THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

[Bruceswar]

So, someone from the number 1 clan wants a bye and says it is good for lower ranked clans to let him have it? How does anyone buy that? I really can't believe lower ranked clans are buying into it.

If you are ranked 20th, how does it help you to give other clans byes? Giving 8 byes can even add another round to the tournament, meaning that you actually have to win more wars to win the whole competition. If you don't think you can beat a top clan, then just vote for one round of randomization and no byes. Randomizing more than once is pointless.

Do low rank clans really want to play wars where they have little to no shot? Seems like the lower ranked clans are saying no they do not. With Josko's idea they have a chance to play a closer match and maybe win before they meet the big bad bullies up top. Sure fallen wants to take on all, but many clans are voicing they are tired of being punching bags.

[benga]

OSA has beaten BOFM while they were ranked 5, OSA was then around ranked around 30.

bofm may have been in top 10, but I don't remember them ever being inside the top 5?

Not sure if anyone noticed that, but OSA was one of few clans that have beaten a +1200 F400 pts clan, only 3 or 4 other clans had a best record like that and all of them were in top 5.

BOFM was that high in Semptember 2011 I think.

Anyway back to discussion.

I like the setup that is right now, where every round is harder then the last, last year OSA needed to win every round a top 10 clan to win title and this was the best way for us.

I just love the hard way, where every win is hard earned, but I am just competitive like that.

I am just waiting for voting in our forum to finish so I cast OSAs vote.

Also when josko is reffering us as 24 seed, this is correct as far CC3 was considered, but we were 28 or 29 by F400, it's hard to put us objectively in ranking cause we just play too many games and are bound to lose more then others, especially cause there is big difference for us if the ranking was just taken for 1 year results.

We look forward to CC4, in the end there is only one winner, if you want a medal for winning the war you can always setup a side challenge with whom you want.

cheers!

[niMic]

So, someone from the number 1 clan wants a bye and says it is good for lower ranked clans to let him have it? How does anyone buy that? I really can't believe lower ranked clans are buying into it.

If you are ranked 20th, how does it help you to give other clans byes? Giving 8 byes can even add another round to the tournament, meaning that you actually have to win more wars to win the whole competition. If you don't think you can beat a top clan, then just vote for one round of randomization and no byes. Randomizing more than once is pointless.

Anyone who thinks a low ranked clan is going to win the CC is wrong. And if they could with random, they could with the seeded options as well, only their win would mean more. Either way, that is not what it is about.

Despite what you think, not everyone only thinks of themselves. Joskos suggestion will give lower ranked clans more even competition, more wins (medals), probably more fun than playing TOFU and then playing again in a year.

[Arama86n]

So, someone from the number 1 clan wants a bye and says it is good for lower ranked clans to let him have it? How does anyone buy that? I really can't believe lower ranked clans are buying into it.

If you are ranked 20th, how does it help you to give other clans byes? Giving 8 byes can even add another round to the tournament, meaning that you actually have to win more wars to win the whole competition. If you don't think you can beat a top clan, then just vote for one round of randomization and no byes. Randomizing more than once is pointless.

I think you might be being a little unfair to Josko here. I beleive that he is sincere about his trying to work out the best solution for the lower ranked clans, and I believe him to be right when he thinks there are low ranked clans who don't think it's the highlight of the year to be steam-rolled by Empire or AoC in round 1.
BUT, I will add, that I'm sure there are low ranked clans who are happy to face KoRT or TOFU in a competition like CC, for the simple reason that they would never get the chance otherwise... so the issue is complicated.
At the end of the day you can't make everyone happy.

[Qwert]

So, someone from the number 1 clan wants a bye and says it is good for lower ranked clans to let him have it? How does anyone buy that? I really can't believe lower ranked clans are buying into it.

If you are ranked 20th, how does it help you to give other clans byes? Giving 8 byes can even add another round to the tournament, meaning that you actually have to win more wars to win the whole competition. If you don't think you can beat a top clan, then just vote for one round of randomization and no byes. Randomizing more than once is pointless.

Im not from no1 clans and mine proposition are that high ranks get bye. You are from fall and now you insist that you play against clans from 25 to 32 place, and motive for these its very low--to get easy medal. And you think that all low ranked clans ,consider history of CCup, where clans from 25 to 32 place have zero chance to move to round 2, will vote to play classic bracket ,where 1st play against 32 and 2nd play against 31 etc,etc.
You are very wrong.

[IcePack]

So, someone from the number 1 clan wants a bye and says it is good for lower ranked clans to let him have it? How does anyone buy that? I really can't believe lower ranked clans are buying into it.

If you are ranked 20th, how does it help you to give other clans byes? Giving 8 byes can even add another round to the tournament, meaning that you actually have to win more wars to win the whole competition. If you don't think you can beat a top clan, then just vote for one round of randomization and no byes. Randomizing more than once is pointless.

Im not from no1 clans and mine proposition are that high ranks get bye. You are from fall and now you insist that you play against clans from 25 to 32 place, and motive for these its very low--to get easy medal. And you think that all low ranked clans ,consider history of CCup, where clans from 25 to 32 place have zero chance to move to round 2, will vote to play classic bracket ,where 1st play against 32 and 2nd play against 31 etc,etc.
You are very wrong.

Our motive is NOT easy medals. By the time this starts FALL will drop to 12th. That means we face 21st, 5th, 4th, 1st, and then 2nd. There are much better options for us for easy medals than asking for the previous seeding if all we wanted was extra medals.

[chapcrap]

So, someone from the number 1 clan wants a bye and says it is good for lower ranked clans to let him have it? How does anyone buy that? I really can't believe lower ranked clans are buying into it.

If you are ranked 20th, how does it help you to give other clans byes? Giving 8 byes can even add another round to the tournament, meaning that you actually have to win more wars to win the whole competition. If you don't think you can beat a top clan, then just vote for one round of randomization and no byes. Randomizing more than once is pointless.

Do low rank clans really want to play wars where they have little to no shot? Seems like the lower ranked clans are saying no they do not. With Josko's idea they have a chance to play a closer match and maybe win before they meet the big bad bullies up top. Sure fallen wants to take on all, but many clans are voicing they are tired of being punching bags.

And the only way to do that is to give byes? False.

[niMic]

All you offer is accusations and complaints, no solutions or suggestions.

[chapcrap]

All you offer is accusations and complaints, no solutions or suggestions.

False again.

I already said randomize the first round with no byes.

[jetsetwilly]

I posted this in the vote thread but it's better off here.

I also agree with ViperOverLords suggestion that option 2 could be split into two options.

2a) Random draw every round

2b) Random draw for the play in and round of 32 that will determine the bracket for the rest of the tourney.

If 2 wins maybe we can have a follow up vote on this.

Ok as we are going around in circles a little now, I want to bring back this discussion from earlier on which to me looks like a reasonable compromise.

Given everything that has been said and done this looks it might be a reasonable compromise to offer if random does win the vote.

It does not move the competition a million miles away from what it's always been. It simply adds a little spice to round 1.

We aren't going to get to a perfect place here but does this seem like an option that both "factions" could get behind ?

[Qwert]

So, someone from the number 1 clan wants a bye and says it is good for lower ranked clans to let him have it? How does anyone buy that? I really can't believe lower ranked clans are buying into it.

If you are ranked 20th, how does it help you to give other clans byes? Giving 8 byes can even add another round to the tournament, meaning that you actually have to win more wars to win the whole competition. If you don't think you can beat a top clan, then just vote for one round of randomization and no byes. Randomizing more than once is pointless.

Im not from no1 clans and mine proposition are that high ranks get bye. You are from fall and now you insist that you play against clans from 25 to 32 place, and motive for these its very low--to get easy medal. And you think that all low ranked clans ,consider history of CCup, where clans from 25 to 32 place have zero chance to move to round 2, will vote to play classic bracket ,where 1st play against 32 and 2nd play against 31 etc,etc.
You are very wrong.

Our motive is NOT easy medals. By the time this starts FALL will drop to 12th. That means we face 21st, 5th, 4th, 1st, and then 2nd. There are much better options for us for easy medals than asking for the previous seeding if all we wanted was extra medals.

Well in mine proposition , place 12 have bye in round 1,, and play in round 2 against one winner from round 1,, so i dont know how you can predict who you play?

[niMic]

I posted this in the vote thread but it's better off here.

I also agree with ViperOverLords suggestion that option 2 could be split into two options.

2a) Random draw every round

2b) Random draw for the play in and round of 32 that will determine the bracket for the rest of the tourney.

If 2 wins maybe we can have a follow up vote on this.

Ok as we are going around in circles a little now, I want to bring back this discussion from earlier on which to me looks like a reasonable compromise.

Given everything that has been said and done this looks it might be a reasonable u$compromise to offer if random does win the vote

It does not move the competition a million miles away from what it's always been. It simply adds a little spice to round 1.

We aren't going to get to a perfect place here but does this seem like an option that both "factions" could get behind ?

I honestly don't see how random first makes it any better. It can still generate very uneven brackets. If you want an alternative random, it should rather be the other way around, with a later round randomized.

[IcePack]

So, someone from the number 1 clan wants a bye and says it is good for lower ranked clans to let him have it? How does anyone buy that? I really can't believe lower ranked clans are buying into it.

If you are ranked 20th, how does it help you to give other clans byes? Giving 8 byes can even add another round to the tournament, meaning that you actually have to win more wars to win the whole competition. If you don't think you can beat a top clan, then just vote for one round of randomization and no byes. Randomizing more than once is pointless.

Im not from no1 clans and mine proposition are that high ranks get bye. You are from fall and now you insist that you play against clans from 25 to 32 place, and motive for these its very low--to get easy medal. And you think that all low ranked clans ,consider history of CCup, where clans from 25 to 32 place have zero chance to move to round 2, will vote to play classic bracket ,where 1st play against 32 and 2nd play against 31 etc,etc.
You are very wrong.

Our motive is NOT easy medals. By the time this starts FALL will drop to 12th. That means we face 21st, 5th, 4th, 1st, and then 2nd. There are much better options for us for easy medals than asking for the previous seeding if all we wanted was extra medals.

Well in mine proposition , place 12 have bye in round 1,, and play in round 2 against one winner from round 1,, so i dont know how you can predict who you play?

What are you talking about? That makes no sense.

You said, our desire for the original CC1-CC3 format is because we want easy medals.
I said, it has nothing to do with easy medals. Using the original CC1-CC3 bracket, than this is who we would face and they aren't "easy medals".

It has nothing to do with your proposal. Please read what is written before making stupid statements like this.

[ahunda]

I posted this in the vote thread but it's better off here.

I also agree with ViperOverLords suggestion that option 2 could be split into two options.

2a) Random draw every round

2b) Random draw for the play in and round of 32 that will determine the bracket for the rest of the tourney.

If 2 wins maybe we can have a follow up vote on this.

Ok as we are going around in circles a little now, I want to bring back this discussion from earlier on which to me looks like a reasonable compromise.

Given everything that has been said and done this looks it might be a reasonable compromise to offer if random does win the vote.

It does not move the competition a million miles away from what it's always been. It simply adds a little spice to round 1.

We aren't going to get to a perfect place here but does this seem like an option that both "factions" could get behind ?

In our clan-internal vote, we had a pretty even split between option 1 (the old system = seeding the top clans, maybe randomising the lower ranked clans) & option 3 (the bye system), and not a single vote for an all-random system.

Should option 2 indeed make the race, we´d need to take another vote, if we want to participate at all then, and I´m not sure, how this would turn out. Might depend on the other top clans, and there is already talk, that a couple of them won´t participate under such a system.

I personally feel bullied by the lower ranked clans here. And am of a mind to simply boycott this event & even take an offensive approach of getting in touch with other top clans to organise a separate tournament, that puts emphasis on skill & competition instead of luck & random.

[IcePack]

ahunda - that opinion is shared by quite a few.

[Foxglove]

Should option 2 indeed make the race, we´d need to take another vote, if we want to participate at all then, and I´m not sure, how this would turn out. Might depend on the other top clans, and there is already talk, that a couple of them won´t participate under such a system.

I personally feel bullied by the lower ranked clans here. And am of a mind to simply boycott this event & even take an offensive approach of getting in touch with other top clans to organise a separate tournament, that puts emphasis on skill & competition instead of luck & random.

I agree with all of that, ahunda! Perhaps if we were to have a separate tournament Dako would be willing to run it.

Here's another argument against option 2: I don't believe that it gives the lower ranked clans any higher chance of winning the entire event. They *might* get lucky and progress farther than the would under the other systems, but eventually they will come up against a top clan. A top clan is going to win the cup, no matter what seeding or draw format is used.

But - if you are a top clan, I think the all random draw lowers your chances of winning the tournament.

So I feel like option 2 is the worst of all choices. It doesn't increase the odds of a lower ranked clan to win, and it decreases the chances of any specific higher ranked clan to win the tournament.

[ahunda]

Well, the flaws of the random draw should be obvious to anyone:

a) We risk getting totally one-sided brackets. Clan A having to beat 4 Top 10 clans to get to the finals, Clan B having to face not a single Top 10 clan to get to the same finals.

b) Under the old seeding system, opposition & challenges were getting increasingly tougher & tighter from round to round. With a random draw this would be completely, well, random: We might have seed #1 against seed #2 in the very first round then.

I am not opposed to change per se, and I am more than willing to accommodate justified concerns of lower ranked clans, but a complete random draw is such an extreme change to the original format, that it turns this event into an entirely different tournament. And not for the better.

We have had years of debates in the clan world about increasing the skill factor and decreasing the luck factor, wherever possible. And now the main clan tournament is supposed to be *spiced up* by adding luck & random elements ?

Perhaps if we were to have a separate tournament Dako would be willing to run it.

If this is, how all of this turns out, I am pretty sure, for which tournament IA will sign up ...

[IcePack]

Yes there is talk behind the scenes about a top 16 event in the works...

[crispybits]

I've asked this in CDF aswell, but does the seeding argument boil down to either or both of these, and am I missing something? (just trying to crystallise the exact points in a concise way rather than the long posts where it can be difficult to distill the exact point being mande)

1) Tradition - it's always been this way and it shouldn't change now
2) Achievement - to win the competition you should have to fight the top clans, a random easy draw devalues the achievement

[Vid_FISO]

Yes there is talk behind the scenes about a top 16 event in the works...

So effectively "they" do want to skip the first couple of rounds of the "traditional" format? Makes sense, why waste a couple of months eliminating the lesser clans when they can simply be excluded in the first place.

[IcePack]

Yes there is talk behind the scenes about a top 16 event in the works...

So effectively "they" do want to skip the first couple of rounds of the "traditional" format? Makes sense, why waste a couple of months eliminating the lesser clans when they can simply be excluded in the first place.

No, "they" want to skip the random crap that the lower clans are trying to vote in. Makes sense, why put up with a garbage system if you guys are unwilling to consider what your doing to the actual event.

[Vid_FISO]

Yes there is talk behind the scenes about a top 16 event in the works...

So effectively "they" do want to skip the first couple of rounds of the "traditional" format? Makes sense, why waste a couple of months eliminating the lesser clans when they can simply be excluded in the first place.

No, "they" want to skip the random crap that the lower clans are trying to vote in. Makes sense, why put up with a garbage system if you guys are unwilling to consider what your doing to the actual event.

On neither thread have I advocated a full random draw, although I have mentioned it as very widely accepted method of running a cup comp in global sports. Personally I remain in favour of the tennis type bracket (that has been ignored as a suggestion by the powers that be) or the josko/ qwert suggestion, but without the first round pot thing.

[chemefreak]

Yes there is talk behind the scenes about a top 16 event in the works...

So effectively "they" do want to skip the first couple of rounds of the "traditional" format? Makes sense, why waste a couple of months eliminating the lesser clans when they can simply be excluded in the first place.

The vote is going well for random. If it wins the vote I have trouble seeing how anyone will be able to change it. The top 20% of clans will have to deal with the fact that us other 80% exist.

[niMic]

On neither thread have I advocated a full random draw, although I have mentioned it as very widely accepted method of running a cup comp in global sports.

I'm curious, how many global sporting competitions use a completely random draw? Certainly none that I follow, although I can't rule it out completely.

[niMic]

Yes there is talk behind the scenes about a top 16 event in the works...

So effectively "they" do want to skip the first couple of rounds of the "traditional" format? Makes sense, why waste a couple of months eliminating the lesser clans when they can simply be excluded in the first place.

The vote is going well for random. If it wins the vote I have trouble seeing how anyone will be able to change it. The top 20% of clans will have to deal with the fact that us other 80% exist.

But the thing is, they won't have to. This might sound like a petty "our own tournament, with blackjack and hookers" type of thing, but it's the simple truth. The CCup is important to all the top clans (as much as any other clan), but at the end of the day no clan will play in a tournament with a system they completely disagree with, and one that they think cheapens the competition. Whether that is the case with this remains to be seen. I don't think even the "official endorsement" of the cup will change that.