Clan Medals

[Pirlo]

Maybe then the whole thing needs a revamp. If challenges undertaken in the Conqueror's Cup do not receive recognition for a medal then the event will lose its lustre and clans will start to wonder why bother playing in it at all, as it would be simpler (and more rewarding) to just play individual challenges that are medal worthy.

Perhaps the Conqueror's Cup changes its format to one whereby 21 games are played for each head-to-head in a straight knockout format? This would allow for faster completion within a calendar year, more opportunities for upsets just like in a real cup competition, and a medal solely for the members of the clan that wins the final.

Meantime the Clan League can evolve into something more resembling a league than a knockout tourney. It does both at the moment, which sucks for the team that wins 80% of its games during the ladder phase and then loses 8-9 in the knockout phase as by rights that clan would be topping any true 'league' table. Lindax's TLO tourney is a good example of a proper league format, whereby each team gets to play each of the others during the year. The size and scope of the TLO is phenomenal, and how Lindax manages to do it all single-handedly is quite extraordinary. Surely there's scope to look at adopting that tourney as the new Clan League (he's currently doing it with 23 teams, so to incorporate instead all those clans who wish to participate would obviously be no problem).

Conqueror's Cup - reduced gameload, knockout format, tournament medals for the members of the clan that wins the final (so long as those members participated at some stage in the tourney).
Clan League - league format, all clans play each other, new league medals for the participating players in the clan that finishes in 1st place.
Clan challenges - remain as they have always been, minimum 41 games, clans get to choose who they fight, clan medals for the winners.

Looks pretty straightforward to me and I'm sure it would be the best solution. Medals are thus still hard to come by and there would be no argument about the mismatch in the Conqueror's Cup which currently pits the lowest seeds against the highest.

awesome post.. very close to mine, but i couldn't put mine in as good words as this is done.

just to add something to the underlined part... there might be too many clans to have them participated in one round robin. it would take forever if you did. so clan directors can have divisions. (I mean like division 1 consists of top # of clans to be competing for the trophy.... worst # of clans are to be relegated to division 2 at the end of the season with the best # of division 2 to be promoted to division 1) this format of competition is the same of football (aka soccer) in Europe.

[Chariot of Fire]

Thanks Pirlo.

I'm not sure how many clans would participate in the Clan League. Right now Lindax manages his TLO with 23 teams. Every fortnight 22 teams play 11 fixtures comprising 10 games (one team gets a bye) so it really does fit nicely into a calendar year (44 weeks gaming + 8 for set-up and holiday breaks). If it got much bigger I don't think he could handle it alone, but if the workload was somehow shared......

[Ace Rimmer]

jpcloet - is discussion of revamping the "farming" rule ok in this thread, or would you prefer a suggestion, or keep it in the CLA?

[jpcloet]

I'm fine with it here.

[stahrgazer]

Quote copied from my post in the Cup2 thread because it's about medals and CoF's statement here. Additional comments below this quoted material.

Looks pretty straightforward to me and I'm sure it would be the best solution. Medals are thus still hard to come by and there would be no argument about the mismatch in the Conqueror's Cup which currently pits the lowest seeds against the highest.

Makes sense, except:

• Many Cups for various sports also require a league format.
• A league where every clan plays another clan ALSO will pit the highest seed against the lowest seed at some point, and will still require the winner to beat others (like the Cup does). Chuuuck does the seeding to weed out at the beginning to require less games. It also builds drama.
• The most respectable clans are typically not going to be playing the newer clans just to "farm medals." Most of these "lots of clans in on it," organized events require a new clan to have some finished wars before they can join. High-ranked clans don't NEED to pummel peons to get medals; if that's the only way they can win, they'll be knocked down to size at some point no matter how many "noobs" they've beaten, and the next seeding will reflect that.
• "Playing the newest clans in an organized event is farming," sentiment makes me question tournaments where cadets and brigs are allowed to join, and the first random selection up its the brig against the cadet. If the brig wins an individual "anyone can join," tournament like that, will he be accused of farming because of how the event organized?
• Here's an easier solution: let's segregate events. Only clans with a certain community reputation get to join some events; only clans without that rep can join other events; and individual and team tournaments should also all be segregated by points. (Oh, wait, that doesn't work, CC doesn't want to support rank biases.)
• Whatever the changes are to cup or ladder or whatever in future, doesn't change the fact that right now, except for someone's arbitrary decision, every round of the CCup2 challenges do meet the criteria for clan wars/medals.

There is a DISTINCT difference between a top clan systematically picking private wars with only bottom clans; and an organized event where, to save time, the first challenge pits top v. bottom to minimize gamecount, but where the winner is expected to face successive competition (clans that won their top v bottom challenges so wins get progressively harder.)

Systematically picking private wars with unestablished/lower ranking clans is farming (although a top clan could be giving the clan a chance to get a war under belt - example, BSS does that alot and I don't think they're medal-farming when they do it because they WILL take on bigger puppies)

Participating in an organized event, even events that make big puppies face little puppies isn't farming for the Tournaments medals so shouldn't be farming with the wars medals.

Just because a series of wars begin with some semblance of pre-established organization shouldn't mean those wars are ineligible for clan wars medals where:
1) some negotiations are required (CCup doesn't even establish penalties for most rules violations - even the rules it states in order to keep things someone organized, that's up to the clans to negotiate and clans are not restricted from making things harder on each other)
2) gamecounts meet medals criteria (Ccup meets)
3) game choices meet medals criteria (Ccup meets)
4) game schedules are modified depending on outcomes of prior rounds//clan needs (and the CCUp does adjust)
5) participation is voluntary just like any other war (CCup meets)
and so on and so forth.

One more thing..

Here's evidence that a similarly organized multiple-clan-war event is getting medals even for first rounds.

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=441&t=139417

Chuuuck's competition is biased to only allow clans with experience.

The other competition is biased to only allow clans without much experience.

BOTH events seed.

BOTH events pit top seed against bottom seed.

so, wtf?

[Dako]

I think we should remove the farming rule at all. It is damn hard to organize a clan, lead a war and win it. This sole act deserves a medal. Farming rule is overreaction and a fluke of our current CDs which I strongly disapprove. By issuing farming rule you disgrace lower clans by explicitly naming them "farming material" when they cna easily produce 21-20 result in a war that no one expected from them. We should adhere to a helpful environment where each clan will help the other to improve and move forward, even if it means beating them by the war. If you do not want to issue clan medals for that - issue a Training Achievement at least, as the top clan deserves it.

[Pirlo]

How Clan League & Medaling System should Work?

I don't know how many clans we have on CC, but I'm pretty sure they are more than 30 clans.

In this suggestion, I'm trying to make the clan world and competition more enjoyable for both elite and lower clans.

Clans and competition are the reason why a lot of players (especially those who almost achieved everything) are still playing and enjoying this site, because the game itself is not enough to keep players eager to play more and more.

Clan League:

Our current clan league system looks like the NBA format which in which clans are divided into groups and some of them (the highest winners) advance to a play-off (or knock out) system to have at last a final game with the winning clan is the winner of the clan league.

My suggested format is to modify the Clan League format to a round robin where each clan would have to play all the other clans participating in that round robin clan league.

How will that work?

The strongest 20 clans can make the Premier League (like in England Football 'aka soccer' League) and compete to win the highest number of matches over all other clans on a home-and-away basis.

This means that each clan would have to play 38 matches against the other 19 clans; once home and once away against each one.
A match per week is the system of the real life competition of England Premier League where clubs play all the year except in summer (3 months vacation) and in Christmas (2 weeks vacation).

Each match should consist of 10 games (4 quads, 4 trips, 2 dubs or 4 quads, 3 trips, 3 dubs… whatever, up to you). And the clan that win at least 6/10 will be considered the winner of that match. Now a clan should be given 3 points per win.

Wait wait, what if each clan won 5/10 of that match? So easy, each clan will be given 1 point as in English Premier League where the away team sometimes strive to gain a draw and 1 point in the tough match. Yes draw is fun. We don't have to make it win or lose (black or white) result.

At the end of the season, the clan with the highest number of points will be the champion. And a very special trophy (medal) should be awarded to that clan that won a very tough league. And the second and third places can also be awarded silver and bronze medals because they did a very good job but might be not lucky enough to come first.

the medal of the clan league can be like this

or this

with silver and bronze versions for 2nd and 3rd placed clans


The lowest 3 (maybe 4) clans should be relegated to the second division league for the next season and the highest 3 (or 4) clans of the second league should be promoted to the Premier League for the next season.

The second division format can be run on groups basis, if there are a lot of clans to participate therein, since the lower clans may not be patient enough to have a long round robin format.

The winner of the second division league should also be awarded a medal, but I would not award 2nd and 3rd places any medals. They will be promoted to Premier League and that should be enough.

trophy of the second division league can be like this


CC Official Cup:

Official Cup (OC) should be very simple. A knock out system with the winner of a home-and-away aggregate matches advancing to the next round leaving the losers behind. The winner of the final match should be awarded an OC medal.

with a trophy like this


Friendly inter-clans challenges:

With the above systems coming into force, the clan challenges (of 41 games) medal should be less attractive for the elite clans because they would prefer to strive for winning the decent Clan League Trophy which is the best recognition of their decent position. Therefore, I suggest we get rid of the "faming" rule since all clans must get a very good experience when they play many matches (x10 games) throughout the long season.

trophy if this challenge should be the current clan medal

[Dako]

I like the league idea, but no one will give you official medals =(. Or at least not that easy. I would rather be thinking about current medals in terms of league/ccup and so on. Maybe make that CCup round gives 1 medal, and the winner will get as much as 4 medals. Then make the league #1 spot worth 3 medals, #2 2 medals, #3 1 medal. This will boost the prestige of the league. Also, 2nd division league #1 can be 1 medal as well.

[Ickyketseddie]

I really like the idea of developing the clan system with a bit more structure behind it and with new rewards.

Is it really that unlikely that CC are interested in developing the clan structure more? I mean its pretty obvious that the majority of the active community players are involved in clans and fighting to be the best. Why not give us all something to aim for. At least then you won't have the who's better than who threads to worry about anymore. :p

Surely its worth asking the question to the clan community if nothing else?

No ones asking anyone to impliment this immidiately but surely its worth reviewing and if everyone agrees getting it in the to-do list. (I do understand that list may already have plenty on)

[Dako]

I really like the idea of developing the clan system with a bit more structure behind it and with new rewards.

Is it really that unlikely that CC are interested in developing the clan structure more? I mean its pretty obvious that the majority of the active community players are involved in clans and fighting to be the best. Why not give us all something to aim for. At least then you won't have the who's better than who threads to worry about anymore. :p

Surely its worth asking the question to the clan community if nothing else?

No ones asking anyone to impliment this immidiately but surely its worth reviewing and if everyone agrees getting it in the to-do list. (I do understand that list may already have plenty on)

As far as I remember, CC doesn't create new medal non-game types unless more than 100 people will be awarded shortly and constantly. So I think league medal will need 3-4 years to get that much awards, and anyway, it will be damn hard to get to #30 there. So CC goal is to promote other medals (clan medals this case) to be utilized so people strive for #30.

[Pirlo]

As far as I remember, CC doesn't create new medal non-game types unless more than 100 people will be awarded shortly and constantly.

why is that?

[Dako]

As far as I remember, CC doesn't create new medal non-game types unless more than 100 people will be awarded shortly and constantly.

why is that? :-k

Because medals should be less specific and more site-wide I think. Or whatever floats their boat.

[Ickyketseddie]

I get the thinking behind it. Is it completely out of the question, if you were to look at it in the same way you have a special rank for the conquerer, having a special medal for the number #1 clan. You could even do it on a non-perm basis, and it chages to whoever holds the title?? Just food for thought...

[Pirlo]

well. I threw my 2 cents. now it's up to somebody else.

[stahrgazer]

I'm still waiting to hear why "the farming rule" is being applied to one series that pits top seed against bottom seed, but NOT being applied to another series that pits top seed against bottom seed.

If a series of rules must be rewritten to allow medals for these sorts of series, then why is one of these series getting medals for all rounds and the other not?

[chemefreak]

I'm still waiting to hear why "the farming rule" is being applied to one series that pits top seed against bottom seed, but NOT being applied to another series that pits top seed against bottom seed.

If a series of rules must be rewritten to allow medals for these sorts of series, then why is one of these series getting medals for all rounds and the other not?

As we have stated before. The top vs bottom seed in the Newcomer's Cup were all very close in rank so there was no danger of "farming". We were consulted early by that tournament organizer and made a decision prior to the start of the games.

You are upset because your win against OSA has not yet yielded you a medal from the CCup. It may once we get things reorganized on our end (thus, the "no medals issued at this time" rather than "you don't get a medal for farming"). At this point, we are operating under the agreement with the TOURNAMENT ORGANIZER that the Top 8 will get medals. Now, I will reiterate, from JPC's ladder model, at the time your challenge with OSA finished it was #4 vs #34. Out of 45 or so clans, that is a gigantic difference. OSA is definitely proving to be better than that ranking so that is helping your case a bit, but from just a simple, practical view, that was an inequitable challenge at best.

[Dako]

It was not #4 vs #34 because our rankings are not official and are based on perceptions. So they do not mean the strength of the clan, they mean only the seeding position. Yes, they are reflection the strength, but it is not a precise reflection at all.

Waiting for your decision :).

[chemefreak]

It was not #4 vs #34 because our rankings are not official and are based on perceptions. So they do not mean the strength of the clan, they mean only the seeding position. Yes, they are reflection the strength, but it is not a precise reflection at all.

These #s are actually based on the unofficial ladder, not perception. With a few hundred challenges on it now, it is actually looking pretty accurate. Now, even if perception were built in, who here seriously thinks that OSA vs LoW was an evenly weighted war or "fair fight" (besides LoW and OSA)?

Or is this still you TOFU guys sore about not getting medals for the T4C challenge? Btw, I probably wouldn't hold my breath on that one. I don't care how much any formula is tweaked for that one, I don't see that ever happening.

[stahrgazer]

It was not #4 vs #34 because our rankings are not official and are based on perceptions. So they do not mean the strength of the clan, they mean only the seeding position. Yes, they are reflection the strength, but it is not a precise reflection at all.

These #s are actually based on the unofficial ladder, not perception. With a few hundred challenges on it now, it is actually looking pretty accurate. Now, even if perception were built in, who here seriously thinks that OSA vs LoW was an evenly weighted war or "fair fight" (besides LoW and OSA)?

Or is this still you TOFU guys sore about not getting medals for the T4C challenge? Btw, I probably wouldn't hold my breath on that one. I don't care how much any formula is tweaked for that one, I don't see that ever happening.

No, it's about ridiculous arbitrary changes in rules based on, "because I said so."

It's about being penalized because Chuuuuck welcomed more teams in his matches than the other cup welcomed in theirs.

It's about, just because a clan is new, does not mean the PLAYERS in the clan are new to CC or to clans or clan wars (the Pack, in the Newcomer's cup, is an example of a "new clan" led by experienced clanners.)

It's about the fact that the initial annoucement about clan war medals saying NOTHING about any possible 'farming' problem; just a requirement for number of games.

It's about the fact that Chuuuck didn't make those 'seedings' based on a ladder, he took votes from all the participating clans, which is PERCEPTION not "unofficial ladder."

It's about the fact that ALL, not just SOME of these Cup skirmishes meet the requirements for medals.

It's also about the fact that Legends of War didn't join a Conqueror's Cup skirmish so we could "farm" and by denying our rightful awards for winning against first OSA and then Legion, you are implying that that's what we did. And you're implying that everyone else who had to play in a play-in round (that LoW didn't want to have to play, by the way) and 16-games round joined because they got a chance to "farm."

[Bruceswar]

It was not #4 vs #34 because our rankings are not official and are based on perceptions. So they do not mean the strength of the clan, they mean only the seeding position. Yes, they are reflection the strength, but it is not a precise reflection at all.

These #s are actually based on the unofficial ladder, not perception. With a few hundred challenges on it now, it is actually looking pretty accurate. Now, even if perception were built in, who here seriously thinks that OSA vs LoW was an evenly weighted war or "fair fight" (besides LoW and OSA)?

Or is this still you TOFU guys sore about not getting medals for the T4C challenge? Btw, I probably wouldn't hold my breath on that one. I don't care how much any formula is tweaked for that one, I don't see that ever happening.

Actually I will take this one on... Sure we all knew that OSA did not have a great chance... but the same could be said about many other matches. OSA played hard and LoW should get a medal for that. It meets all the rules. I see no reason why it should not be a medal. I am not from either clan, but it is sad to think clans have to watch who the play now for fear of not getting a medal. If you really believed OSA was 34th then well not much I can say to that. We all knew OSA was gonna play tough, just that those rankings came out before OSA had some victories come in. It is you in Legion who is always saying Legion is a top 10 clan, which I agree with, but without some of your own drum beating it likely would not be placed in the top 10 by many. Rankings should not be used to say what is farming or not, you as a CD or anybody should be able to pick out farming from not farming. With that said the cup cannot have farming since you do not get to pick who you play vs. No matter if you win 40-0 or 21-19, you had no idea of knowing who you would play when you signed up. You just wanted to kick ass. At least that is why KORT signed up again. That and to defend our title.

[stahrgazer]

Let's add to this that some rankings based on an UNofficial ladder are mere perceptions.

Now, if some sort of ladder becomes official by an authorized process, and published very openly, with clear, agreed-on rules about how many divisions between the ladder qualify as an acceptable skirmish (and which shouldn't be played at all because after all, farming is ILLEGAL on the site) then any member of any clan can review the ladder to see whether they would be for or against a particular challenge or challenge series.

Of course, that ladder must also have an agreed-on and timely update process.

Doing anything less than a very public OFFICIAL ladder is making arbitrary and wrong decisions about which challenges are legal and which aren't.. again, farming on CC is illegal, so those who participated in wars that are refused medals because of farming should be disciplined with more than just, "no medal."

If you disagree that this arbitrarily-decided accusation of farming should be disciplined per normal site rules, then you're admitting it wasn't farming after all.

Seriously, though, if I had been aware that participating in the Cup series might result in LoW being implied as farmers (withholding or delaying clan medals based on 'farming' does imply we - and others in the series - FARMED) I would've voted we stay home.

So I need to see that "unofficial" list before I can vote on further Legends challenge participation. Maybe not all clans take a full-member vote about challenges, but many do and LoW is one of them.

[Leehar]

Let's add to this that some rankings based on an UNofficial ladder are mere perceptions.

Wouldn't the fact that it's a ladder that the officials use make it an official ladder by definition?

But anyway stahr, I don't think your raising a stink right now is helping anyone. You do make some valid points but the cd's have stated they may be revising the guidelines to accommodate the Conqueror's cup, so let them do that work without antagonizing them further.

With regards to some of your points, I think we all accept that all these rankings are still somewhat subjective and that farming basis is perhaps based more on the CD's perceptions themselves, so perhaps we shall be getting guidelines on how those are dealt with as well, but as cheme mentioned, things like tofu-tnc were very much on the opposite ends of any scale.

Also, I'm not sure I agree with your cc farming to clan farming legality issue. If we look at it from a perspective that cc has placed new recruit farming as impermissible, then it makes similar sense for cd's to put forth that farming of [url]new[/url] clans is not acceptable for medals, even though that has no direct impact on the overall cc conception of farming.

And just as I think we jokingly referred to the Pack-KoA battle as farming, I don't really have qualms with saying that other clans similarly 'farmed' in the cup if they have been involved in lopsided results. There doesn't necessarily have to be evil connotations attached to that.

[stahrgazer]

Let's add to this that some rankings based on an UNofficial ladder are mere perceptions.

Wouldn't the fact that it's a ladder that the officials use make it an official ladder by definition?

But anyway stahr, I don't think your raising a stink right now is helping anyone. You do make some valid points but the cd's have stated they may be revising the guidelines to accommodate the Conqueror's cup, so let them do that work without antagonizing them further.

With regards to some of your points, I think we all accept that all these rankings are still somewhat subjective and that farming basis is perhaps based more on the CD's perceptions themselves, so perhaps we shall be getting guidelines on how those are dealt with as well, but as cheme mentioned, things like tofu-tnc were very much on the opposite ends of any scale.

Also, I'm not sure I agree with your cc farming to clan farming legality issue. If we look at it from a perspective that cc has placed new recruit farming as impermissible, then it makes similar sense for cd's to put forth that farming of [url]new[/url] clans is not acceptable for medals, even though that has no direct impact on the overall cc conception of farming.

And just as I think we jokingly referred to the Pack-KoA battle as farming, I don't really have qualms with saying that other clans similarly 'farmed' in the cup if they have been involved in lopsided results. There doesn't necessarily have to be evil connotations attached to that.

If this ranking unofficial thing is done by CD perception then it's still perception, not reality... conducted behind secret doors because this one or couple of people say, omigosh, that's a top notch clan facing peons.

It's unf*gbelievable to me that ANY pre-existing clan who agreed to give a newcoming clan a chance for experience as a one-time thing,is perceived by ANY definition, as farming. So I do have qualms with anyone saying that just because there's potential lopsided results, it's automatically farming, and there IS something evil with saying it is.

It should be REALLLLLLLLLY offensive to both parts of those skirmishes.

Farming by definition must be systematic. If THOTA, or LOW, or TSM, or others... were actively engaging in a systematic attempt to bash the little guys, I'd see the point.

And this, "give them time" thing? From what I gather, they've had this decision for months.. only folks like me who innocently voted to join skirmishes were not AWARE that they'd had that decision sitting there in the private back corners of devious CC minds. But they did. So, they've had months.

And if no one else is willing to step out in public and shout to the world how wrong it is; and if I've got to stand alone shouting it, damned right I'm gonna shout!

And if they're "antagonized" because I am? So f*n what? I'm antagonized to be even REMOTELY tainted with a, "farming" brush by this delay and denial.

And so should anyone else who has participated in skirmishes that were long enough/large enough to qualify for a medal if there wasn't this unofficial back-door rule that implies, "You winners are farmers, and you newer clans are just peon noobs unfit to fight a fair skirmish."

[Bones2484]

I guess I was under the assumption that all challenges in CC2 would qualify for a medal as they fit the requirements to do so...

I mean, why would G1 not deserve a medal for beating Dynasty (the match-up was 14 v 22 based on the latest power rankings). It was 41 games and heavily weighted towards team matches.

Pretty ridiculous to not include this, in my opinion. I see absolutely no reason why all of these aren't being counted.

[danryan]

I'm pretty sure the CD's said it was under consideration. There's an awful lot of hand waving going on right now. I think in the end medals will get awarded for the winners of each clan war, but if it doesn't is it really that big of a deal? I mean, we played challenges between clans long before there was a little .jpg as a reward for the win; were those any less fulfilling before lack got a medal for the clan wars?