Letter to the Clans of CC

[niMic]

I find the narrative that the top clans are somehow the dissidents in all of those really amusing. Obviously someone has worked very hard at promoting it. Let's not forget that CCup ran just fine for three iterations, and it was the complaining and threats to abandon the tournament of (some of) the lower ranked clans that led to this whole situation. If this didn't end up the way you wanted, you only have yourself to blame.

[eddie2]

I find the narrative that the top clans are somehow the dissidents in all of those really amusing. Obviously someone has worked very hard at promoting it. Let's not forget that CCup ran just fine for three iterations, and it was the complaining and threats to abandon the tournament of (some of) the lower ranked clans that led to this whole situation. If this didn't end up the way you wanted, you only have yourself to blame.

lol was it not the complaints from top ranked clans (namely josko ri your clan buddy) that got this event taken out of dakos hand. and this was at the hands of (bruceswar) a clan member of the same clan as you and josko. so plz do not try and pull that one.

[niMic]

I will say that unseeded competition are what dreams are made of, just ask Ronnie Radford.

Funny you should bring that up.

Hereford had played several ties versus more evenly matched opponents before Newcastle were even entered into the competition. In fact, their tie was the first one which Newcastle had to play in. How does that say anything about random versus seeding? If anything the situation is damn close to what josko's suggested format would lead to, with the lower ranked clans (Hereford) playing one or two ties alone, before potentially facing the top ranked clans (Newcastle) high on confidence from their earlier, more evenly matched ties.

[crispybits]

I find the narrative that the top clans are somehow the dissidents in all of those really amusing. Obviously someone has worked very hard at promoting it. Let's not forget that CCup ran just fine for three iterations, and it was the complaining and threats to abandon the tournament of (some of) the lower ranked clans that led to this whole situation. If this didn't end up the way you wanted, you only have yourself to blame.

Nope, this started when Dako asked for suggestions for improvement at the request of higher ranked clan members and people gave them. The CDs (mostly higher ranked clan members) then took it off him and really opened up the field. Neither of those were anything to do with lower ranked clans. One lower ranked clan has said they will not enter at one point when the decision was thought to have been finalised, but this is very different to the top ranked clans threatening to pull out en masse, as was hinted (and not particularly subtly) at during the voting process in CDF, and in a totally different ball park to some clans acting to undermine the voting process so badly it had to be abandoned.

[crispybits]

I will say that unseeded competition are what dreams are made of, just ask Ronnie Radford.

Funny you should bring that up.

Hereford had played several ties versus more evenly matched opponents before Newcastle were even entered into the competition. In fact, their tie was the first one which Newcastle had to play in. How does that say anything about random versus seeding? If anything the situation is damn close to what josko's suggested format would lead to, with the lower ranked clans (Hereford) playing one or two ties alone, before potentially facing the top ranked clans (Newcastle) high on confidence from their earlier, more evenly matched ties.

That's not seeding (guaranteeing a team an easy draw), that's byes (allowing a team to enter in a later round), and there is a big difference between how the two work.

[freakns]

I find the narrative that the top clans are somehow the dissidents in all of those really amusing. Obviously someone has worked very hard at promoting it. Let's not forget that CCup ran just fine for three iterations, and it was the complaining and threats to abandon the tournament of (some of) the lower ranked clans that led to this whole situation. If this didn't end up the way you wanted, you only have yourself to blame.

dude, there would be no problems at all if josko didnt start crying "who is Dako to lead this. he will favor TOFU, kme kme, i feel butthurt"(although CCup3 started when Chuck was in TOFU and everyone agreed(well, everyone except josko) that TOFU got the hardest draw of all).
you do understand that Dako took over CCup3 when Chuck left? you also do realize everyone but josko was OK with it?(josko was questioning Dakos integrity... he does that to everyone who is beating him? is this why he was so eager to call me a liar without single proof, because he knows id beat his sorry ass as i already have?) you do know that it was bruce who took over the organization from Dako?
so maybe you should address all the issues on KORT forum before blaming low level clans?

sole reason for all the shit that has happen is in the hands of CDs. you can pitch it however you like, but it was CDs who screw things up and now they are trying their best to blame others.

[niMic]

Oh, okay. So you're saying you guys are all completely fine with running CC4 exactly as we've ran CCs 1 through 3? For some obscure reason I got a very different impression from all of the whining going on in all of the relevant threads, but I'm glad we both agree that we should just go back to how things were.

Splendid.

[niMic]

I will say that unseeded competition are what dreams are made of, just ask Ronnie Radford.

Funny you should bring that up.

Hereford had played several ties versus more evenly matched opponents before Newcastle were even entered into the competition. In fact, their tie was the first one which Newcastle had to play in. How does that say anything about random versus seeding? If anything the situation is damn close to what josko's suggested format would lead to, with the lower ranked clans (Hereford) playing one or two ties alone, before potentially facing the top ranked clans (Newcastle) high on confidence from their earlier, more evenly matched ties.

That's not seeding (guaranteeing a team an easy draw), that's byes (allowing a team to enter in a later round), and there is a big difference between how the two work.

Yes, but it still makes the example irrelevant. Hereford did have to play one of the top teams around, which they would have to in a seeded system. How is that any different from LotZ playing TOFU in round 1? (random example). If they beat TOFU, as Hereford beat Newcastle, it will be seen as one of the best achievements in CCup history.

[crispybits]

No, we're saying that it wasnt lower ranked clans that started this, and it wasnt lower ranked clans who undermined the process so badly it had to be abandoned. So you can take your fantasy narrative about this all being the "fault" of lower clans, shine it up real nice, turn it sideways ...... and file it under "D" for "Delusion"

And the example is made relevant, because with a seeding system at the time Hereford wouldn't have faced mid-table Newcastle, they would have faced championship contenders Derby, Leeds or Liverpool or something like that. They got to face a team that weren't on good form because of the random draw, instead of playing a team high on confidence and sweeping away any team put in front of them.

Seeding is one issue, byes are another. While most people didn't go for the josko/qwert system, there were not the same objections to giving limited byes, especially for clans still in CC3, as there was for seeding.

[eddie2]

The timing was a bit off, Dakos pm was ready to go but it didn't go until 10 mins after, we have already apologized to him, it took some coordinating having admins and us online at the same time. It just so happened Dako came online at the same time or it would not have been an issue. Also Ok the wording was wrong we stated to Dako and and qwert that being a member of CDF was mandatory or we simply couldn't make the events democratic.

Also although it bears no real difference here. Dako agreed to work with us in the beginning and did to an extent, then after Foxgloves post he removes Cds from the equation without any consultation with us or communication. Not that that s an excuse for him getting a pm, he was getting one, but his actions were just as bad.

As for qwert, we had so much input with him, but we left him some control. Or what would be the point of him running it. As for Dako making changes, it was far from clear if these would be the changes the clan world wanted or the ones he thought were best. Surely you can see that.

Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Sent: Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:23 pm
by eddie2
nicky i am a bit pissed now but being a member of cdf was not a requirement being eligible for cdf was though.... which is totally different...

i only had what i seen in public to go by and frankly yes take control of it and pm him first to let him know it before posting publicly that was out of order.... and that is probably why i will not take any part of any of these 2 events again....

like i do respect the clan mod department but i cannot respect someone who removes a person from running something without telling them first...

also remember the issue i had with qwert opening the thread before votes were finished someone in the mod department said he had full control and could not stop him from sign ups when ever he wanted... at the end of it dako had not opened sign ups but delayed the sign up stage to finalize everything so it could of changed..

Re: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Sent: Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:17 pm
by Nicky15
Subject: CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

Eddie you really do not have your facts straight. I am going to reply to you in privately, as we do not wish to post publicly against Dako out of respect.

1st of all when Dako took on CC4 we told him we wanted to oversee. The CL and Cup are our two main events and admin was keen we made them Official as clans devote nearly a year to these comps. Making them Official lets us give prizes and gives us the power to grant additional runners up medals. You are well aware of the issues in the clan league. Organizers sometimes make bad choices when they are left to make unregulated decisions, you yourself have been a victim of a bad TO. We have made a promise to the clan world that our two main comps will be overseen. And we will no longer allow bad organisers who only think they are right, and think they have the power to abuse people, change rules and make decisions that only they agree with. These comps are too important and effect too many people. We need TOs that will work with us. And having the CDs involved means if anything happens to the TO we are ready to step in straight away and take over without causing our events disruption.

qwerts CL has been fully overseen by us. The CDs helped him with most aspects. We were in constant communication with him during the set up. Please read the format of the CL and you will see that being a member of CDF is a requirement, and that the league is overseen the the CD team.

Although you might not agree clans deserve a say on the two main comps they play, we do. The CD team is trying its level best to make the Clan world a democracy. Giving clans a voice to vote on issues rather than any one person or the CD team making all the decisions. Wherever possible we want Clans themselves to decide. We won't apologize for this.

When we agreed that Dako could take CC4 we said we would need some involvement. All we asked for was that being a member of CDF was a requirement and that the hard fought for timing out rule was left. That was a huge issue before, and clans fought hard for it. The only other thing we asked him was that if he wanted to make any changes that he let clans decide on what they wanted. We don't think any one person has the right to go into a format and pick and choose the rules they like, throwing out things the don't agree with without consulting clans first. It was not his tournament, he did little toward the last Cup apart from baby sit the closing stages. We made no other demands we said as long as he represented the clan worlds best interests that he was free to decide everything else. He didn't need to get permission to post anything from us, i have no idea where you get your information.

At first Dako was cooperating with us. We were never heavy handed with him, we were pleasant and tried to compromise. But after Foxgloves post he totally bypassed us, took out the things we asked for and tried to take the comp completely on his own. So then could do whatever he wanted.

Although we hoped Dako would run the Official cup for us, unfortunately he was very defiant all the way along. We wanted clans to have a say and he did not. His attitude worried us, he repeatedly told us he knew best, and he would decide if he consulted with consult with clans or not, the one vote was a compromise he didn't even want to do that.

Now like i said before these two comps are the clan world. We need them to fair, and have good people running them. People who want the best for the Clan world and people who do not have such a big ego to think only they know best. that's a worrying situation down the track. We need TOs that will work with Cds, all the CDs want is whats best for everyone, nothing else.

After Dako publicly removed the two things we asked for, admin and The Cds felt we had little choice left. People stated that if we want to oversee the event then we should run it, so that was really the only choice we had left.

We really hoped we could work with Dako but it seems not. Please understand if this was his tournament then we would not have got involved at all. But i wasn't it has never belonged to him and belongs to the clan world now.

I am also not saying Dako is a bad TO or will make bad decisions or abuse people, i am referring to what has happened in the past. The only reason we had to take this was he refused to work with us at all. And his attitude caused us concern.

so what was said here have the clan mods not done the exact same as to what they took this event of dako for..

[chapcrap]

I will say that unseeded competition are what dreams are made of, just ask Ronnie Radford.

Funny you should bring that up.

Hereford had played several ties versus more evenly matched opponents before Newcastle were even entered into the competition. In fact, their tie was the first one which Newcastle had to play in. How does that say anything about random versus seeding? If anything the situation is damn close to what josko's suggested format would lead to, with the lower ranked clans (Hereford) playing one or two ties alone, before potentially facing the top ranked clans (Newcastle) high on confidence from their earlier, more evenly matched ties.

That's not seeding (guaranteeing a team an easy draw), that's byes (allowing a team to enter in a later round), and there is a big difference between how the two work.

Yes, but it still makes the example irrelevant. Hereford did have to play one of the top teams around, which they would have to in a seeded system. How is that any different from LotZ playing TOFU in round 1? (random example). If they beat TOFU, as Hereford beat Newcastle, it will be seen as one of the best achievements in CCup history.

When I was in a low ranked clan (KOA) I relished the idea of how CCup was put together because I knew there was no way that we would get a war with a top ranked clan, like TSM, outside of that competition. Sadly, we lost in Round 1 against MD, but the idea of getting to face clans we otherwise would not get to face is what I loved.

[Vid_FISO]

I will say that unseeded competition are what dreams are made of, just ask Ronnie Radford.

Funny you should bring that up.

Hereford had played several ties versus more evenly matched opponents before Newcastle were even entered into the competition. In fact, their tie was the first one which Newcastle had to play in. How does that say anything about random versus seeding? If anything the situation is damn close to what josko's suggested format would lead to, with the lower ranked clans (Hereford) playing one or two ties alone, before potentially facing the top ranked clans (Newcastle) high on confidence from their earlier, more evenly matched ties.

That's not seeding (guaranteeing a team an easy draw), that's byes (allowing a team to enter in a later round), and there is a big difference between how the two work.

Yes, but it still makes the example irrelevant. Hereford did have to play one of the top teams around, which they would have to in a seeded system. How is that any different from LotZ playing TOFU in round 1? (random example). If they beat TOFU, as Hereford beat Newcastle, it will be seen as one of the best achievements in CCup history.

Hereford played 6 ties before facing Newcastle in the Cup that year, they were on a "run" it was Newcastle's first match in the competition. Top seed/ clan vs one of the lower/ weaker seeds/ clans in the first round draws no comparison whatsoever. It's also a very different game and I fail to see why drawing examples from football has any bearing on anything, well, apart from the organizational shambles that even the FA, at it's worst, has struggled to match.

I believe that I am the only clan leader to say publicly that we are not prepared to enter a competition where we are on a hiding to nothing, so no idea where all the rest of the BS has come from in the multiple pages and threads that have sprung up in the meantime. For those that set so much store on personal ranking points, clan rank and clan medals, you're so good that you obviously deserve them, you just won't be getting them off us!

[freakns]

Oh, okay. So you're saying you guys are all completely fine with running CC4 exactly as we've ran CCs 1 through 3? For some obscure reason I got a very different impression from all of the whining going on in all of the relevant threads, but I'm glad we both agree that we should just go back to how things were.

Splendid.

was this referred to me?
if so, i too am glad we understand each other, and that bruce and his company should step out and let capable ppl of running CCup. i just have a question, have you said to your democratic leader how badly he is screwing things up?
and to make myself more clear, my whining wasnt about CCup format, it was and is about CDs and their actions.

[eddie2]

Oh, okay. So you're saying you guys are all completely fine with running CC4 exactly as we've ran CCs 1 through 3? For some obscure reason I got a very different impression from all of the whining going on in all of the relevant threads, but I'm glad we both agree that we should just go back to how things were.

Splendid.

was this referred to me?
if so, i too am glad we understand each other, and that bruce and his company should step out and let capable ppl of running CCup. i just have a question, have you said to your democratic leader how badly he is screwing things up?
and to make myself more clear, my whining wasnt about CCup format, it was and is about CDs and their actions.

This i feel is the main problem i think. really Who cares what the format would be, nearly every clan or player is going to bitch about it in some way me included. but they would still take part in it because at the end of it, it is the ccup clans would threaten not to take part but they still would because this is the biggest event in the clan world... What i think is the main problem is the way clan moderation has handled this taking the event because of 1 or 2 members bitching about the format from dako without prior contacting him. promising the clan world a vote for format then changing the vote then saying stuff it all this is what we are doing which was totally the opposite of what the clan worlds vote had said they wanted... then saying that clans were to blame for it all... then adding clans that would not qualify for the event under there rules of the cd and friends and demanding clans join there user group to take part and even after saying democracy is not correct they are still demanding they join to take part..

i think clan mods should sit back read every thing that has happened and give a proper apology to the clan world for there actions (not blame us for it) offer dako this event back to run (which i think we all know what he will say) then maybe thing can move forward because i think at present 70 percent of clans are disgusted at how the clan moderators have acted not at the final result of what has been put up.

[jsnyder748]

I dont care how it is run. Or who I have to play.

I also dont care for all this crap. The internet turns all you nice people into....

Just move on with it. Clans are supposed to be fun. Competetive yes, but more so for the thrill of victory and teammwork. (I feel like a high school basketball coach)

If you would like to fight about this more be my guest, but you aren't going to do anyone any favors, including yourself, by fighting about this. Nothing will be done about this unless you act civil and try to figure out a way to work together to vote on what should happen. If one party feels it should go one way and another party wants the tournament to head the opposite way then split up and make 2! If you aren't willing to do the work for that then dont demand so much from the people who spend so much time trying to please us all.

In summation "calm the eff down!" And try to remember this is online risk....

p.s. eddies post ^^ is a pretty good start...

[Chariot of Fire]

Lots of good quotes spring to mind:

1. "What we've got here is a failure to communicate" Cool Hand Luke, 1967

2. “You can please some of the people some of the time, all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time.” Abraham Lincoln.

3. “I don’t know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody.” Bill Cosby

#1 can apply to the process that we've just witnessed, behind closed doors amongst a group of individuals wishing to do well but failing to uphold the verdict of the democratic process they tried to implement.

#2 is a simple truth and should be borne in mind whenever one tries to implement change.

#3 exemplifies what has happened here and highlights the need for a firm, fair hand to take control of the situation. A 'benevolent dictator' if you will (the best form of governance).

All I have witnessed is a lot of bickering as the clock inexorably ticks by, but with few alternative proposals being put forward where we can find a common ground.

Let's look at the issues that trouble the majority of clans who wish to participate:

i) The granting of byes to top-seeded clans is unfair. I agree, let's dispense with it
ii) The structure of the draw pitting top-seeded clans against the weakest opposition is too biased. I agree, let's do away with that system
iii) The timing-out rule should apply and be punitive. I personally disagree, but think this should be up to the two clans to negotiate between themselves, as with every other challenge that has gone before.
iv) The tournament should be run by one TO, with the CDs on-hand to act as arbitrators in the event of any dispute not covered by the rules and to apply any punitive measures for breaches thereof.

So, I'm going to stick my neck on the line here and try to get something positive happening. If the responses are favourable then we've got ourselves a tournament and the CDs can appoint a TO to run it (or people stand for election and we vote on a TO). But at least let's try and get something going. If it doesn't work, fine, at least I tried. If it does - great, we're all meeting on common ground. I believe the best way for anything to get done is for it to be overt - in the open for all to see. That way we can see who is in, who is out, who abstains, etc.

=======<cut here>========================================================================<cut here>========

Proposal for CC4

1. The Top 4 seeds are put in different quarters of the draw
2. The other 28 names will be drawn entirely randomly
3a. If a start date is desired this month the clans still playing the previous edition of the cup receive a bye (easy rule to carry forward into future editions and has nothing to do with seeding), OR
3b. If a delay of approx 3 months is acceptable, all participating clans start in Round 1 (after the previous edition of the Cup has been decided)

If your clan agrees in principle with Points 1-3 above please copy this part of the post (from below the line) and add your name to the list. I can see no reason why this isn't an acceptable format for everyone - and some clans may be very conspicuous by their absence.

1. TOFU

[josko.ri]

freakns, after showing your personality as being a true liar by saying "i will not vote again on any issue. not me, not any other member of Otpisani." and then after several days saying "my clan and i have voted every single time for every question thats been raised." and then saying that I accuse you without a single evidence while in fact I presented the strong evidence, I do not care to counterargument your multiple lies and flames followed in upcoming posts. Finally, when I was saying pure truth (that I will make 7-0 score in batch 3 vs TOFU) you were the one who attacked me hard for saying that true statement. Obviously, you better treat the ones who are telling lies than the ones who are telling truth, so I let be like that if that makes you happy, but I will not give attention to your liar/flaming posts anymore. I rather give attention to persons who prefer truth over lies

////// back on topic //////

I really hope keefie or someone has still got that PM chain and can send it over to you because then you will see just how far from the actual truth you are.

Glad to oblige mate.

Josko, please take care to read the second pm. I think you'll agree that no attempt has been made to coerce or manipulate other clans. I won't post any of the replies as it's not for me to reveal publicly other peoples private messages, but I can assure you that they contained nothing sinister.

The only attempts to manipulate / corrupt the vote came from Top 16 clans. I won't name them but they know who they are.

25th March - PM 1 sent to all clan leaders for clans not in the top 16.

Hello Everyone,

I'm writing to you all as the CD&F clan reps for clans who are currently outside of the top 16 in the F400 rankings.

This week there will be a vote in the CD&F regarding the seeding and draw format for the CC Conquerers Cup 4. As it stands at the moment it looks like we will be given three options to vote on (see below).

As I see it, options 1 & 3 both give the top clans a major advantage over all of us. Option 1 was used in CC3 and only 3 lower ranked clans made it into the last 16. Option 3 gives the top clans an even greater advantage in that they don't enter the competition until the later rounds. Why on earth should they have that advantage !!!!!!!

The only option that give our clans a realistic chance of progression through the rounds and a chance of getting a win or two under our belts, as well as a stab at a top 3 spot, is option 2.

The random draw is used successfully in cup competitions throughout the world in many major sports. Yes top teams can face each other in early rounds and minnows can progress further, but that adds to the romance and excitement of these competitions.

VOTE Option 2 if you don't want your clan to be Cannon Fodder for the top teams.

Best Regards
Keefie


29th March - PM 2 Same address list plus CD's are copied.

Hi Everyone,

Well looks like the arguments are continuing in both of the threads

Sadly some of the top clans including The Pack and Immortal Assassins are threatening to withdraw completely from this competition and set up their own if Option 2 wins the vote. If they do, then I'm positive that others will join them and CC4 will never happen. I for one really don't want that to happen.

Option 2 isn't wanted by the high ranked clans and option 1 isn't wanted by most of us who have voted so far. Therefore it looks like a compromise must be reached.

That leaves option 3, which was suggested by Josko.Ri of KORT. This option combines an element of randomness in the early draws plus there is seeding. I personally think that having 16 seeds in a competition that will most likely have between 30 and 40 entries is too many. 20 to 25% of the field being seeded is quite normal in most sporting competitions so I would propose that only the top 8 clans are seeded. The Headless Horsemen are prepared to change our vote, so I thought it only fair to inform you all of our intentions.

Take another look at Option 3a and see if you agree that it's a compromise that can be made in order to save the competition and a split in clan land.

Best Regards
Keefie

Great that you presented this tio public, now we all know how the cards were dealt. I will explain what you in essence did.

Situation 1: Keefie is playing in 8 player standard game. He realize he can win it, but for the win he needs to make alliance with some other player(s). He then think "If I put alliance proposal in public game chat, then other players will also see that and there is chance they will make counter alliance and screw my plan. It is better for me to send secret pm to my potential allies so my chances will grow up". Then Keefie send pm to his potential allies saying "hey, if we make alliance and work together in that game, that is good for both you and me, do you agree to be with me in the game" and he get reply "yes, sure". On the same time, other 6 players are trying to play by rules and make their alliance agreement in chat of the game, while Keefie and his ally is making their strategy plan using pms. How this will end? Keefie and his ally will be guilty for SECRET DIPLOMACY.

Situation 2: Keefie realize his preferred option can win in the voting process, but for the win he needs to make alliance with some other players who has voting power. He then think "If I put alliance proposal in public thread organized by CDs with purpose of discussion about voting proposals, then players who are opposing my idea will also see that and there is chance they will make counter alliance or construct counter arguments against my idea which will be stronger than my arguments and possibly screw my plan. It is better for me to send secret pms to my potential allies so my chances will grow up. Then Keefie send pms to his potentional allies saying "hey, if we make alliance and work together in this voting process, that is good both for you and me, do you agree to be with me in the voting process so we can win by having more than 50% supporters?" and he get reply "yes, sure". On the same time, other clan representatives are trying to play by rules and make their arguments and proposals in public thread which is officially organized by CDs to serve as discussion place, where everyone is equally allowed to put arguments and counter arguments, to say why they think their idea is better than other ideas, while Keefie and his alliances are making their pact behing the scenes.

My point is, in essence, situation 1 and situation 2 are exactly the same doings. You had official place (public thread) which is provided by CDs to put all ideas there, but you rather chose hidden channels to make your agreements. Totally the same like when you have official place in 8 player standard games (game chat) to put your ideas there, but you rather choose sending pms and therefore do secret diplomacy.

I will provide put examples how Keefie is speaking with arguments:

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=443&t=187980&p=4115754#p4115754
Can someone name me a sporting competition where 50% of the field are seeded ?

UEFA Champions League, Qualifying rounds 1,2,3. UEFA Europa League Qualifying rounds 1,2,3,4. FIFA World Cup Qualifiations, Elimination round..... Now when I answered your question, can you give example of any sports competition where draw is tOtally random?

He asked, I answered, then I counter-asked and he disappeared. Very democratic discussion,isn't it? You see, I tried to speak by arguments, gave direct answer to his question, and put direct question to him, on which he did not care to answer and make the discussion representative. I know, it was more chance to him to act secretly than to defend his ideas in public.

Second example. Keefie put his argument why he thinks nobody should vote for my options, and I put counter argument, that is how democracy is working, both opposing sides are telling their arguments.
viewtopic.php?f=443&t=187980&p=4112231#p4112231

Josko, think about it. Why would a clan outside of the top 16 in the F400 vote for an option that gives a preferential draw to the top 16. You could have dressed your idea in a frock and called it Mary but it was never going to win.

viewtopic.php?f=443&t=187980&start=90#p4112347

And guess what happened, Keefie escaped from the democratic discussion instead of put his counter arguments and make discussion representative to everyone. Now I see where he disappeared, instead of discuss where is place to discuss, he was rather using secret channels where only his argument is heard and other players do not have chance to counter on his opinions. Very proficient secret diplomacy I must say.

As conclusion, in democracy persons both obligations and rights. Obligations are to play their campaign on representative way, and that campaign is made equal to everyone, that everyone has equal chance to present his idea and equal treatment to defend his idea. Who did his obligations on proper way, he has right to ask for his rights. Keefie and company did not do their obligations to play the voting process on fair way but they rather used non democratic secret channels, so that is why they do not have right to ask for using voting result which is product of secret diplomacy and backstabbing. I am glad that secret diplomacy is presented to everyone to see it. I am glad CDs realized what is happening behind the scenes and decided to rule over that which was all but no democracy.

[josko.ri]

Fast Edited after seeing CoF post. THAT is democracy, he put his idea on place where everyone can see it, so everyone has chance to agree/disagree officially give him support (by putting their clan name together with his clan name). If he did the same in secret pms, that would be all but no democracy. And that is what Keefie did.

My counter argument on COF's post... there were months and months of discussions about format proposals, and now after 2 rounds of voting were done and after format is decided, you come with revolution idea. Where have you been all those months?
In my opinion he is just using situation that lower clans are right now revolted. That can lead to easy convince any lower clan to support right now his idea because his idea has more random element than current idea proposal, so lower clans who were supporting random draw will for sure now stand together with him. Not because they think his idea is the best, but because of personal bias against CDs, so whatever is presented to them and is not CDs idea they would support.

[Keefie]

You really do have a warped view of reallity mate

[josko.ri]

You really do have a warped view of reallity mate

You see, when it happens to be some discussion with arguments, then you are capable of just writing a sentence out of context. However, when it comes to your secret diplomacy behing the scenes, then you proved to be very capable of constructing convincing arguments.

Still asking you, how it is different to play in 8 player standard game and send secret pm to other player to support your strategy, or participate in democratic voting which has public place to discuss ideas, but you choose to do it by sending secret pms instead?

[Chariot of Fire]

Fast Edited after seeing CoF post. THAT is democracy, he put his idea on place where everyone can see it, so everyone has chance to agree/disagree officially give him support (by putting their clan name together with his clan name). If he did the same in secret pms, that would be all but no democracy. And that is what Keefie did.

My counter argument on COF's post... there were months and months of discussions about format proposals, and now after 2 rounds of voting were done and after format is decided, you come with revolution idea. Where have you been all those months?
In my opinion he is just using situation that lower clans are right now revolted. That can lead to easy convince any lower clan to support right now his idea because his idea has more random element than current idea proposal, so lower clans who were supporting random draw will for sure now stand together with him. Not because they think his idea is the best, but because of personal bias against CDs, so whatever is presented to them and is not CDs idea they would support.

You can counter all you like, but first I recommend you do some research before jumping in with accusations of spontaneous revolution, as if I've just dreamt-up this proposal:

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=443&t=187980&p=4116317&hilit=chariot#p4116182

Me...I want to be proactive and see some progress. Where do you stand on this? The voice of dissent (as usual) no doubt, simply muddying the waters. Either be constructive or go off and study some rocks or something.

[josko.ri]

Fast Edited after seeing CoF post. THAT is democracy, he put his idea on place where everyone can see it, so everyone has chance to agree/disagree officially give him support (by putting their clan name together with his clan name). If he did the same in secret pms, that would be all but no democracy. And that is what Keefie did.

My counter argument on COF's post... there were months and months of discussions about format proposals, and now after 2 rounds of voting were done and after format is decided, you come with revolution idea. Where have you been all those months?
In my opinion he is just using situation that lower clans are right now revolted. That can lead to easy convince any lower clan to support right now his idea because his idea has more random element than current idea proposal, so lower clans who were supporting random draw will for sure now stand together with him. Not because they think his idea is the best, but because of personal bias against CDs, so whatever is presented to them and is not CDs idea they would support.

You can counter all you like, but first I recommend you do some research before jumping in with accusations of spontaneous revolution, as if I've just dreamt-up this proposal:

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=443&t=187980&p=4116317&hilit=chariot#p4116182

Me...I want to be proactive and see some progress. Where do you stand on this? The voice of dissent (as usual) no doubt, simply muddying the waters. Either be constructive or go off and study some rocks or something.

Yeah, great, the post you quoted is 31st March, so still is my question where have you been all the time of the discussion? I have been in discussion of the format from beginning. You came afterwards when you saw that lower clans are revolted and now want to get them in so called democratic way to support your side, while actually you want to use their revolting position to support you against CDs.

You ask me where I stand on this. Here is answer: I stand on the side that CDs made the best possible decision for given circumstances of secret diplomacy and backstabbing which occurred during voting process. They for sure found better solution than Dako wanted because voting showed many of players want random while Dako proposed no random in his official idea, and they for sure found better solution than which has been voted by manipulated votes behind the scenes. They found a very nice mid ground and I support them in it. also notice that I who proposed something else am now saying they did the best possible. If I think only about my own ass and do not think reasonably an openly for negotiations, then I would say that only my option is good and every other including this are bad, like many others are speaking.

[eddie2]

Dako had not put his final draft up.....

also cd's did not kick dako off the organizing of this event because he put that style format out they kicked him out because he did not agrre that clans must join cdf but was going to go with meet the requirements of cdf (like all other events done with cla ) and did not include the timing out rule (which in all essence only really affects the nuc spoil option) ..

[Chariot of Fire]

You're talking out of your arse. I've had enough of your slanted bullshit. "You came afterwards blah blah blah". What do you think I'm trying to gain exactly Josko? Has it ever entered that thick skull of yours that there's no great motive for me or my clan to go with my proposal other than to try and get this tourney off the ground? I didn't agree with Dako's proposal but I would have gone with it as the authority at that time was invested in him. Same with the CDs, I don't wish to undermine anybody here but simply want to put forward what I believe to be the fairest solution to a far-reaching problem that to-date hasn't been resolved. No more vote A or B or C - just a platform on which many might agree on and from which a tournament can arise.

I'm putting you on foe after I post this. I find you the most despicable creature I have ever had the misfortune to meet online and I no longer wish to partake of your poison.

[Keefie]

You really do have a warped view of reallity mate

You see, when it happens to be some discussion with arguments, then you are capable of just writing a sentence out of context. However, when it comes to your secret diplomacy behing the scenes, then you proved to be very capable of constructing convincing arguments.

Still asking you, how it is different to play in 8 player standard game and send secret pm to other player to support your strategy, or participate in democratic voting which has public place to discuss ideas, but you choose to do it by sending secret pms instead?

I had already made my views known in both threads.