THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

[Bruceswar]

Here is the stance from the CD's. We want all clans to have fun. Lower ranked clans seem to favor random. Higher ranked clans want seeds. Lower ranked clans do not want to have to play a 32 vs 1 match.(Not all but some have expressed this) Once the vote is over the CD's will take all the info here and in CDF and formulate a plan where everybody is happy. We want all clans to want to play in this event. This is the biggest and largest clan event we have. We are going to make sure we keep it that way. While the debate is heated right now, we will all have to come to an understanding that not everybody wants the same things. We will put together an event that should please all sides involved.

[Keefie]

Can someone name me a sporting competition where 50% of the field are seeded ?

[josko.ri]

Can someone name me a sporting competition where 50% of the field are seeded ?

UEFA Champions League, Qualifying rounds 1,2,3. UEFA Europa League Qualifying rounds 1,2,3,4. FIFA World Cup Qualifiations, Elimination round..... Now when I answered your question, can you give example of any sports competition where draw is tOtally random?

[ahunda]

Oh well. Since crispybits addressed me directly, I will respond once more:

I am pretty tired too, but I think, your argument is false. If you are looking at any seeding system in official sports events, they always give an easier draw to the top players. It´s the nature of the beast.

Looking at the major football tournaments for example (World Cup both Qualification & Tournament, Euro Cup Qualification & Tournament, Champions League), it is always the same principle: The top teams are put in pot 1, the next strongest teams in pot 2, and so on til the weakest teams in pot 4 or 5 or whatever. Groups will then be drawn, so that each group has 1 team from each pot.

The result is, that the top teams from pot 1 face easier opposition in their group than the teams from pot 3 or 4 or 5. That´s just how it works. The purpose of the seeding is not to give every team the same chance to face a pot 1 team or not, but to make sure, that overall all groups have similar average strength, avoiding a lop-sided draw, where 1 group might end up with 3-4 teams from pot 1, and another group with not a single team from pot 1.

The seeding for the CCup so far has been done in a way, that we had the exact same average in every bracket: 1-32 on one side, 2-31 on the other. This created the perfect mathematical balance overall, but it also created certain problems like very uneven match-ups in the first rounds. This has been acknowledged, and changes & improvements can be discussed, for sure.

As for your questions concerning KORT: Them being the #1 seed, they naturally had the easiest draw under the old system. The system however also suggested, that they had to beat 3 Top 10 clans to win the tournament. And if everything had worked according to seeds (the higher seeded clans winning all match-ups), they´d have needed to beat the #4 clan in the semi finals, the #2 clan in the finals. Sounds like a tough challenge to me, and certainly an accomplishment, if achieved.

The simple truth is: You couldn´t have arranged a harder way for them under a seeding system in a knock out tournament, whilst maintaining overall balance & guaranteeing a similarly tough scenario for any of the other top clans, who were on the other side of the bracket

[Doc_Brown]

Here is the stance from the CD's. We want all clans to have fun. Lower ranked clans seem to favor random. Higher ranked clans want seeds. Lower ranked clans do not want to have to play a 32 vs 1 match.(Not all but some have expressed this) Once the vote is over the CD's will take all the info here and in CDF and formulate a plan where everybody is happy. We want all clans to want to play in this event. This is the biggest and largest clan event we have. We are going to make sure we keep it that way. While the debate is heated right now, we will all have to come to an understanding that not everybody wants the same things. We will put together an event that should please all sides involved.

Maybe it's just me, but I interpret this as basically saying, "It would be nice if everyone voted for some option 3 or a related compromise position, since that's what you're going to get regardless of how the vote turns out." Realistically, I see this playing out one of a couple different ways:
1) The clans vote for random seeding.
a) CDs overrule the vote and institute seeded brackets of some sort. Players roll their eyes at the CDs for taking away the tournament from Dako for not ceding some level of control to a clan vote, then they turn around and ignore a clan vote themselves. Some clans sit out due to the hypocrisy of those heading the tournament. Others sit out due to frustration at being told their vote would count only to find out it doesn't. CCup4 leaves a bad taste in a lot of mouths.
b) Random seeding is used. The top clans sit out of CCup4 and decide to start their own tournament with rankings used to determine the brackets. Perhaps they open it up to any clan that wants to participate. The Official CCup loses relevance.
2) The clans vote to use rankings to seed the brackets (either option 1 or 3)
The vote is approved, and rankings are used to seed the brackets. Some of the lower ranked clans dislike the format and choose to sit out. The response given is, "No worries. No one expected you to win anyway. You'll probably enjoy the format in one of the other cups better anyway." CCup4 goes on, and the controversy fades from memory within a couple months.

Now, I may be completely off base with all of this. My interpretations are based solely on what I've read in the public threads, and not on any PMs or discussions within my clan forum. In any case, I don't see any good outcome if the vote is for random seeding. Let's be honest. If you have a case where clans 1-8 all come and demand you go with option A or they won't participate, while clans 31-38 demand option B or they won't participate. If you're trying to make your tournament a premier event, you go with option A. This isn't about elitism or anything. It's simple economics.

[IcePack]

Here is the stance from the CD's. We want all clans to have fun. Lower ranked clans seem to favor random. Higher ranked clans want seeds. Lower ranked clans do not want to have to play a 32 vs 1 match.(Not all but some have expressed this) Once the vote is over the CD's will take all the info here and in CDF and formulate a plan where everybody is happy. We want all clans to want to play in this event. This is the biggest and largest clan event we have. We are going to make sure we keep it that way. While the debate is heated right now, we will all have to come to an understanding that not everybody wants the same things. We will put together an event that should please all sides involved.

Maybe it's just me, but I interpret this as basically saying, "It would be nice if everyone voted for some option 3 or a related compromise position, since that's what you're going to get regardless of how the vote turns out." Realistically, I see this playing out one of a couple different ways:
1) The clans vote for random seeding.
a) CDs overrule the vote and institute seeded brackets of some sort. Players roll their eyes at the CDs for taking away the tournament from Dako for not ceding some level of control to a clan vote, then they turn around and ignore a clan vote themselves. Some clans sit out due to the hypocrisy of those heading the tournament. Others sit out due to frustration at being told their vote would count only to find out it doesn't. CCup4 leaves a bad taste in a lot of mouths.
b) Random seeding is used. The top clans sit out of CCup4 and decide to start their own tournament with rankings used to determine the brackets. Perhaps they open it up to any clan that wants to participate. The Official CCup loses relevance.
2) The clans vote to use rankings to seed the brackets (either option 1 or 3)
The vote is approved, and rankings are used to seed the brackets. Some of the lower ranked clans dislike the format and choose to sit out. The response given is, "No worries. No one expected you to win anyway. You'll probably enjoy the format in one of the other cups better anyway." CCup4 goes on, and the controversy fades from memory within a couple months.

Now, I may be completely off base with all of this. My interpretations are based solely on what I've read in the public threads, and not on any PMs or discussions within my clan forum. In any case, I don't see any good outcome if the vote is for random seeding. Let's be honest. If you have a case where clans 1-8 all come and demand you go with option A or they won't participate, while clans 31-38 demand option B or they won't participate. If you're trying to make your tournament a premier event, you go with option A. This isn't about elitism or anything. It's simple economics.

Shortly after that post, KORT changed their vote from Seeding Option 1 (the old way) to seeding option 3a.
3a:

R1: Clans ranked 17-24 are randomly paired with the clans ranked 25-32
R2: Clans ranked 9-16 are randomly paired with the winners from R1
R3 Clans ranked 1-8 clans are randomly paired with the winers from R2
QF: Remainng clans ranked 1-4 are randomly paired with those ranked 4-8
SF: Remaining clans ranked 1-2 are randomly paried with those ranked 3-4

My guess is thats the probable "event that will please all sides" in their eyes....but i could be wrong.

[Doc_Brown]

To add to what Ahunda said, the argument about higher ranked clans having an easier path has to be true because they never play themselves. As an illustration, consider a simplified situation where only clans 1 and 2 are present. Clan 1 faces an average ranking double what Clan 2 does in a path to win the event. A bracket containing clans 1 and 32 will necessarily be tougher for clan 32 simply because they have to play clan 1 and easier for clan 1 because they play clan 32. You can balance sides of the bracket, but you can't even it out for every single team.

[jetsetwilly]

First and foremost we must let the vote complete as we still don't have votes from a large number of clans. Clearly if random wins outright (takes 50% of the vote) then some element of a random draw must be included in the final format.

Given the strong views felt by many it would remiss of us to plough ahead with a fully random draw without at least trying to find a compromise position first. I have already suggested one on this thread and we would be happy to hear others. Constructive posts that can help us find a happy medium would be most welcome.

[crispybits]

As for your questions concerning KORT: Them being the #1 seed, they naturally had the easiest draw under the old system. The system however also suggested, that they had to beat 3 Top 10 clans to win the tournament. And if everything had worked according to seeds (the higher seeded clans winning all match-ups), they´d have needed to beat the #4 clan in the semi finals, the #2 clan in the finals. Sounds like a tough challenge to me, and certainly an accomplishment, if achieved.

The simple truth is: You couldn´t have arranged a harder way for them under a seeding system in a knock out tournament, whilst maintaining overall balance & guaranteeing a similarly tough scenario for any of the other top clans, who were on the other side of the bracket

Don't feel you have to respond if you want to stay out of the thread as you mentioned before Ahunda, I'm addressing points rather than who made them.

Nope this is true you couldn't have arranged a theoretically harder way for them to progress to the final under an option 1 style full seeding system. It could have happened under a random draw though. Just because under a system that seeds 100% of the clans and then creates massively lopsided games involving the top clans until at least the QFs could not have given a tougher draw, doesn't mean that other systems could not, or that this is indeed the toughest test they could possibly have faced.

The fact remains that under such a system, the hardest possible run to the SFs for the top rank (i.e. if all matches went to seed which given CCup3 is about 75% of the time) that would happen 42% of the time, is still easier than the easiest possible run faced by their first round opponents, and this favourable run would only happen 1.5% of the time.

Don't you see that this is grossly unfair? Why is the lowest ranked clan of the 32 guaranteed a tougher run to the SFs than the highest ranked clan? Why are they not treated equally by the draw, and let the actual games and wars decide who is better? As has been mentioned it will still be a top clan - as I said you guys are skilled and we respect that - but we don't respect this sense of entitlement to have things as easy as possible for yourself under the guise of tradition or credibility. If you truly valued tradition, none of you would be threatening to go off and have your own competition, THIS competition would be too important to you for that. If you truly valued credibility, you wouldn't be trying to force such a massive advantage over clans you already know are weaker than you before a game is even played.

Like I said before, we all want everyone to play CCup4, and there is room for compromise. I understand your problem with the random draw, which is why I've said both that there is a way to balance the brackets, and that FISO would show willingness to move towards option 3, but only if discussions are civil and we don't feel like we're being forced there at gun point because some/most/all(?) of the top clans want it their way or no way at all.

[crispybits]

Posted this in CDF but also worth opening to the wider audience

Maybe I should try and explain how a balanced random draw could work. I'll do a random draw using bits of paper in a hat now, and the number in brackets afterwards is the sum of the ranks, and the difference between that sum and 33 - the sum of ranks for every game as under option 1:

24v6 (30/-3)
25v3 (28/-5)
26v28 (54/+21)
23v13 (36/+3)
31v1 (32/-1)
14v20 (34/+1)
21v2 (23/-10)
15v7 (22/-11)
16v8 (24/-9)
5v10 (15/-18)
12v9 (21/-12)
17v4 (21/-12)
19v29 (48/+15)
32v18 (50/+17)
11v22 (33/-)
27v30 (57/+24)

Now, you split the draw into two sides, A and B, by first placing the highest positive difference from each draw into one side, then placing the highest negative difference into the same side, then doing the same for the other side, rinse and repeat (flip a coin or something where 2 equal differences exist)

Side A
25v3
23v13
21v2
5v10
17v4
32v18
11v22
27v30

Side B
24v6
26v28
31v1
14v20
15v7
16v8
12v9
19v29

Now side A has 2, 3, 4 and 5 in it, and side B has 1, 6, 7 and 8 in it, so there is a slight imbalance there, but the two halves of the bracket match up overall (there will be higher mid-low range clans in side B) - for reference side A has an overall balance of -1 (it's one rank harder than average) and side B has an overall balance of +1.

Do that once more for side A1 and side A2 and side B1 and side B2, and you have four quarters of roughly equal strength. Then within each of the four quarters, draw a number between 1 and 4 at random for each matchup.

There you have it, a totally randomised draw, that treats everyone equally, yet still retains the balance of the tournament and the ability to schedule in advance, and is just as likely to get tougher in each round as option 1.

[Armandolas]

Oh well. Since crispybits addressed me directly, I will respond once more:

I am pretty tired too, but I think, your argument is false. If you are looking at any seeding system in official sports events, they always give an easier draw to the top players. It´s the nature of the beast.

Looking at the major football tournaments for example (World Cup both Qualification & Tournament, Euro Cup Qualification & Tournament, Champions League), it is always the same principle: The top teams are put in pot 1, the next strongest teams in pot 2, and so on til the weakest teams in pot 4 or 5 or whatever. Groups will then be drawn, so that each group has 1 team from each pot.

The result is, that the top teams from pot 1 face easier opposition in their group than the teams from pot 3 or 4 or 5. That´s just how it works. The purpose of the seeding is not to give every team the same chance to face a pot 1 team or not, but to make sure, that overall all groups have similar average strength, avoiding a lop-sided draw, where 1 group might end up with 3-4 teams from pot 1, and another group with not a single team from pot 1.

The seeding for the CCup so far has been done in a way, that we had the exact same average in every bracket: 1-32 on one side, 2-31 on the other. This created the perfect mathematical balance overall, but it also created certain problems like very uneven match-ups in the first rounds. This has been acknowledged, and changes & improvements can be discussed, for sure.

As for your questions concerning KORT: Them being the #1 seed, they naturally had the easiest draw under the old system. The system however also suggested, that they had to beat 3 Top 10 clans to win the tournament. And if everything had worked according to seeds (the higher seeded clans winning all match-ups), they´d have needed to beat the #4 clan in the semi finals, the #2 clan in the finals. Sounds like a tough challenge to me, and certainly an accomplishment, if achieved.

The simple truth is: You couldn´t have arranged a harder way for them under a seeding system in a knock out tournament, whilst maintaining overall balance & guaranteeing a similarly tough scenario for any of the other top clans, who were on the other side of the bracket

Hello dont you have allready CL5 that allready address your concerns and uses the method you like?
Why are u even talking about sports competition if you know that a cup with format of a tree mostly random?The only thing that can happen in a cup are the BYEs, or in early stages the 50% seed, but not untill the end.If you do seeds till the end then then competition is a total FARSE. There is NO sports competition that does
I like the BYE system , but well some other dont agree with BYES, so no one is ever happy.
This is turning to a very childish discussion:
Some say, "if i dont play my own way i dont play at all".Others say, "we want to play like this , this is the way we gonna play."
Please act like adults, act like educated people and make things that can suit both sides forgetting only your belly button.It should be so fucking simple.
If "you" want this and "he" we wants that, come on...have a little of this and a little of that.

Now a piece of advice on you trying to black mail small clans with the absense of your clan :
First of all, ive seen you writing about earning respect by own merit. So if you think your clan earn respect by doing that.You are terrible wrong.Its the other way around
A clan scene will allways decline, when clans dont think of common interests and dont decide together, thinking that they can manage on their own.
Both levels need each other.
I may have 0 experience in the CC clanworld, but i know what im talking about, since ive been in the gaming scene for too many years to know this.

[niMic]

If you do seeds till the end then then competition is a total FARSE. There is NO sports competition that does

Doesn't the biggest competition on the planet do this? I believe the entire knockout stage of the World Cup is completely determined by the groups, which are themselves heavily decided by seeding rules.

[Armandolas]

Is this comp going to have a group stage?i guess this is not CL5 (a very nice comp)
To win a group you must play against the other teams in the group.Then u get seeded according if u finish 1st or second, not your ranking in FIfa
So for me, a good example of a cup, are the National cup of every other UEFA country(FA cup for ex.)
That cup is for EVERYONE...but the top teams start later on the competition.Early stages are for smaller teams to play each other make them win a few games, then deserve the right to play the big ones, and maybe get lucky on the draw and shine.

I just dont understand (even if i dont agre with that method), what is the big crying about a pure random if it goes through democratic vote.
So do u believe in democracy only if you win?


I believe that if both "sides" can find a middle point in negotiations instead of arguing, it would benefit everyone.

[torres44cm]

Our clan SoH votes option 1 if it will get this voting done, however, this is turning into a debate of whiners. if teams refuse to play, well then so be it and let's move on.

Torres

[Qwert]

crispybits wrote:I've asked this in CDF aswell, but does the seeding argument boil down to either or both of these, and am I missing something? (just trying to crystallise the exact points in a concise way rather than the long posts where it can be difficult to distill the exact point being mande)

1) Tradition - it's always been this way and it shouldn't change now
2) Achievement - to win the competition you should have to fight the top clans, a random easy draw devalues the achievement

Achievement ? From what i read, for you achievement are win a Cup. Well consider that every match in every round are count for medal achievement, i must say even if mine clan don't win a Cup ,but at least make one round victory , these will be achievement not disaster. That why i proposed option 3 format, so that everybody(not just top 8 or top 16) have equal chance for medal achievement.

[jetsetwilly]

What is the view on seeding the top 8 in the bracket but applying a random draw to everyone else ?

[evildoer]

Really, CC is about random. Random drops, random dice, random whatever. Drop every clan in the random slot and how it comes out it comes out. If your an "elite clan" why are you scared to play an "elite clan". Are you a wolf or are you a sheep?

[Vid_FISO]

What is the view on seeding the top 8 in the bracket but applying a random draw to everyone else ?

I think it's a very good idea!

[Qwert]

ok, lets try to create example using option 3. 32 clan cup competition (these its deep explanation of 3a)
For seed are used f400

round 1 -random draw
Pot 1 -clans from 17 to 24 place
(MD)
(LOW)
(TNC)
(G1)
(DYN)
(KOA)
(GR)
(MM)

Pot 2 -clans from 25 to 32 place
(TFFS)
(WAR)
(LEG)
(HH)
(1RFG)
(LHDD)
(KNT)
(UM8)

draw
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
-------------------------------------
-------------------------------------
round 2 -random draw

Pot 1 - join clans from 9 to 16 place
(IA)
(ID)
(OSA)
(PIG)
(OTP)
(FOED)
(MYTH)
(BOTF)

Pot 2
WINNER ROUND 1
WINNER ROUND 1
WINNER ROUND 1
WINNER ROUND 1
WINNER ROUND 1
WINNER ROUND 1
WINNER ROUND 1
WINNER ROUND 1

draw
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
====================================

Round 3 top 16-random draw

Pot 1- join clans from 1 to 8 place
(KORT)
(TOFU)
(AOC)
(AFOS)
(PACK)
(EMP)
(TSM)
(FALL)

Pot 2
WINNER ROUND 2
WINNER ROUND 2
WINNER ROUND 2
WINNER ROUND 2
WINNER ROUND 2
WINNER ROUND 2
WINNER ROUND 2
WINNER ROUND 2

draw
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
pot 1 vs pot 2
=================================
Round 4 top 8- random draw

Pot 1
WINNER ROUND 3
WINNER ROUND 3
WINNER ROUND 3
WINNER ROUND 3
WINNER ROUND 3
WINNER ROUND 3
WINNER ROUND 3
WINNER ROUND 3

draw
pot 1 vs pot 1
pot 1 vs pot 1
pot 1 vs pot 1
pot 1 vs pot 1
=======================================
Round 5 Semifinal-random draw

Pot 1
WINNER ROUND 4
WINNER ROUND 4
WINNER ROUND 4
WINNER ROUND 4

draw
pot 1 vs pot 1
pot 1 vs pot 1
=================================
Round 6 Final

Winner Round 5 vs Winner Round 5
===================================
In these format, from start everybody have equal chance to get equal quality opponent, ofcourse how you go up, then you get stronger and stronger opponents. What its most importan, you have equal chance for medal award(achivement)

[crispybits]

Not quite qwert. In round one, ranks 17 to 24 are guaranteed an easier opponent than ranks 25-32. In round 2 ranks 9-16 are gauranteed an easier draw than any of the round 1 winners. In round 3, ranks 1-8 are guaranteed an easier draw than any of the winners of round 2. If you're already giving 2 byes (maybe 3 if there's a play-in round) to some clans, then they do not also need to be given preferential draws when they enter. Just let each round be totally random, not split into pots, and you're getting closer to something that's truly "equal chance for a medal award" in any given round.

[IcePack]

Posted in CDF as well, but:

What about option 1 where instead of 1 v 32, 2 v 31, 3 v 30...18 v 19
It's 1 v 19, 2 v 20, 3 v 21... 18 v 32

Each clan has an equally lower opponent then the next

[crispybits]

Also posted in CDF (it's a pain sometimes that this discussion is split)

Lets take what I assume would be the worst nightmare random initial draw and apply balancing

1 v 2
3 v 4
5 v 6
7 v 8
9 v 10
11 v 12
13 v 14
15 v 16
(etc etc, I think I've made my point)

Now apply that balancing formula, and you end up with the following:

31 v 32
9 v 10
1 v 2
23 v 24

27 v 28
5 v 6
19 v 20
13 v 14

11 v 12
29 v 30
3 v 4
21 v 22

7 v 8
15 v 16
17 v 18
25 v 26

In this scenario, you get two of the top 8 in each quarter of the draw. If all goes to seeding it will be 1 v 5 and 2 v 6 in the SFs.

Number 1 clans worst run to the final is 2, 23 9, 5, 3 (average 8.4). Number 32 clans worst run to the final is 31, 9, 1, 5, 2 (average 9.6) (compared to a worst run of 18.7 for clan 1 under option 1 and a worst run of 6.2 for clan 32)

Both sides of the draw have a difficulty rating of 0 (as in both are equally difficult), and indeed both halves of each side also have a difficulty rating of 0.

[Vid_FISO]

Also posted in CDF (it's a pain sometimes that this discussion is split)

Lets take what I assume would be the worst nightmare random initial draw and apply balancing

1 v 2
3 v 4
5 v 6
7 v 8
9 v 10
11 v 12
13 v 14
15 v 16
(etc etc, I think I've made my point)

Is that really a "worst nightmare"? As even as a draw that you can have with each and every clan thinking that they've got a bloody good shot at a win as long as they play as well as they possibly can.

[crispybits]

It's the worst case we are being presented with from the higher clans, in that a random draw could give the hardest possible opponents for all the top clans and the easiest possible opponents for all the lower clans. I'm not really suggesting it's actually a worst case, just trying to show that the balancing method I described could still produce even brackets with the most extreme draw.

[Chariot of Fire]

It's taken me hours to read-up on all this, but I've taken it all in. Has everyone lost sight of what this tournament was meant to be? It was really just a framework in which challenges were held. No-one really minded who they were to face - a challenge is a challenge, right? This is now becoming an elite tournament, but it shouldn't be elitist. Here are some simple facts:

1. There are 4 clans in CC3 who have yet to play the final and 3rd place playoff. There are time constraints and I think most of the clan world would like to see CC4 start asap.

SOLUTION - Give a first round bye to just the 4 clans who reached the semi-finals of the preceding Conqueror's Cup

2. There are multiple proposals for how the draw should be made (random/byes/seedings)

SOLUTION - Just make the entire tournament random in Rnd 1. Draw a grid, place one of each of the semi-finalists in one quarter of the Rnd 2 draw. The rest is done randomly - it will be fun. So what if a 'Top 4' clan has to meet the #5 clan in Rnd 2. It doesn't matter does it? To lift the cup you have to meet someone good somewhere along the way, so it may as well be in an early round. This is fair for everyone. Trying to segregate the Top 8 clans every time is going to lead to repetitive encounters.

3. Subjective rulings, e.g. timing out in an esc or nuke spoils game. Some agree, some do not, and no-one can prove what circumstances caused the timeout.

SOLUTION - Leave it to the clans to negotiate between themselves, just as they would in a normal challenge. Some clans don't mind timing out so no harm no foul. Those that do can determine what the penalty will be when negotiating. Let's at least give some leeway to clans to make their own terms and maintain the tradition that this cup once stood for.


The above would (perhaps only in my opinion) give the fairest competition. Introduce random - it's called 'luck of the draw' and exists in a myriad of professional tournaments. I would have no qualms with my own clan starting in Round 1 if it was preferred that way - the only reason I think the last 4 from the previous cup should get a bye is for expediency, otherwise you can put this off for another four months. The only clans that warrant a bye are those who are still contesting the previous tournament. Not the Nos.1-4 seeds from the F400 - that's elitist nonsense - but simply the ones who reached the semis. So if TOFU gets knocked out before the semis in CC4 yet we are #1 on the F400 we start in Rnd 1 of CC5, just like 90% of all the other clans participating.

It really couldn't be any simpler, fairer or more practical. Thanks anyway.