THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

[josko.ri]

Also, if anything is "Alternative" here, that is option 2. All other 4 options has some kind of seeding involved, only option 2 does not have it, so if we really needed to give nicknames to suggestion, then option 2 deserves nickname "Alternative".

Josko, think about it. Why would a clan outside of the top 16 in the F400 vote for an option that gives a preferential draw to the top 16. You could have dressed your idea in a frock and called it Mary but it was never going to win.

Qwert's/my suggestion is actually favor to lower ranked clans, and it was made mainly because of them. I regret if they fail to understand that. So let me explain:
Let's see what results clans ranked #1-8 achieved vs clans ranked #25-32 in the past CCups:
TOFU-SOH: 35/5
PACK-RA: 34/7
TSM-T4C: 33/8
TSM-TLW: 33/8
EMP-DBC: 32/9
IA-RA: 30/11
AoC-VDLL: 29/12
EMP-AKA: 28/13
FOED-VDLL: 27/14
KORT-LOTZ: 25/16
AoC-1RFG: 25/16
LOW-OSA: 24/17
IA-HH: 23/18

So, no one of those matches came even close to be upset. Who enjoyed in those matches? Nor top clans enjoys in winning with so big gap, nor lower clans enjoys in being so hard beaten. From my personal experience, we in KORT even lowered our play level in past Round of 32 (For example, KORT did not play Hive map, which is our the strongest map which we never lost) so if we played our full strength, gap would be even higher. But who enjoyed in hard kicking someone so lower ranked than you? Nobody. Actually, maybe GLG enjoyed.

So now, Let's see how will some lower ranked clan, let's say clan #25, make their path in different suggested formats:

Red Option 1
Green Option 2
Blue Option 3

Option 1.a (Seeded system): In round 1, they already get top clan #8, so to achieve a single win, they need to do what nobody ever did in past-beat clan ranked #1-8 by clan ranked #25-32. In short, this is one and the only round played by clans ranked lower than #25. Who would enjoy in matches played on this way? Nor top clans like to play non interesting matches and get easy wins, nor lower clans enjoy in being so hard beaten, nor spectators enjoy in following matches like that.

Option 3.a:
Round 1: Clan ranked #25 will play vs someone ranked #17-24. You see, it is very equal playing field where chances to win are more or less 50/50%.
Round 2: If clan ranked #25 achieve win in Round 1, they will play vs some clan ranked #9-16. Playing vs 9-16 ranked and being already very encouraged by win in round 1 will still be more chance to win than comparing to option 1.a where they play vs clan #8
Round 3: And now, all lower ranked clan who achieved 2 wins in a row vs more or less equal level clans, are going to face some top level clan ranked #1-8. But, isn't it very different to play vs clan #1-8 when you already have achieved 2 wins in a row vs lower clans, being full encouraged and confident in yourself, and being high motivated to make another upset vs top clan, than playing vs them in Round 1, when lower ranked clan is stil maybe unorganized, unmotivated, unskilled, or whatever? Every win increase your skills/organization/motivation/self-confidence so facing top clan in Round 3 will for sure give them better chance to win that facing top clan in Round 1. See OSA for example, after 2 wins in a row their skill/organization/motivation/self-confidence had raised so much that they were almost able to beat #1 clan.

I think this comparison told enough why option 3 is better than option 1 for any lower clan. Now is going comparison why option 3 is better than option 2 (Random draw) for lower clans, again considering from a clan ranked #25:

With option 3, clan ranked #25 will have this draw:
Round 1: Opponent will be a clan ranked #17-24
Round 2: Opponent wil be clan ranked #9-16
Round 3: Opponent will be clan ranked #1-8

With option 2, clan ranked #25 will have this draw:
Round 1:
25% chance to play vs clan #1-8
25% chance to play vs clan ranked 9-16
50% chance to play vs clan ranked 17-32
As conclusion, with this format there is only 50% chance that clan #25 will get clan ranked lower than #16. In my suggestion, there is 100% chance that clan #25 will get clan ranked lower than #16 in round 1.

Round 2:
Right here, we will already have less lower ranked clans than it would be with suggestion 3. The ones unlucky who get top ranked clans in Round 1 will be hard beaten, and probably most of them who get mid ranked clans will also be beaten, maybe 1-2 upsets. Just a few the most luckier than get other lower ranked clan will be default advance to Round 2. In total, there should not be more than 6 lower ranked clan in Round 2 with random draw. (4 which got lucky draw to play vs other ranked clan, and 2 that made little upset vs mid ranked clan)

So, the 6 low ranked clans will get draw against other 10 clans. Maybe 1-2 of the match-ups will again be very lucky to get other low ranked clans while everyone other will get some strong opposition right here and will be hard beaten.

As conclusion, with random format, in Round 3 it will maybe progress one low ranked clan that luckily got easy draw, and another one that maybe made upset vs mid ranked clan. I know from viewpoint of some low ranked clan everyone is praying that exactly they will be the one clan who will get lucky draw, but in reality, much more of low ranked clans will be hard spanked in Round 1 or Round 2, or even in Round 3 by a Top clan in some non interesting match, which will lead to non interesting tournament nor for players nor for spectators.

Another point is that if you award top clans with byes in early round, then new editions of CCups will be faster. Right now, we need to wait until CC3 finishes in order to not give (semi)finalists to play 2 competitions at the same time. Semifinals and finals are together lasting like 5 months. If we accept my suggestion, CC4 can start right now, as we do not need to wait for CC3 (semi)finals to finish. CC5 can also start while semifinals of CC4 is still underway, so this is another great point for lower clans, they will have chance to participate in CCup more often. Right now, who is eliminated in round 1 need to wait one year for next edition. With byes to top clans, start of the next edition can overlap with end of previous edition, so waiting time for new participation chance will be around 8 months. Isn't it better for lower clans to have chance to play in the major Cup more often, without penalizing top clans to play 2 editions at the same time?

Third point, the most important, is that every round with suggestion 3 will have the most possible equal playing field, in early rounds everyone will play vs clans who are ranked more or less equal than them, and in later rounds Top clans will play vs very encouraged and motivated clans who are already in positive killing spree series. For overall progress of clan world and the tournament, interesting matches is something that is the most needed. As conclusion, every round will have the most interesting matches with only rarely some high margin win by any clan. With random draw it is high probability that we will have a lot of non interesting matches, even in later rounds, which does not happen with other draw types. In overall, for clan world that is really bad. Players like excitement and tough matches, so with boring matches players can start leaving clan scene and overall interest for it can go down. That is for sure not the way how we will maintain clan scene on high interesting level, which it has been maintained and improved for past years.

You see, my suggestion in overall is in favor of lower ranked clans. Who has ears let him hear it.

[josko.ri]

Also, here is my self-interest viewpoint on random draw, if we suppose I only think about my ass and not about overall clan world progress: Let's say KORT is very "lucky" in the draw and gets to play vs all lower ranked clan in first 3 rounds. for example, we have random draw, and it comes like #1vs26, 27vs30, 32vs31, 25vs28 then next round #1vs27, 32vs25, and in third round #1vs25. Hell no. I play this game for fun, and I have a lot of fun when my opponents are more or less equal playing field than my team so matches are then very interesting. Right now I already have 6-0 score in CL5 where we are playing vs a lot of low ranked clans, and I really do not enjoy in it. In all 6 games there have still not happened anything close to fair fight, so I even sent my lower maps to play at home field vs those clans, because what I am searching for is fun, and there will be more fun if playing level is more equal, so in order to equalize playing level I sent lower maps and do not even play my the best maps. Now, with random draw it can happen that in 2-3 starting rounds my clan will be playing vs some very weak clan, and I already have headache of having several consecutive months of playing non-interesting matches which would happen in that case. So I even need to lower my playing field by not sending the strongest maps in order to have interesting games.

[Leehar]

The feeling was that this [Option 3] was even more elitist and inequitable than option 1. It's not about having a better chance to win in round 1, it's about all clans being treated equally in how the competition is set up.

Whats your response Josko?

I'm just trying to grasp the differing opinions here, and why in essence being Seeded seems grossly unfavourable to some clans.


Edit: Perhaps the Bye's are an issue? Why should a low-ranked clan have to fight similar quality opponents for 2 tough rounds before coming up against rested and refreshed Top 8 clan

[Armandolas]

I would like to give my opinion.My opinion is only based om my competitive view and not on personal matters or my own clan interests.

I believe option 3 is the best until round3. In round 3 ALL matches should be pure RANDOM. Enough of seedings, because this is still a cup and a cup should be unpredictable.
(to illustrate this try to imagine old days Champions League draws..you have seedings in early stages, then its pure random)

I think this is by far the most fair and entertaining system.

[Foxglove]

The feeling was that this [Option 3] was even more elitist and inequitable than option 1. It's not about having a better chance to win in round 1, it's about all clans being treated equally in how the competition is set up.

Whats your response Josko?

I'm just trying to grasp the differing opinions here, and why in essence being Seeded seems grossly unfavourable to some clans.

I will summarize my opinions, for people who won't read all of josko's comments.

I think many clans are failing to comprehend the difference between a system that treats every clan exactly the same (completely random) and a system that will produce a great competition with competitive match-ups.

Option 1 (the system for the previous three cups) will produce the most imbalanced match-ups, as it means that logically speaking, the bottom half of the ranks are likely to be eliminated in round 1, because each of them will be matched against a higher ranked clan. In many circumstances the imbalance will be extreme (1v32, 2v31, etc.).

I think this imbalance is what is causing so many clans to favor Option 2, the completely random draw. The bottom half of the clans (by rank) might feel like this is their golden ticket to advance. What if TOFU/KORT/AFOS/AOC/OSA etc. are all matched up in the initial round?! Half of the strong clans might be knocked out and smooth the way for the lower ranked clans to skate through to a higher position. And if you're ranked 25 or 33 or whatever, then f*ck yeah, right?!

Option 3 is the most complex and seems, on the surface, to be unfair if you only think about it with your gut. Things become more clear, though, if you use your head. It gives byes to the higher ranked clans, and allows the lower ranked clans to play each other in the early rounds. When the more highly ranked clans start entering the bracket, they will be playing the winners of the previous matches and all of the competitions should be strong and relatively fair. People who are against this option probably fall into 3 camps:
1. They don't think anyone deserves a bye. Fair enough - then we should go with option 1.
2. They're lazy and haven't bothered to read and understand how this favors progress for lower ranked clans (I think a lot of people fall into this category).
3. They want the option that will allow their clan the highest chance to succeed, regardless of ranking. This means they are illogical, and probably favor option 2 (GOLDEN TICKET!!!!@!, f*ck YEAH!@#$@).

[Armandolas]

The feeling was that this [Option 3] was even more elitist and inequitable than option 1. It's not about having a better chance to win in round 1, it's about all clans being treated equally in how the competition is set up.

Whats your response Josko?

I'm just trying to grasp the differing opinions here, and why in essence being Seeded seems grossly unfavourable to some clans.

I will summarize my opinions, for people who won't read all of josko's comments.

I think many clans are failing to comprehend the difference between a system that treats every clan exactly the same (completely random) and a system that will produce a great competition with competitive match-ups.

Option 1 (the system for the previous three cups) will produce the most imbalanced match-ups, as it means that logically speaking, the bottom half of the ranks are likely to be eliminated in round 1, because each of them will be matched against a higher ranked clan. In many circumstances the imbalance will be extreme (1v32, 2v31, etc.).

I think this imbalance is what is causing so many clans to favor Option 2, the completely random draw. The bottom half of the clans (by rank) might feel like this is their golden ticket to advance. What if TOFU/KORT/AFOS/AOC/OSA etc. are all matched up in the initial round?! Half of the strong clans might be knocked out and smooth the way for the lower ranked clans to skate through to a higher position. And if you're ranked 25 or 33 or whatever, then f*ck yeah, right?! if a clan is ranked low it generally means that its members are some combination of inexperienced (they're not familiar with all of the maps and settings and strategies on CC), illogical (they play poorly), and unreliable (they miss turns or make wacky moves). The thing is, I'm fairly certain that allowing everyone an "exactly equal" vote is going to result in a ridiculously random competition. Time will tell.

Option 3 is the most complex and seems, on the surface, to be unfair if you only think about it with your gut. Things become more clear, though, if you use your head. It gives byes to the higher ranked clans, and allows the lower ranked clans to play each other in the early rounds. When the more highly ranked clans start entering the bracket, they will be playing the winners of the previous matches and all of the competitions should be strong and relatively fair. People who are against this option probably fall into 3 camps:
1. They don't think anyone deserves a bye. Fair enough - then we should go with option 1.
2. They're lazy and haven't bothered to read and understand how this favors progress for lower ranked clans (I think a lot of people fall into this category).
3. They want the option that will allow their clan the highest chance to succeed, regardless of ranking. This means they are illogical, and probably favor option 2 (GOLDEN TICKET!!!!@!, f*ck YEAH!@#$@).

Sry, but you seem a bit harsh on your points.Thats not what i understood from josko suggestion. Your argumentation is only about top clans avoiding eachother. So i believe your interpretation of josko arguments is wrong.
It looks like the one wanting a free ticket to an advanced stage is you, not the lower clans.
Even if i would agree in a pure random draw since round 1 , the chance of 2 great clans achieving the final is great.
The way it looks you see it , is that u want a fixed draw.Well...why dont we just proceed to the semi final with the top 4 clans and ignore the rest?
A draw is part of a cups fun...it should not be entirely fixed until the final. But i believe top clans are in the top by merit, so they should forfeit in the earlier rounds.
The other must earn in game the right to play with them.

[Foxglove]

Sry, but you seem a bit harsh on your points.

No need to apologize to me!

Thats not what i understood from josko suggestion. Your argumentation is only about top clans avoiding eachother. So i believe your interpretation of josko arguments is wrong.

I summarized my own opinions. In even briefer summary, I do think it's unfair to force the high ranked clans to face each other early on. I support option 1 or option 3, and I think option 2 is basically ridiculous. I also think that option 3 gives lower ranked clans the fairest chance to win a match in the early rounds.

It looks like the one wanting a free ticket to an advanced stage is you, not the lower clans.

Where did I say that? I would like the spirit and intention of the cup to remain similar to the previous three editions. Totally random match-ups are a huge divergence from that.

Even if i would agree in a pure random draw since round 1 , the chance of 2 great clans achieving the final is great.
The way it looks you see it , is that u want a fixed draw.Well...why dont we just proceed to the semi final with the top 4 clans and ignore the rest?

Why would you suggest that? It doesn't seem particularly fair. Out of interest, I reviewed the round of 8 in CC1, CC2, and CC3. The 8 clans in the quarter-finals of each year were the top 8 ranks going into the competition, with one exception each in CC1 and CC2, and 2 exceptions in CC3. (#10 Legion in CC1, #11 FOED in CC2, #10 AFOS and #24 OSA in CC3).

A draw is part of a cups fun...it should not be entirely fixed until the final. But i believe top clans are in the top by merit, so they should forfeit in the earlier rounds. The other must earn in game the right to play with them.

I don't understand what you mean here.

[niMic]

I have to say, there is some merit to the idea that a certain point in the cup should be randomized. There is also a lot of merit to the idea that it should be entirely based on seeding, but both are valid ideas. Both are also used in competitive sports.

What is most definitely not used in competitive sports is a completely random draw. It will produce the worst competition of all the alternatives. You might end up with a ~10-15 ranked clan versus a top 3 clan in the finals. Which is a lot of fun for the lower ranked clan, who will still then proceed to be demolished in the finals. And if they aren't demolished, then they were anyway good enough to progress through a competition with a standard seeding process, making the entire random part pointless.

If we want to create an environment where clan wars are interesting beyond just the people playing in it, we have to avoid that. No one will care about a final with a low ranked clan against a high ranked clan, if that clan got there by a lucky (random) draw. However, if they got there by beating progressively tougher competition, "beating the seeding", it creates a storyline that a lot more people will be interested in.

[Armandolas]

Foxglove:

Armandolas wrote:
A draw is part of a cups fun...it should not be entirely fixed until the final. But i believe top clans are in the top by merit, so they should forfeit in the earlier rounds. The other must earn in game the right to play with them.

I don't understand what you mean here.

What i mean here is that top clan are in the top because they are good. So they should have an early BYE, so lower ranks can fight for the possibilitie/previlege of playing them later.
Also meant that a draw is one of the most interesting things about cups. Having a Kort vs Tofu in the Quarter-finals its not a bad thing, its awesome.
If u seed until the finals then probably you will know by now who will be in the final or semis.
If we go random from round 3 its still fun, and a lot of the "worst clans" are out allready. So everyone that reaches that stage is a good contender for the title, because they earned the right to be in round 3, either by rank or either by defeating other clans in early selective rounds.

Hope ive explained better this time
Cheers

[Genoke]

Also, if anything is "Alternative" here, that is option 2. All other 4 options has some kind of seeding involved, only option 2 does not have it, so if we really needed to give nicknames to suggestion, then option 2 deserves nickname "Alternative".

Josko, think about it. Why would a clan outside of the top 16 in the F400 vote for an option that gives a preferential draw to the top 16. You could have dressed your idea in a frock and called it Mary but it was never going to win.

Qwert's/my suggestion is actually favor to lower ranked clans, and it was made mainly because of them. I regret if they fail to understand that. So let me explain:
Let's see what results clans ranked #1-8 achieved vs clans ranked #25-32 in the past CCups:
TOFU-SOH: 35/5
PACK-RA: 34/7
TSM-T4C: 33/8
TSM-TLW: 33/8
EMP-DBC: 32/9
IA-RA: 30/11
AoC-VDLL: 29/12
EMP-AKA: 28/13
FOED-VDLL: 27/14
KORT-LOTZ: 25/16
AoC-1RFG: 25/16
LOW-OSA: 24/17
IA-HH: 23/18

So, no one of those matches came even close to be upset. Who enjoyed in those matches? Nor top clans enjoys in winning with so big gap, nor lower clans enjoys in being so hard beaten. From my personal experience, we in KORT even lowered our play level in past Round of 32 (For example, KORT did not play Hive map, which is our the strongest map which we never lost) so if we played our full strength, gap would be even higher. But who enjoyed in hard kicking someone so lower ranked than you? Nobody. Actually, maybe GLG enjoyed.

So now, Let's see how will some lower ranked clan, let's say clan #25, make their path in different suggested formats:

Red Option 1
Green Option 2
Blue Option 3

Option 1.a (Seeded system): In round 1, they already get top clan #8, so to achieve a single win, they need to do what nobody ever did in past-beat clan ranked #1-8 by clan ranked #25-32. In short, this is one and the only round played by clans ranked lower than #25. Who would enjoy in matches played on this way? Nor top clans like to play non interesting matches and get easy wins, nor lower clans enjoy in being so hard beaten, nor spectators enjoy in following matches like that.

Option 3.a:
Round 1: Clan ranked #25 will play vs someone ranked #17-24. You see, it is very equal playing field where chances to win are more or less 50/50%.
Round 2: If clan ranked #25 achieve win in Round 1, they will play vs some clan ranked #9-16. Playing vs 9-16 ranked and being already very encouraged by win in round 1 will still be more chance to win than comparing to option 1.a where they play vs clan #8
Round 3: And now, all lower ranked clan who achieved 2 wins in a row vs more or less equal level clans, are going to face some top level clan ranked #1-8. But, isn't it very different to play vs clan #1-8 when you already have achieved 2 wins in a row vs lower clans, being full encouraged and confident in yourself, and being high motivated to make another upset vs top clan, than playing vs them in Round 1, when lower ranked clan is stil maybe unorganized, unmotivated, unskilled, or whatever? Every win increase your skills/organization/motivation/self-confidence so facing top clan in Round 3 will for sure give them better chance to win that facing top clan in Round 1. See OSA for example, after 2 wins in a row their skill/organization/motivation/self-confidence had raised so much that they were almost able to beat #1 clan.

I think this comparison told enough why option 3 is better than option 1 for any lower clan. Now is going comparison why option 3 is better than option 2 (Random draw) for lower clans, again considering from a clan ranked #25:

With option 3, clan ranked #25 will have this draw:
Round 1: Opponent will be a clan ranked #17-24
Round 2: Opponent wil be clan ranked #9-16
Round 3: Opponent will be clan ranked #1-8

With option 2, clan ranked #25 will have this draw:
Round 1:
25% chance to play vs clan #1-8
25% chance to play vs clan ranked 9-16
50% chance to play vs clan ranked 17-32
As conclusion, with this format there is only 50% chance that clan #25 will get clan ranked lower than #16. In my suggestion, there is 100% chance that clan #25 will get clan ranked lower than #16 in round 1.

Round 2:
Right here, we will already have less lower ranked clans than it would be with suggestion 3. The ones unlucky who get top ranked clans in Round 1 will be hard beaten, and probably most of them who get mid ranked clans will also be beaten, maybe 1-2 upsets. Just a few the most luckier than get other lower ranked clan will be default advance to Round 2. In total, there should not be more than 6 lower ranked clan in Round 2 with random draw. (4 which got lucky draw to play vs other ranked clan, and 2 that made little upset vs mid ranked clan)

So, the 6 low ranked clans will get draw against other 10 clans. Maybe 1-2 of the match-ups will again be very lucky to get other low ranked clans while everyone other will get some strong opposition right here and will be hard beaten.

As conclusion, with random format, in Round 3 it will maybe progress one low ranked clan that luckily got easy draw, and another one that maybe made upset vs mid ranked clan. I know from viewpoint of some low ranked clan everyone is praying that exactly they will be the one clan who will get lucky draw, but in reality, much more of low ranked clans will be hard spanked in Round 1 or Round 2, or even in Round 3 by a Top clan in some non interesting match, which will lead to non interesting tournament nor for players nor for spectators.

Another point is that if you award top clans with byes in early round, then new editions of CCups will be faster. Right now, we need to wait until CC3 finishes in order to not give (semi)finalists to play 2 competitions at the same time. Semifinals and finals are together lasting like 5 months. If we accept my suggestion, CC4 can start right now, as we do not need to wait for CC3 (semi)finals to finish. CC5 can also start while semifinals of CC4 is still underway, so this is another great point for lower clans, they will have chance to participate in CCup more often. Right now, who is eliminated in round 1 need to wait one year for next edition. With byes to top clans, start of the next edition can overlap with end of previous edition, so waiting time for new participation chance will be around 8 months. Isn't it better for lower clans to have chance to play in the major Cup more often, without penalizing top clans to play 2 editions at the same time?

Third point, the most important, is that every round with suggestion 3 will have the most possible equal playing field, in early rounds everyone will play vs clans who are ranked more or less equal than them, and in later rounds Top clans will play vs very encouraged and motivated clans who are already in positive killing spree series. For overall progress of clan world and the tournament, interesting matches is something that is the most needed. As conclusion, every round will have the most interesting matches with only rarely some high margin win by any clan. With random draw it is high probability that we will have a lot of non interesting matches, even in later rounds, which does not happen with other draw types. In overall, for clan world that is really bad. Players like excitement and tough matches, so with boring matches players can start leaving clan scene and overall interest for it can go down. That is for sure not the way how we will maintain clan scene on high interesting level, which it has been maintained and improved for past years.

You see, my suggestion in overall is in favor of lower ranked clans. Who has ears let him hear it.

I must say that Josko has given me another point of view here. which i like...good explanation there josko!
reading all those comments from several people....i think i better change my vote....

[chapcrap]

What is fair an equitable is no byes, just put people in a bracket and move forward, that's fair to everyone. You can't baby people because they play like crap and you can't reward people by moving them forward in the tournament just because they are better. It's not fair all the way around. If people want to be babied, then send them to NC4, mcshanester29 has open arms. If people want byes because they have big heads about themselves and think they shouldn't have to face low ranked clans, then they need kicked in the nuts.

One round of random seeding is fair. Randomizing it every round it pointless. It's already been randomized once.

[jghost7]

...

I will summarize my opinions, for people who won't read all of josko's comments.

I think many clans are failing to comprehend the difference between a system that treats every clan exactly the same (completely random) and a system that will produce a great competition with competitive match-ups.

Option 1 (the system for the previous three cups) Single Elimination seeded bracket. All teams go from start.

Option 2, the completely random draw. Not even a change that is consistent with this tournament.

Option 3 a seeded system that has 2 rounds of play-in games.

lol sorry, I liked this comment...lol---->(GOLDEN TICKET!!!!@!, f*ck YEAH!@#$@).

Sry, but you seem a bit harsh on your points.Thats not what i understood from josko suggestion. Your argumentation is only about top clans avoiding eachother. So i believe your interpretation of josko arguments is wrong.
It looks like the one wanting a free ticket to an advanced stage is you, not the lower clans.
Even if i would agree in a pure random draw since round 1 , the chance of 2 great clans achieving the final is great.
The way it looks you see it , is that u want a fixed draw.Well...why dont we just proceed to the semi final with the top 4 clans and ignore the rest?
A draw is part of a cups fun...it should not be entirely fixed until the final. But i believe top clans are in the top by merit, so they should forfeit in the earlier rounds.
The other must earn in game the right to play with them.

Dude, that is not what she said. LOL.

[Leehar]

People who are against this option probably fall into 2 camps:
1. They don't think anyone deserves a bye. Fair enough - then we should go with option 1.
2. They want the option that will allow their clan the highest chance to succeed, regardless of ranking. This means they probably favor possibly easier progress for lower ranked clans

If it wasn't for your acceptable bias towards josko's option , and some slight digs at people (and therefore alienating those that voted differently), I would totally use your arguments to campaign for votes on Option 3

Anyway, I also assumed similarly to you that people were just falling into the 2nd camp of your example, but that isn't the case for some, who just didn't feel that top clans should face less wars to reach the final, and neither did they want indefinite 1v32 match-ups (always losses) for the first round, so random perhaps seemed the best alternative.
I have been able to narrow down their views a bit, and perhaps a semi-random where only top 8/16 is an adequate compromise for them, which allows them a fairer chance & doesn't involve facing possibly rested opposition in latter rounds?

Now if josko or Fox can phrase a cogent argument to those that have voted for All-Random, on why that may not be the most enviable format (Josko already did a nice one, but was hoping he could address the other worries people had) I'm sure we can table it to the Reps and they can consider the facts on their merits.

However, I really don't believe insults or threats would necessarily obviate their choices.

I'm confident there are enough level-headed people who are always willing to listen if they are given the appropriate information in a polite fashion. The middle-ground does exist, and I'm sure it can be reached

[IcePack]

[quote=Leehar]
'm confident there are enough level-headed people who are always willing to listen if they are given the appropriate information in a polite fashion. The middle-ground does exist, and I'm sure it can be reached[/quote]

After months and months and pages and pages of debate. Maybe. Maybe not? So we can expect this to start....in the fall? CD's still haven't given a timetable to start or when all the debate and voting will end.

[Leehar]

The middle-ground does exist, and I'm sure it can be reached

After months and months and pages and pages of debate. Maybe. Maybe not? So we can expect this to start....in the fall? CD's still haven't given a timetable to start or when all the debate and voting will end.

"American Seasoning does not compute"

It's nonsensical to give a schedule since things have rarely(if ever) gone to plan. However, Voting is already scheduled to end in 3 days, I imagine we can estimate optimistic Start to be Mid-April

[Vid_FISO]

A few thoughts.

I wonder how many of these arguments are down to cultural and ideology divides? Maybe not a completely straight line but to a degree it appears (to me) to be US vs RotW to a degree.

What is the purpose of any cup competition? Simple answer - to produce a winner = the best.

To some it really may as well be just start at the last 2/4/8 and forget the rest, that's all they're interested in, what happens to the rest is immaterial, simply cannon fodder there to make up the numbers, it doesn't matter if they lose 41-0 in the first round, only those at the top really matter. Reaching a "spectacle final" that most have no interest in whatsoever is the goal, just there are no fans or spectators, no media, it's just another thread that occasionally bumps to the top of the active forum that most will never be aware of, let alone open. I fail to see the incentive for any of the lower clans to participate and legitimize the "competition" by doing so.

Others clearly, whilst accepting that the best clan will still win the cup regardless of how they get to the final, want more competition along the way for all, giving the lower ranks a reason for entering. Followers of European football will be quite accustomed to various national cup competitions where the minnows play a round or two amongst themselves and with the bigger clubs entering later into the competition and I'd guess would quite happily accept a format where the top 8/10 entered a couple of rounds in if it made the early rounds of the competition more competitive for THOSE INVOLVED.

Again, regarding random draws, the followers of teams/ clubs in an open sport cup competition will have the very basic viewpoint, to win the cup you have to beat the 2nd best team (or the team that beat them) somewhere along the way, whether it be round 1,2,3, the semi or in the final itself.

CC is not a spectator sport and neither does it have fans, there is absolutely no need to manipulate/ seed to a "spectacle" final, beyond those involved and a mere handful of others, no-one cares!

I've also thought whilst writing this, an interesting little comp would be a cup comp where the home drawn team is the only one with map & setting choice (maybe 9/11/13/15 games).

[IcePack]

There are plenty of people who follow the challenges and competition, maybe you dont care - but this does not mean others do not.

[Foxglove]

People who are against this option probably fall into 2 camps:
1. They don't think anyone deserves a bye. Fair enough - then we should go with option 1.
2. They want the option that will allow their clan the highest chance to succeed, regardless of ranking. This means they probably favor possibly easier progress for lower ranked clans

If it wasn't for your acceptable bias towards josko's option , and some slight digs at people (and therefore alienating those that voted differently), I would totally use your arguments to campaign for votes on Option 3

Okok, criticism of the insults in my previous post is noted. I will try again later with some more reasonable arguments!

It's nonsensical to give a schedule since things have rarely(if ever) gone to plan. However, Voting is already scheduled to end in 3 days, I imagine we can estimate optimistic Start to be Mid-April

Errr - that date range sounds pretty impossible to me. The semi-final matches for CC3 are just concluding. The final match hasn't even begun yet.

If we'd like to get started earlier though, I believe that Option 3 will help facilitate such a schedule.

I think this brings to mind a point that josko made which might have been forgotten - Option 3 allows for cups to overlap, because the first rounds of the next cup can run concurrently with the final round(s) of the current cup. Half of the clans who participate get eliminated in round 1 (assuming 32 clans), so at least 16 clans probably go for a year in between their active cup participation. That's a long wait! Option 3 allows for them to participate more quickly, and allows them to face a more equally ranked clan, which also allows them a higher probability to play in subsequent rounds.

[IcePack]

I think this brings to mind a point that josko made which might have been forgotten - Option 3 allows for cups to overlap, because the first rounds of the next cup can run concurrently with the final round(s) of the current cup. Half of the clans who participate get eliminated in round 1 (assuming 32 clans), so at least 16 clans probably go for a year in between their active cup participation. That's a long wait! Option 3 allows for them to participate more quickly, and allows them to face a more equally ranked clan, which also allows them a higher probability to play in subsequent rounds.

Not only that, but the debate is still going on. The vote is "scheduled" to end in 3 days, but one of the CD's has already stated it could be extended. Since there is no single point of contact for the event, hard to know whether Leehar is right or the other one(s) are until someone posts an OFFICIAL schedule.

But, that timeline does not appear to work for several of the options being voted on. Something the CD's need to consider as well as the duration of each seeding option being voted on. IMO there should be some sort of rough draft schedule for each of the options so people know what kind of timeframe / timeline people are looking at. But votings already halfway through...so, not likely to happen at this point. Vote blindly and find out the consequences later i suppose.

[Foxglove]

Not only that, but the debate is still going on. The vote is "scheduled" to end in 3 days, but one of the CD's has already stated it could be extended. Since there is no single point of contact for the event, hard to know whether Leehar is right or the other one(s) are until someone posts an OFFICIAL schedule.

But, that timeline does not appear to work for several of the options being voted on. Something the CD's need to consider as well as the duration of each seeding option being voted on. IMO there should be some sort of rough draft schedule for each of the options so people know what kind of timeframe / timeline people are looking at. But votings already halfway through...so, not likely to happen at this point. Vote blindly and find out the consequences later i suppose.

Well, the CDs have assured us that under their leadership and ownership the cup will run to schedule, so I'm sure that they're considering the time requirements for each of these options and conveying them properly to the people who are voting.

[IcePack]

Not only that, but the debate is still going on. The vote is "scheduled" to end in 3 days, but one of the CD's has already stated it could be extended. Since there is no single point of contact for the event, hard to know whether Leehar is right or the other one(s) are until someone posts an OFFICIAL schedule.

But, that timeline does not appear to work for several of the options being voted on. Something the CD's need to consider as well as the duration of each seeding option being voted on. IMO there should be some sort of rough draft schedule for each of the options so people know what kind of timeframe / timeline people are looking at. But votings already halfway through...so, not likely to happen at this point. Vote blindly and find out the consequences later i suppose.

Well, the CDs have assured us that under their leadership and ownership the cup will run to schedule, so I'm sure that they're considering the time requirements for each of these options and conveying them properly to the people who are voting.

As a voter in the CDF, there hasn't been any discussion of schedule beyond a few people (non cd's) who are bringing it up.

[Foxglove]

Not only that, but the debate is still going on. The vote is "scheduled" to end in 3 days, but one of the CD's has already stated it could be extended. Since there is no single point of contact for the event, hard to know whether Leehar is right or the other one(s) are until someone posts an OFFICIAL schedule.

But, that timeline does not appear to work for several of the options being voted on. Something the CD's need to consider as well as the duration of each seeding option being voted on. IMO there should be some sort of rough draft schedule for each of the options so people know what kind of timeframe / timeline people are looking at. But votings already halfway through...so, not likely to happen at this point. Vote blindly and find out the consequences later i suppose.

Well, the CDs have assured us that under their leadership and ownership the cup will run to schedule, so I'm sure that they're considering the time requirements for each of these options and conveying them properly to the people who are voting.

As a voter in the CDF, there hasn't been any discussion of schedule beyond a few people (non cd's) who are bringing it up.

Oh. It should probably be considered.

[ahunda]

I would agree with Vid_FISO, that there seems to be a divide here, but to me it largely seems a divide between high ranked clans & low ranked clans. And I have to admit, I am a bit disappointed, that quite a few people seem to put their own selfish interests first, instead of taking a step back & trying to find a compromise, that makes the CCup the most interesting & fun event for everybody.

Now there are many people involved here, who were not part of the clan world at the beginnings of the CCup. So let me tell you, that back in those days one of the main attractions of the CCup (and the CLA League) was the fact, that those tournaments gave new & lower ranked clans a shot to play & test their skills against the real top dogs, who usually would not accept regular challenges from those lower ranked clans on the *free market*.

Obviously the experiences of the last years have changed attitudes & expectations a bit. Lower ranked clans have taken regular & tough beatings at the hands of the top clans, and so they are not so eager anymore to call them out. Considering this, I find it very reasonable to make some changes to the original format, so that lower ranked clans are not simply cannon fodder for the top clans in the first round, where they get beaten thoroughly, and then that´s their entire CCup experience. It is easily understood, that in order to make this tournament more attractive & more fun for new and lower ranked clans, we should look for new approaches & compromises.

Yet on the other hand we should not forget & simply brush aside the original idea of the CCup, which was to make this the greatest competition of skill in the clan world, the one tournament, where the top dogs would face each other & really have to prove their worth in 40-60 game challenges. Winning the CCup has in the last years become pretty much synonymous with earning the number 1 spot in the clan world. Now obviously, and also easily understood, it is the interest of the higher ranked clans to preserve that status of the CCup. And that´s why they react negatively to an all-random draw, that could pitch the top clans against each other in the first 2 rounds.

Let´s face it: New & lower ranked clans stand little to no chance to win the CCup, when all the top clans are in the field too. But making a problem of this and/or calling for an *even battle-field* is not, what this should be about. If we wanted equal chances for all, we would throw a coin to decide the winner: 50/50, it doesn´t get *fairer* than that. The point of the tournament however was to determine the true & real number 1, based on a competition of skill at the game.

As chapcrap pointed out already, there are other clan tournaments (the Newcomers Cup & the Allcomers Cup), where very few top clans participate, and where new & lower ranked clans have a realistic shot to win a title. The CCup should be preserved as the one clan tournament, where the top clans participate & fight over the title and the bragging rights coming with it. That does not mean however, that there can´t be any fun in this for lower ranked clans too.

I actually think, that joskos ideas are a serious attempt to accommodate the interests & wishes of those lower ranked clans. His suggestion would avoid any one-sided challenges in the early rounds, where the top dogs beat up the lower ranked clans, but instead let the lower ranked clans have some serious challenges among themselves, against clans of similar rank, giving them a chance get some wins in the course of the tournament, earn themselves a reputation (and medals, yawn), gain experience and then get a shot at a top clan in the later rounds, that they will likely not get outside of this tournament.

This sounds to me like a fair enough incentive for lower ranked clans to participate in the CCup, have fun playing it, taking something out of it. Whilst at the same time preserving the main character of the tournament, that has been the incentive for the top clans in the first 3 editions.

Maybe a compromise could be reached, if the bye system was not quite so extreme ? Not giving 8 clans bye´s for 2 entire rounds, but maybe only 4 (the semi-finalists of the last Cup) or even only 2 (the finalists) ? Give the others (3-8 or 5-8) only 1 round ?

The lower ranked clans, who are opposing the bye idea as *unfair* and/or *advantageous for the top clans* should consider here, that this system would in fact give them a much more even playing field in the early rounds, guaranteeing them opposition of similar rank & skill, whereas a total random draw could still put them up against one of the top clans in Round 1.

Another compromise could be to have random draws for each round, but giving bye´s to the top clans in the first rounds. So we´d then for example have a Round of 16 with the top 8 clans & those 8 clans, who won 2 challenges in a row to win/earn their place in that field of 16 then.

[Keefie]

Ahunda makes some good points, but one theme runs throughout his post: this is a cup for the top clans.

So why not restrict entry to CC4 to just the top 16 clans, after all they're the only ones who really count.

[niMic]

That's certainly not what I got out of his post, Keefie. Most of it seemed to be concerned with ways of giving "the rest" more involvement. Right now the lower ranked clans are usually gone after a round or two. Some may think random draw solves that, but in the process it also completely takes away the integrity of the Cup.

Making the quarters/semis could go from a magnificent achievement to "a lucky bracket".