from bottom of ranking. All top ranking clans participated in CC2/CC3. And if you try to find a reason for that, maybe it was wish to not be hard kicked in round 1 in non-enjoyable match for anyone. The main advantage of the proposed format is giving more equal playing field to wider range of clans, therefore making it more interesting for lower clans to sign in and have some equal field fight instead of being hard kicked in Round 1.
qwert wrote:IcePack wrote:qwert wrote:IcePack wrote:I don't think any of those proposals could be done on a challonge bracket site, without Dako doing his own.
Also, I just prefer simple. What's wrong w what has been done in the past? CL has changed every year. CC has been running smoothly and change very little. (because it works).
well sometime you need to change system so that every clan have benefit. In previous cups, clans from 17 to 32 position have little chance , and all above have at least big chance for one medal award. Maybe you dont care for all these clans, because in old system you will have easy job for medal against 25 ranked team, but then what motive will have these clans to play in CC?
Give equal chance to all, then you will get bigger and stronger competition, these its what we all want to happen,right? Think about that.
Not at all. I used to be in KOA, ranked 20th back then. When I first got into clans CC2 was in sign ups and I desperately wanted to be apart of it. Yes it was difficult but I thought the competition was fair, exciting, and fun. We couldn't join that year and finally signed up for CC3 1 year later. We were around 18th? And got knocked out first round. Guess what? It was still fun to be apart of the event.
There's nothing wrong w braket tournaments, many sports use them. And 1st plays last, 2nd plays second last, etc. it encourages you to work hard and move up the ladder fr next year of you don't want to be 32nd and playing #1 - do something about it during the off season!
All these random draws and make it fair and easy for clans to get thru to the next round do nothing to encourage competition, it encourages mediocrity and complacency because why work harder to go higher for next year, if you can just hope to get lucky on some stupid random draw and go further in the competition than you really should have.
Sorry I don't buy it. Lifes not fair, if you want something work for it. Earn it. The old system worked fine and was simple, everyone could participate or choose not to - or run another event if they don't like how the cup was run. That's why there are other events and leagues w random draws etc. this was always designed and suppose to be a simple braket tournament.
IcePack
well you wrong, simple to say, we are not change to be easy for clans ,but to give low ranked clans, in start opponent with equal strength. The thing what will be change its that High ranked clans will get 1 medal less then in previous cups, ofcourse if you realy thing that for your clan are very importan that in round 1 get easy medal defeating some clan with 35-6, ok you will vote against changes, but maybe you will change your mind and say " well ok, lets give first round to low ranked clans so that they play 21-20 one excitement match, and let best get medal instead me" .
Ofcourse if you belive that clans from top 8 or 16 need to take all medals from round 1 to Finale, then you will be against,,but for me ,i think that for top 8 clans take medal in QuarterFinal or Semifinal have much higer value,then medal earned in First round against top bottom clans, but maybe im wrong?
IcePack wrote:josko.ri wrote:IcePack wrote:There's nothing wrong w braket tournaments, many sports use them. And 1st plays last, 2nd plays second last, etc. it encourages you to work hard and move up the ladder fr next year of you don't want to be 32nd and playing #1 - do something about it during the off season!
My primary suggestion was format, semi-random draws was just secondary suggestion/option.
Reading your arguments, I found only this argument to be against proposed format (other arguments are more against random draw).
So to counter this argument... The proposed format still values all what you have earned during off season. it is still 17v32 in R1, and 1v[16v(17v32)] in R3. So the difference between "let it like it was" and "consider the proposal" is not about that ranking will not be used at all, all wil be randomized, past achievements wil not be valued. It is about giving much more equal playing field (and therefore much more interesting matches) for lower ranked clans. Higher ranked clans already have equal playing field, for them it happens in later rounds when they meet each other. But do the lowest ranked clans have equal playing field? With this format I think no. They are regularly losing sometimes with 30+vs10-. Those wars are not interesting to anyone, nor to winners nor to losers. Your KOA example was some equal playing field, if you were 18th, you faced 14th and it was for sure interesting match. If you consider number of clans that signed up for CL3/CL4/CL5 and compare it with number of clans signed to CC2/CC3 you will see that evrey time League had much more competitors. Go into analysis deeper and you will see which clans signed for CL but did not sign for CC. Those are clans from bottom of ranking. All top ranking clans participated in CC2/CC3. And if you try to find a reason for that, maybe it was wish to not be hard kicked in round 1 in non-enjoyable match for anyone. The main advantage of the proposed format is giving more equal playing field to wider range of clans, therefore making it more interesting for lower clans to sign in and have some equal field fight instead of being hard kicked in Round 1.
What's wrong with having less clans compete in a bracket tournament? Isn't that why CL exists to give more opportunity in a different way to all clans? Why does each format have to be as inclusive as possible? Lower clans can skip CC if they worry about being hard kicked in round 1 and practise in newcomer cup or CL. That's why those formats exist!
A bracket tournament is there to determine a winner. Again I emphasize if you want better chances or seeding, improve in offseason. Yes your format proposal is better than random draw but if 32 beats 17 by luck and gets into the area where it faces top clans now (1-16), they'll get hard kicked at that point. I'd much rather see it the way now, nobody wants to see 32 vs 1 in round 3 or 4 (wherever they'd meet in yours).
What's wrong w what's in place now? We still see interesting matches, some clans take a run at others. We still have upsets and look at OSA. CC3 they were seeded 24th! They improved and advanced - deservingly so! They beat the odds. They even made a run at KORT.
I just don't understand why try to reinvent the wheel. There are other formats to fit in other preferences, while this again - was made as a simple bracket tournament for any clan to participate in. Maybe - if there is enough demand - someone can go make the Fairness Cup where all clans are welcome to a bracket tournament where all seeds are random, or top clans get a bye and the lower half duke it out.
But this isn't the fairness cup. This is Conquer Cup. Let's keep it that way.
IcePack
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