[ACC Round 2] 1st Reg. v. AOD [25-24] of 51pts - Final

[Teflon Kris]

Violation of FOW rule.

12 hour Fog of War courtesy rule applies (unless otherwise agreed by both clans).

If rules are contravened, then the Tournament Organisers may determine that the offending team cannot score any victories from games concerned. If it is concluded that the offending clan have deliberately contravened rules to gain an advantage then the games concernd will be ruled as automatic victories for their opponents.

GG have violated the rule (where applicable to the map) 7 times in team games:

Game 9718975 AOD Won anyway
Game 9734213 GG close to winning
Game 9703281 - AOD Won anyway
Game 9703284 - GG won
Game 9703286 - GG won
Game 9703288 - AOD Won anyway
Game 9703292 - AOD Won anyway

This effectively means GG lose 4 points, and thereby hands the tie to GG - a sad end but rules are rules.

The first thread also states that clans can come to a mutual agreement about such things, but I cant see a solution as AOD have won the tie-breaker anyway.

This all came about from a discussion about deadbeating - which looks to be unintentional and therefore not a rule voiation in itself.

[General Brock II]

I believe that I have nulled this decision, at this point... DJ was slightly too hasty in posting. He should have conferred with we leaders before making a public statement.

Though I am going to hold him accountable for the following,

This all came about from a discussion about deadbeating - which looks to be unintentional and therefore not a rule voiation in itself.

edit: Treslie, I suppose I can see your viewpoint. However, I'm sure that you've noticed that we've been panicking a little about his absense? He's missed turns in a game v. TNC, and it looks like he'll doom us in the game, there... he's never nominated a sitter. We're actually a bit concerned about him, too... hope he's not had an accident or ended up in the Emergency room.

[alt1978]

I'm not sure that I'm following the conversation here...is aod making the argument that GG is gaining a strategic advantage from missing turns in a no spoils game and is trying to have the results of those games overturned? Or I am I completely off here and not following the jist of this conversation?

[General Brock II]

I'm not sure that I'm following the conversation here...is aod making the argument that GG is gaining a strategic advantage from missing turns in a no spoils game and is trying to have the results of those games overturned? Or I am I completely off here and not following the jist of this conversation?

That pretty much summed it up, alt. Jp is justified to raise a contention that Papaj might have intentionally deadbeated. But everyone agrees that PapaJ didn't intentionally deadbeat... And DJ agreed that no violation of the rules has occurred in this case. So on to the next issue (being the 12 hour rule contention).

[QoH]

Isn't the issue now that you violated the 12 hr fog rules in 7 games?

[kennys777]

I'm not sure that I'm following the conversation here...is aod making the argument that GG is gaining a strategic advantage from missing turns in a no spoils game and is trying to have the results of those games overturned? Or I am I completely off here and not following the jist of this conversation?

You are right in the facts of the conversation.
As for the ruling, well, regardless of intentional or not (which cannot be proved by hearsay regardless if everyone agrees on it to be perceived truth), the rule is:
"In spoils games, if a missed-turn or 'time out' appears to have deliberately occurred to gain an advantage, then the opposing team will be automatically awarded a victory for the game in question. In extreme circumstances, an appeal may be considered. Decisions will be at the discretion of the Tournamanet Organisers."

Now it says "spoils games" and since this game is a "no spoils" game, then it doesn't apply. However, on the Poker map, territory and bonuses are attributed to specific terrs held with no conformity to the map itself, which brings into question an anomaly or extenuating circumstance beyond the original rules.

Since the ruling has been made concerning this my argument is moot...Just clarifying the conversation a bit.

[kennys777]

Violation of FOW rule.

12 hour Fog of War courtesy rule applies (unless otherwise agreed by both clans).

If rules are contravened, then the Tournament Organisers may determine that the offending team cannot score any victories from games concerned. If it is concluded that the offending clan have deliberately contravened rules to gain an advantage then the games concernd will be ruled as automatic victories for their opponents.

GG have violated the rule (where applicable to the map) 7 times in team games:

Game 9718975 AOD Won anyway
Game 9734213 GG close to winning
Game 9703281 - AOD Won anyway
Game 9703284 - GG won
Game 9703286 - GG won
Game 9703288 - AOD Won anyway
Game 9703292 - AOD Won anyway

This effectively means GG lose 4 points, and thereby hands the tie to GG - a sad end but rules are rules.

The first thread also states that clans can come to a mutual agreement about such things, but I cant see a solution as AOD have won the tie-breaker anyway.

This all came about from a discussion about deadbeating - which looks to be unintentional and therefore not a rule voiation in itself.

And to be fair, I violated the FOW rules in Game 9703297 and I promptly corrected the situation by shedding light on it in chat, plus let the clock run out and did not deploy any troops.

[Baby-Bjorn]

Papaj did not intentionally deadbeat. Life happens and people miss turns. Yes it was a Poker Club game [which in my opinion is still a no spoils game], but since he did not intentionally deadbeat, no penalty or award should be given.

This was our first war using the 12 hour rule and there was a lot of confusion about it among our members. Many did not know what is was. When the problem surfaced, I took the lead on this and began informing our members what the rule was and how to apply it. I do not think there were any violations after I informed our members.

The violations in question were either obviated by AOD winning the games anyway [and thus no award or penalty should be given], or honest mistakes. I know the members who violated the rule and they are all honest, straightforward people. The violations were honest mistakes or misunderstanding of the rule. Therefore, no penalty or award should be given.

Violation of FOW rule.

And to be fair, I violated the FOW rules in Game 9703297 and I promptly corrected the situation by shedding light on it in chat, plus let the clock run out and did not deploy any troops.

And in this game, Agent 86 then applied the 12 hour rule to his turn and waited before taking his turn. I think that demonstrates the honesty and integrity that is prevalent in our membership.

[kennys777]

Papaj did not intentionally deadbeat. Life happens and people miss turns. Yes it was a Poker Club game [which in my opinion is still a no spoils game], but since he did not intentionally deadbeat, no penalty or award should be given.

This was our first war using the 12 hour rule and there was a lot of confusion about it among our members. Many did not know what is was. When the problem surfaced, I took the lead on this and began informing our members what the rule was and how to apply it. I do not think there were any violations after I informed our members.

The violations in question were either obviated by AOD winning the games anyway [and thus no award or penalty should be given], or honest mistakes. I know the members who violated the rule and they are all honest, straightforward people. The violations were honest mistakes or misunderstanding of the rule. Therefore, no penalty or award should be given.

Violation of FOW rule.

And to be fair, I violated the FOW rules in Game 9703297 and I promptly corrected the situation by shedding light on it in chat, plus let the clock run out and did not deploy any troops.

And in this game, Agent 86 then applied the 12 hour rule to his turn and waited before taking his turn. I think that demonstrates the honesty and integrity that is prevalent in our membership.

Okay there is a lot of information here to acknowledge...
1st, violations are violations and deserve penalties where they are proven to be, in fact, violations...Saying you didn't know, or sorry doesn't nullify penalties.

2nd, I said Poker Room was "no spoils" which does NOT violate the rules of the tournament.

3rd, "no violations of the 12 hour rule after you informed your members"?...If you notice the games and their start times, there is a considerable amount of time that passed from the first violation through the last violation...

Game 9718975 Game initialized 09/14/2011 Mr. CD starts 2 hours 15 min. after initialized
Game 9734213 Game Initialized 09/14/2011 Mr. CD starts 7 hours after initialized
Game 9703281 Game initialized 09/07/2011 Ianphull starts 11 hours 48 min. after initialized
Game 9703284 Game Initialized 09/08/2011 Agent 86 starts 42 min. after initialized
Game 9703286 Game Initialized 09/12/2011 Mr. CD starts 4 min. 42 sec. after initialized
Game 9703288 Game Initialized 09/12/2011 Vinzzz starts 18 min. after initialized
Game 9703292 Game Initialized 09/12/2011 Glandias starts 8 hours 57 min after initialized

Now are you saying that you could not disseminate the 12 hour fog rule information to your clan between 09/07 and 09/14? If you say that some people do not log in often enough, then tell me how Mr. CD violated the rule 3 times within a 3 day period 09/12-09/14?

4th, Agent 86 didn't have to wait, since the 12 hour rule is for people to take snapshots of the board before turns are taken. Since I opened the game, we had our snapshot, or at least our opportunity to take one, so that is a moot point.

5th, DJ had stated that 4 points were to be subtracted, which referred to the 2 games GG won. Your clan was not penalized for the games AOD won...

[Teflon Kris]

CORRECTION :

The FOW Rule breach is only relevent in this game:

Game 9703284

This means GG lose 1 point, making the score 22-22.

Violation of FOW rule.

12 hour Fog of War courtesy rule applies (unless otherwise agreed by both clans).

If rules are contravened, then the Tournament Organisers may determine that the offending team cannot score any victories from games concerned. If it is concluded that the offending clan have deliberately contravened rules to gain an advantage then the games concernd will be ruled as automatic victories for their opponents.

GG have violated the rule (where applicable to the map) 7 times in team games:

Game 9718975 AOD Won anyway
Game 9734213 GG close to winning
Game 9703281 - AOD Won anyway
Game 9703284 - GG won
Game 9703286 - GG won
Game 9703288 - AOD Won anyway
Game 9703292 - AOD Won anyway

This effectively means GG lose 4 points, and thereby hands the tie to GG - a sad end but rules are rules.

The first thread also states that clans can come to a mutual agreement about such things, but I cant see a solution as AOD have won the tie-breaker anyway.

This all came about from a discussion about deadbeating - which looks to be unintentional and therefore not a rule voiation in itself.

[codierose]

This was our first war using the 12 hour rule and there was a lot of confusion about it among our members. Many did not know what is was.

is this not the round 2 did you not use the 12 hour fog rule then ??

[Ickyketseddie]

I'm not going to get into details with you guys but if you were going to apply penalties for 12H rule violations that happened at the start of the war why wasn't the score updated or wasn't it dealt with untill now? Surely it should have been dealt with at the time, as with the singles match we posted too late. Ruling was given immidiately (we could not gain a point but AOD could if they won).

Bad form if nothing else to get to the end and then over turn the result.

CORRECTION :

The FOW Rule breach is only relevent in this game:

Game 9703284

This means GG lose 1 point, making the score 22-22.

If this is current does this mean your proposing another tie-breaker, or we still lose because AOD won the origianl tie break?

EDIT: Interestingly in the game you've quoted the initial move was posted anyway as soon as requested by the AOD rep. I thought this is acceptable if the rule is breached? I understand if i'm wrong however.

[jpcloet]

This is part of the problem that the CLA has been working on. There is no standard 12H Courtesy Rule definition. Everytime AOD's been asked/forced to use it, there have been problems of some sort. We were going to let the 12H violations slide until the Poker game essentially corrupted and decided the war which is not fair to either team. An advantage was gained, so I would have preferred the game to be voided. However, DJ indicated he would not do that, so our only avenue to create a fair outcome was to invoke the 12H rule violations.

DJ's ACC thread states a very generic, and has no reference to the current CLA definition which is not approved yet:

12 hour Fog of War courtesy rule applies (unless otherwise agreed by both clans).

Something this generic will be left to interpretations.

[Ickyketseddie]

Ah i understand what your saying about the definition. At least it is currently in discussion in the CLA to prevent further misunderstandings.

Well i guess its best for you Brock and DJ to get together and come to some sort of outcome and let us know what it is? We could all chip in with what 'WE' think is right but realisticly we're all gonna stick up for own own. I hope you guys just understand that we arn't using dirty tactics with missed turns, and we we're just un-experienced/un-disciplined with the 12H fog rule and I hope you guys can sort this with no animosity between our clans.

I'd also like to add that apart from this black cloud that has been brought over the war its been very enjoyable playing with you all. Thanks for some really tough games.

[kennys777]

I'm not going to get into details with you guys but if you were going to apply penalties for 12H rule violations that happened at the start of the war why wasn't the score updated or wasn't it dealt with untill now? Surely it should have been dealt with at the time, as with the singles match we posted too late. Ruling was given immidiately (we could not gain a point but AOD could if they won).

We have been noting it in almost every game it happened in. Oddly enough, mostly games with AgentSmith88, so he was very vocal about it.

[General Brock II]

This is part of the problem that the CLA has been working on. There is no standard 12H Courtesy Rule definition. Everytime AOD's been asked/forced to use it, there have been problems of some sort. We were going to let the 12H violations slide until the Poker game essentially corrupted and decided the war which is not fair to either team. An advantage was gained, so I would have preferred the game to be voided. However, DJ indicated he would not do that, so our only avenue to create a fair outcome was to invoke the 12H rule violations.

DJ's ACC thread states a very generic, and has no reference to the current CLA definition which is not approved yet:

12 hour Fog of War courtesy rule applies (unless otherwise agreed by both clans).

Something this generic will be left to interpretations.

JP, the 12 hours fog rule has been finalized... It really should be posted somewhere in the public forums. Both you and I have access to it, obviously.

In fact, of the votes "FOR", : "1st Reg/KOA/GR/OSA/AOD/RA/BSS/G1/TSM/Empire/VDLL/TNC/AKA/AOC/Myth/PIG/DB/Dynasty/nemisis

Both you and I voted for this rule (and it passed by a significant margin). As such, you've really got no grounds to contend it, now. You found it satisfactory, then, and it should be so, now.

The pertinent text is as follows,

"If the second team to join a foggy game also gets the first turn, they must hold their attack for 12 hours or until a member of the opposing team announces that they have taken their snapshot. Should that team accidentally break this agreement, then they will give all relevant information to their opponents in the game chat. eg. territories taken during the first turn, plus the owners of any other territory thrown into the fog as a result of the attack (Note that this does not necessarily include attack information). If all information is provided accurately after the accidental breaking of the agreement, absolutely no consequences shall result of the turn being taken early.

The agreement can be ignored, if the following conditions are met;
a) No borders are shared by both teams at the start. (Conquer Style Maps ie. Antartica, AoR I, AoR II, AoR III, Clandemonium, Feudal, Feudal Epic, Jamaica, King’s Court, Lunar War, Monsters, Peloponnesian War, Woodboro, WWII Poland)

b) If there is no intent to attack an enemy position, but to only drop, fort and leave, then the turn may be taken.

In short, the turn may be taken, if the enemy will not be losing a territory and are still able to see the map as it was on the original setup"

Secondly, Italianipastido posted the remedial measures in the Arms Race match. As Kenny did in the British Isles game, Italiani posted what Agent deployed and what he forted.

And eddie's right... If it had been let go in the past, it shouldn't rightfully be trumped up, now. In fact, in the courts, if a past accusation has failed to draw a penalty, then an individual can't be prosecuted for that same accusation, again.

Thanks, Kenny, for your input.

[Leehar]

Still, that 12h rule hasn't been put into practice yet, so we're all still working off DJ's version which inexplicably states the correct procedure to follow. Just because there wasn't anything on the missed turns, doesn't mean the current applicable scenario with the fog turns can't be applied

[Ickyketseddie]

Leehar, in the original Thread for the ACC I just see "12 hour Fog of War courtesy rule applies (unless otherwise agreed by both clans)."

Can you point me in the direction of the correct procedure your reffering to?

Also i realise its in a different cup but you seemed to be of the opposite oppinon in the THOTA vs. TSM match where this came up (see below quote). I'm curious why you see this differently since we also posted all the relevent information as soon as it was requested by AOD. (Unless of course you direct me to this procedure and this is rendered null )

Those games are ok thats risk. BUT

Make bamboo again please , we have no snapshot. Follow the rules.

Not again guys.

Why are you so vehement in asking for game recreation fh?

FoW rule

Fog Rule:

If the second team to join a foggy game also gets the first turn, they must hold their attack for 12 hours or until a member of the opposing team announces that they have taken their snapshot. Should that team accidentally break this agreement, then they will give all relevant information to their opponents in the game chat. eg. territories taken during the first turn, plus the owners of any other territory thrown into the fog as a result of the attack (Note that this does not necessarily include attack information).

The rule can be ignored, if the following conditions are met;

a) No borders are shared by both teams at the start, such as Poland, Feudal, AoR, Woodboro etc.

b) If there is no intent to attack an enemy position, but to only drop, fort and leave, then the turn may be taken.

In short, the turn may be taken, if the enemy will not be losing a territory and are still able to see the map as it was on the original setup.


Once the second team to play, have their snap, they will announce it in the chat, so that the game can commence.

A breach of the rule will NOT result in the game being forfeited, unless; on game completion (when the fog is lifted), it shows that the information given, was incorrect.

It is also good practice (not obligatory), to have any clan member leave a reminder of the rule in the gamechat, once they see the game has started. Plus, for the clan leader to post a reminder on the clan forum.

Also, if the game is part of a tournament (created with privs), “12hr” could be included in the gaming label, eg “Home games, batch 2, 12hr rule applies”.

Com did say: 2011-10-10 10:21:52 - Commander62890: I took Sao Yok and Tamadju. Tennaserim is mine (red).

What else do you need? (unless he didn't tell about other terr. he possibly had surrounding it?)

[jpcloet]

The 12H rule in the ACC is not the same as the CLA's definition, and one should not jump to that conclusion with faulty logic.

The only reason we are talking about the rule is because DJ won't void the Poker game, and made very weak allowances for you guys showing up late to games. You did not get penalized in any way previously and still have not. DJ gave you guys so much leeway, and then AOD gets screwed on a deadbeat. I had to play a 1v1 where you could not win, but I had to win to get the point. I still won even with that.

It pains me that a war has to come down to a decision like this. It's crap like this that means more an more clans are sitting out events, I'd rather play real wars where we controls the rules like timing out etc. The fact that you jumped to the conclusion that you won based on Poker and the letter of law is what gets me more. You are responsible for you clan members actions (better or for worse). That game should be voided IMO.

[Leehar]

Yeah, jpc has it right, in both cases I'm supporting following the actual procedures already given in the competition then trying to bring in somewhat more arbitrary or external ones

Leehar, in the original Thread for the ACC I just see "12 hour Fog of War courtesy rule applies (unless otherwise agreed by both clans)."

Can you point me in the direction of the correct procedure your reffering to?

Also i realise its in a different cup but you seemed to be of the opposite oppinon in the THOTA vs. TSM match where this came up (see below quote). I'm curious why you see this differently since we also posted all the relevent information as soon as it was requested by AOD. (Unless of course you direct me to this procedure and this is rendered null )

Those games are ok thats risk. BUT

Make bamboo again please , we have no snapshot. Follow the rules.

Not again guys.

Why are you so vehement in asking for game recreation fh?

FoW rule

Fog Rule:

If the second team to join a foggy game also gets the first turn, they must hold their attack for 12 hours or until a member of the opposing team announces that they have taken their snapshot. Should that team accidentally break this agreement, then they will give all relevant information to their opponents in the game chat. eg. territories taken during the first turn, plus the owners of any other territory thrown into the fog as a result of the attack (Note that this does not necessarily include attack information).

The rule can be ignored, if the following conditions are met;

a) No borders are shared by both teams at the start, such as Poland, Feudal, AoR, Woodboro etc.

b) If there is no intent to attack an enemy position, but to only drop, fort and leave, then the turn may be taken.

In short, the turn may be taken, if the enemy will not be losing a territory and are still able to see the map as it was on the original setup.


Once the second team to play, have their snap, they will announce it in the chat, so that the game can commence.

A breach of the rule will NOT result in the game being forfeited, unless; on game completion (when the fog is lifted), it shows that the information given, was incorrect.

It is also good practice (not obligatory), to have any clan member leave a reminder of the rule in the gamechat, once they see the game has started. Plus, for the clan leader to post a reminder on the clan forum.

Also, if the game is part of a tournament (created with privs), “12hr” could be included in the gaming label, eg “Home games, batch 2, 12hr rule applies”.

Com did say: 2011-10-10 10:21:52 - Commander62890: I took Sao Yok and Tamadju. Tennaserim is mine (red).

What else do you need? (unless he didn't tell about other terr. he possibly had surrounding it?)

[murphy16]

I don't see how you can call in unintentional, Mr. CD had someone take his turn, so how is it that in a clan battle one man happens to dead beat and no one look after him, unintentional or not, it's very fishy and not a good way for a new clan to gain a good rep.

[General Brock II]

Yeah, jpc has it right, in both cases I'm supporting following the actual procedures already given in the competition then trying to bring in somewhat more arbitrary or external ones

Leehar, in the original Thread for the ACC I just see "12 hour Fog of War courtesy rule applies (unless otherwise agreed by both clans)."

Can you point me in the direction of the correct procedure your reffering to?

Also i realise its in a different cup but you seemed to be of the opposite oppinon in the THOTA vs. TSM match where this came up (see below quote). I'm curious why you see this differently since we also posted all the relevent information as soon as it was requested by AOD. (Unless of course you direct me to this procedure and this is rendered null )

Those games are ok thats risk. BUT

Make bamboo again please , we have no snapshot. Follow the rules.

Not again guys.

Why are you so vehement in asking for game recreation fh?

FoW rule

Fog Rule:

If the second team to join a foggy game also gets the first turn, they must hold their attack for 12 hours or until a member of the opposing team announces that they have taken their snapshot. Should that team accidentally break this agreement, then they will give all relevant information to their opponents in the game chat. eg. territories taken during the first turn, plus the owners of any other territory thrown into the fog as a result of the attack (Note that this does not necessarily include attack information).

The rule can be ignored, if the following conditions are met;

a) No borders are shared by both teams at the start, such as Poland, Feudal, AoR, Woodboro etc.

b) If there is no intent to attack an enemy position, but to only drop, fort and leave, then the turn may be taken.

In short, the turn may be taken, if the enemy will not be losing a territory and are still able to see the map as it was on the original setup.


Once the second team to play, have their snap, they will announce it in the chat, so that the game can commence.

A breach of the rule will NOT result in the game being forfeited, unless; on game completion (when the fog is lifted), it shows that the information given, was incorrect.

It is also good practice (not obligatory), to have any clan member leave a reminder of the rule in the gamechat, once they see the game has started. Plus, for the clan leader to post a reminder on the clan forum.

Also, if the game is part of a tournament (created with privs), “12hr” could be included in the gaming label, eg “Home games, batch 2, 12hr rule applies”.

Com did say: 2011-10-10 10:21:52 - Commander62890: I took Sao Yok and Tamadju. Tennaserim is mine (red).

What else do you need? (unless he didn't tell about other terr. he possibly had surrounding it?)

Okay, according to that logic, we could cede Arms Race to AOD, even though Italiani remedied the situation. Then AOD can cede British Isles (Game 9703297) to us. Both Kenny and Italiani did what I believe to be proper procedure in the course of starting a turn before 12 hours. That rule has been accepted since at least March of this year (when Namor commenced working on an official CLA rule). The situation would therefore remain the same (though odd) and GG wins.

And why should DJ trump up a verdict that opposes the rules - The "Letter of the law"? It is on our side, regardless.

I'm open for remaking all seven of those games, if need be. In fact, if it ends dispute, I encourage it. Maybe we can have them finished within the week. It would relieve a lot of pressure for DJ. We've indubitably placed him into a difficult situation, and I feel sorry for the chap.

If the 12 hr rule is defined in a generic fashion, does that not generally mean that the official CLA rule is the accepted standard?

[kennys777]

The situation would therefore remain the same (though odd) and GG wins.

You would love to believe that poker room is in your column...That's a shame that you are that arrogant, I hope your dice continue to fail as they did this past round so you can take your medicine...

[jpcloet]

If the 12 hr rule is defined in a generic fashion, does that not generally mean that the official CLA rule is the accepted standard?

Again, No, you are jumping to a conclusion.

We should replay poker only. Can you manage to get all players in and not have one deadbeat again, or would you need a replacement player?

[friendly1]

Craziness!

Hey Everyone, I've had a blast with this tourney (and bananas to Icky for his comments, great attitude!!!). There are any number of ways to express an opinion regarding this but maybe we should all take a breath and see what comes down from DJ. It is his tournament, he has set the rules that apply and will interpret the application of the rules. Rules from elsewhere, peoples opinions, possible resolutions are really rather negligible right now.

For GG - you were outside of the tournament rules on joining games, multiple fog rules and there are questions surrounding a deadbeat. Deal with it.

For AOD - you were also outside of the tournament rules on a fog rule, and you have lost the match on points. Deal with it. Also, comments or replies made here need to be polite or not posted! Come on guys...

Either way, DJ will let everyone know what the final decision is. For myself I'll support whatever the outcome and thank DJ for running a really exciting and enjoyable competition. Totally fun event, don't let the small stuff take away from it.

And screw you dice gods!! heh, karma says I'm easy points for the next week after that comment