Medal Stripping

[grifftron]

Nice fair even post Dako... I know they will prob never turn the tables and give us our medals for this war.

This wasn't just a war for us, it was our hardest most challenging war yet, that is why we are fighting to get these medals because we feel they were well deserved, and after the final warning by chemefreak on pg 36 everything calmed down and we expected we would have all received them...

When i was told I didn't receive a medal because I referred to putting on a dickhead on my head to chemefreak, i thought it was childish, way worse has been called of people and chemefreak had nothing to do with this war... I was just pissed because he was taking off his mod hat and said we will never get a war against good clans...

But your post was excellent.. I hope mods don't make up rules along the way again like they did with us, and hope wars will be fun in the future for all... but if these rules are applied so strictly that name calling is not allowed, war threads are gonna be dull as ever.

-griff

[Leehar]

I do wonder, hypothetically speaking, had IA won the war, would any of their players not have been awarded a medal? They weren't exactly angels. And of course they weren't. It's a clan "war." Question is, did any of them cross the line?

my question is "where is the line?"

I would hazard that others could ask when wasn't it crossed?
And it could very well be that if IA won that Demon (for example) or whoever weren't given medals? Obviously this is the first incident where the ruling is being applied, so with time the distinctions would be more clearly defined.

Also it must be remembered that forum guidelines remain different from the war thread behaviour, so griff and GO also need to be wary of crossing that other line on these incidents.

[lynch5762]

Trust me I can start citing the rules and interpretations if need be but that would be a waste of everyone's time... People pay money to play on this site and therefore they are entitled to certain rights....
Rules and regulations that are put into place must be adhered to but also implemented as they are designed... they are certainly not open to the interpretation of any one person to implement as he / or she seems fit.....

But Medals are a privilege not a right? Therefore the mods are in the position to enforce the guidelines to the extent of the grievance caused to them?

Also, I saw GO jumping first from leaders not being responsible for the actions of their clan members, or that griff or tec didn't do anything culpable, but from that can we assume that if GR was the only one to not receive a medal that he still wouldn't rise to the defence of his clan member?

I will address some other issues pointed out shorty but first,

You are 100% correct that medals are a privilege ... not a right... and the same can be said about the "privilege" to even participate in a clan war
This is all clearly documented on the sight but you must understand that the said "privileges" are NOT.... I repeat NOT to be interpreted at the discretion of the moderators....
rather... they are a reward for meeting general guidelines and available to all members of the site that conform to these same guidelines...

Is this a fair statement?

As far as your second comment... I think that we would all agree that anyone on this site should be held accountable for their actions and disciplined accordingly.

[Leehar]

Trust me I can start citing the rules and interpretations if need be but that would be a waste of everyone's time... People pay money to play on this site and therefore they are entitled to certain rights....
Rules and regulations that are put into place must be adhered to but also implemented as they are designed... they are certainly not open to the interpretation of any one person to implement as he / or she seems fit.....

But Medals are a privilege not a right? Therefore the mods are in the position to enforce the guidelines to the extent of the grievance caused to them?

You are 100% correct that medals are a privilege ... not a right... and the same can be said about the "privilege" to even participate in a clan war
This is all clearly documented on the site but you must understand that the said "privileges" are NOT.... I repeat NOT to be interpreted at the discretion of the moderators....
rather... they are a reward for meeting general guidelines and available to all members of the site that conform to these same guidelines...

Is this a fair statement?

Don't the [Official] Clan Medals state specifically that it's intended to curb disruptive and inappropriate behaviour even if they don't fall under the general (site-wide) policies?
Perhaps the terms 'disruptive' etc are subject to a moderators discretion, but I really can't see how you could say those weren't evidenced in the war thread?
It would be quite difficult to go around and saying specifically which members are culpable and which aren't, but as the punishment can only be drawn against one side, and collectively it was deemed inappropriate, the action needed to be taken.

@Dako, But even when KA has made a final statement, has the matter really ever ended there? Sure it could add clarity, but I've never envied ka for his job, so it's really not a situation I'd like to be in. I think Lubawski said it best in that there was a generally 'hostile' atmosphere in the war thread, and that negativity can't really be condoned....

So as a collective, something needed to be done, and I really don't think it helped that untold grief was piled on the CD's as well as cheme being undermined in his duties as well.

At the end of the day, can anyone truly say they were satisfied with the events in IA-Pack? Action needed to be taken, and I doubt giving Pack all their medals so that they can go on their merry way. (and so perhaps let this be promulgated again in the future?)
This is why Cheme's mention of this being a 'poster child' (though perhaps it could be phrased better) is important. For good or ill this should be the benchmark going forward for the new regulations, and it serves as an effective rap on the knuckles (correct usage heh Tec? ) to indicate what can and can not be done, and the fact that medals are so paramount to Pack members should mean that it hits home that much harder!

Going forward now, dissidents like jefjef and eddie2 (for eg) could also now have a clear indication of the consequences of their actions not only to themselves but fellow clan members if they permit or allow unruly behaviour, or perpetrate acts engendering negative atmosphere's, and that there is a recognizable limit to which you can stretch things.

[Dako]

@Dako, But even when KA has made a final statement, has the matter really ever ended there? Sure it could add clarity, but I've never envied ka for his job, so it's really not a situation I'd like to be in. I think Lubawski said it best in that there was a generally 'hostile' atmosphere in the war thread, and that negativity can't really be condoned....

If it comes from admins and you disagree - it means you disagree with the whole CC way. Right now this topic elevates around Cheme and poking at Cheme is easier than poking at KA. Admin made decision would have changed the course of actions/reactions. They for instance can easily handle aggression and hostility.

[lynch5762]

Nasty situation.

Some words of advise from me for both sides (PACK and clan mods). You can ignore them if you want but I believe they will make our world a little bit better.

1. PACK, if you are not cool with mods decision - talk it to either other mods (side opinion) or take it straight to the Andy/KA. Public threads never do any good.
2. Mods, denying clan-leaders their medals because "they should be responsible for their clanmates" is total bs. You should not create rules during the ruling process. If you want, you can alter Medals Guidelines now but you should not apply this ruling on the current case.
3. PACK, being mad doesn't help. Also having multiple people posting in the thread makes everything disorganized and uncontrollable. Choose 1-2 level-headed guys to be your speakers and stick with them.
4. Cheme, if you want to be firm, don't comment like "you see, you called me dickhead again". Proving they are wrong makes it look like you satisfy your inner call for superiority even if it is not like that.
5. PACK, be smarter next time and learn from your mistakes.
6. Masli, perfect position on this ruling.
7. PACK, you will not get your medals back
8. Mods, don't deny the timeline law! You posted warnings, they stopped, you got more reports for previous posts and you made a ruling over those reports.
9. PACK, just win more wars and get your medals with weaker clans :p.
10. Mods, getting baited is unacceptable, learn from C&A department. I thought THOTA-BPB thread taught you something but I guess it didn't. Well, this 2 threads are another lessons, take them!

I am done, thanks.

I guess I run the risk of double posting here but if anyone concerned would grant me a little latitude I would like to make a couple comments.... I think that there have been many "well thought out" posts in this thread and there have also been many "knee jerk reactions" as well... I myself am guilty of the later but this is obviously a topic that has sparked emotions beyond that of just playing a game....

I think that everyone should take a deep breath and consider the following:

Emotions have gotten involved in this issue and they have caused people to say things that in my opinion are "clouding" the real issue at hand... I see many comments citing accusations of "mod abuse" and then retorts stating "mod flaming" right behind them.... It seems to me that while some are taking this personal.... others are trying to take a level headed approach to this subject. I see people taking hard stances and making "matter of fact" statements that might not be warranted and yet others just asking simple questions that can't seem to be answered.

So I ask this..... before anyone concerned or even reading this thread decides to post a comment, please consider the following:

(1) .... Yes emotions have gotten involved (but is it a not a fair statement to say that those directly involved are bound to be a little bit more emotionally involved than those on the outside looking in?) In other words, It is easy to say to someone... "hey, get over it it is just a medal anyway", or "rules are rules and you got your punishment so just take it" .... but I think that most would take a different perspective when they are on the receiving end of these actions (this after all is only human)

and to be honest.... I really don't think it is about the medals at all.... rather, it is the perception of being singled out or disciplined (like no others have been before) in a controversial way

(2) .... I have no problem with members of this site being disciplined for their actions but I think that the key word here is "CONSISTENCY" ..... It is fine if we are trying to set some new standards for forum behavior but I think the following questions need to be asked:

(2.1) ... Are these guidelines clear and have they been explained to everyone that is in a position to help in force them (ie; clan leaders and moderators)?
(2.2) ... Are the disciplinary actions for these rule violations clear and will the be handled in a consistent manner?
(2.3) ... And can we say that without a shadow of a doubt..... that in no way will these actions (or revocation of privileges) be handled at the sole discretion of the moderator in charge?
(2.4) ... And lastly, that these actions will be backed up and remain consistent so as not to leave any room for accusations of preferential treatment or the opposite of the same?

I think that if we can easily answer "YES" to those simple questions then this thread should be done and we will all walk away knowing that this a fair and balanced situation.... However, if there is any hesitation, or even worse a "NO" response to any of those questions than It is clear there is a situation here that needs to be resolved.

Just some food for thought there.... It appears to be easy for some to say that this is the way it is going to be.... but in the end it has to have back-up and support

[lynch5762]

Trust me I can start citing the rules and interpretations if need be but that would be a waste of everyone's time... People pay money to play on this site and therefore they are entitled to certain rights....
Rules and regulations that are put into place must be adhered to but also implemented as they are designed... they are certainly not open to the interpretation of any one person to implement as he / or she seems fit.....

But Medals are a privilege not a right? Therefore the mods are in the position to enforce the guidelines to the extent of the grievance caused to them?

You are 100% correct that medals are a privilege ... not a right... and the same can be said about the "privilege" to even participate in a clan war
This is all clearly documented on the site but you must understand that the said "privileges" are NOT.... I repeat NOT to be interpreted at the discretion of the moderators....
rather... they are a reward for meeting general guidelines and available to all members of the site that conform to these same guidelines...

Is this a fair statement?

Don't the [Official] Clan Medals state specifically that it's intended to curb disruptive and inappropriate behaviour even if they don't fall under the general (site-wide) policies?
Perhaps the terms 'disruptive' etc are subject to a moderators discretion, but I really can't see how you could say those weren't evidenced in the war thread?
It would be quite difficult to go around and saying specifically which members are culpable and which aren't, but as the punishment can only be drawn against one side, and collectively it was deemed inappropriate, the action needed to be taken.

@Dako, But even when KA has made a final statement, has the matter really ever ended there? Sure it could add clarity, but I've never envied ka for his job, so it's really not a situation I'd like to be in. I think Lubawski said it best in that there was a generally 'hostile' atmosphere in the war thread, and that negativity can't really be condoned....

So as a collective, something needed to be done, and I really don't think it helped that untold grief was piled on the CD's as well as cheme being undermined in his duties as well.

At the end of the day, can anyone truly say they were satisfied with the events in IA-Pack? Action needed to be taken, and I doubt giving Pack all their medals so that they can go on their merry way. (and so perhaps let this be promulgated again in the future?)
This is why Cheme's mention of this being a 'poster child' (though perhaps it could be phrased better) is important. For good or ill this should be the benchmark going forward for the new regulations, and it serves as an effective rap on the knuckles (correct usage heh Tec? ) to indicate what can and can not be done, and the fact that medals are so paramount to Pack members should mean that it hits home that much harder!

Going forward now, dissidents like jefjef and eddie2 (for eg) could also now have a clear indication of the consequences of their actions not only to themselves but fellow clan members if they permit or allow unruly behaviour, or perpetrate acts engendering negative atmosphere's, and that there is a recognizable limit to which you can stretch things.

A quick comment here.... when we were asked to stop we did... period!!! are you trying to tell me that our actions were more inappropriate than others on the site??? give me a break.... when we were asked to stop we did just that so please explain what the problem here is????

[lynch5762]

I mean seriously.... what else could you possibly ask for??? it seems to me to be a perfect situation.... X was being inappropriate.... X was asked to stop.... X did.... it worked..... until that wasn't enough????

[greenoaks]

the problem (for your clan) is that mods are not required to tell you to stop or give you a warning.

the problem (for your clan) is a mod asking you to stop does not mean the clock starts ticking from that point on for possible infractions

the problem (for your clan) is your actions throughout the entire war matter, be it in the thread or via pm

[GeneralRisk]

the problem (for your clan) is that mods are not required to tell you to stop or give you a warning.

the problem (for your clan) is a mod asking you to stop does not mean the clock starts ticking from that point on for possible infractions

the problem (for your clan) is your actions throughout the entire war matter, be it in the thread or via pm

LMAO And on another note.............me personally, I could not care less about me not receiving the war medal and methfreak or Mr. Entertainment contributor can take my medal and stick it where the sun dont shine. ty all and goodnite

[Leehar]

Nasty situation.

Some words of advise from me for both sides (PACK and clan mods). You can ignore them if you want but I believe they will make our world a little bit better.

1. PACK, if you are not cool with mods decision - talk it to either other mods (side opinion) or take it straight to the Andy/KA. Public threads never do any good.
   - Fostering debate can't be a bad thing by default, the GD thread on Blitz was relatively successful after all
2. Mods, denying clan-leaders their medals because "they should be responsible for their clanmates" is total bs. You should not create rules during the ruling process. If you want, you can alter Medals Guidelines now but you should not apply this ruling on the current case.
   - But they should be responsible for their own actions(which weren't of the most savoury), and if the following of a negative attitude fosters and encourages dissidence and is a role model for disruptive and inappropriate behaviour within the clan?
3. PACK, being mad doesn't help. Also having multiple people posting in the thread makes everything disorganized and uncontrollable. Choose 1-2 level-headed guys to be your speakers and stick with them.
4. Cheme, if you want to be firm, don't comment like "you see, you called me dickhead again". Proving they are wrong makes it look like you satisfy your inner call for superiority even if it is not like that.
5. PACK, be smarter next time and learn from your mistakes.
6. Masli, perfect position on this ruling.
7. PACK, you will not get your medals back
8. Mods, don't deny the timeline law! You posted warnings, they stopped, you got more reports for previous posts and you made a ruling over those reports.
   - The guidelines didn't include specifics on offering warnings, and even then, there was a warning at page 21 after which the saga continued for another 20+ pages?
9. PACK, just win more wars and get your medals with weaker clans :p.
10. Mods, getting baited is unacceptable, learn from C&A department. I thought THOTA-BPB thread taught you something but I guess it didn't. Well, this 2 threads are another lessons, take them!

I am done, thanks.

I guess I run the risk of double posting here but if anyone concerned would grant me a little latitude I would like to make a couple comments.... I think that there have been many "well thought out" posts in this thread and there have also been many "knee jerk reactions" as well... I myself am guilty of the later but this is obviously a topic that has sparked emotions beyond that of just playing a game....

I think that everyone should take a deep breath and consider the following:

Emotions have gotten involved in this issue and they have caused people to say things that in my opinion are "clouding" the real issue at hand... I see many comments citing accusations of "mod abuse" and then retorts stating "mod flaming" right behind them.... It seems to me that while some are taking this personal.... others are trying to take a level headed approach to this subject. I see people taking hard stances and making "matter of fact" statements that might not be warranted and yet others just asking simple questions that can't seem to be answered.

So I ask this..... before anyone concerned or even reading this thread decides to post a comment, please consider the following:

(1) .... Yes emotions have gotten involved (but is it a not a fair statement to say that those directly involved are bound to be a little bit more emotionally involved than those on the outside looking in?) In other words, It is easy to say to someone... "hey, get over it it is just a medal anyway", or "rules are rules and you got your punishment so just take it" .... but I think that most would take a different perspective when they are on the receiving end of these actions (this after all is only human)

and to be honest.... I really don't think it is about the medals at all.... rather, it is the perception of being singled out or disciplined (like no others have been before) in a controversial way

- But do you then not admit that others 'should've' been singled out and disciplined? (And I believe bpb members would disagree on that not having happened.) It has to start somewhere, and this has sufficient cause to implement discipline and is an efficient method of doing so?

(2) .... I have no problem with members of this site being disciplined for their actions but I think that the key word here is "CONSISTENCY" ..... It is fine if we are trying to set some new standards for forum behavior but I think the following questions need to be asked:

(2.1) ... Are these guidelines clear and have they been explained to everyone that is in a position to help enforce them (ie; clan leaders and moderators)? I would assume so. The moderators obviously have a clear idea of what they believe constitutes punishable behaviour, and have also attempted to communicate the measures to the clan leaders who did not seem to be accepting of them?
(2.2) ... Are the disciplinary actions for these rule violations clear and will the be handled in a consistent manner? - The punishment is clear, and the implementation of it seems to be so as well.
(2.3) ... And can we say that without a shadow of a doubt..... that in no way will these actions (or revocation of privileges) be handled at the sole discretion of the moderator in charge? There are only 2 CD's currently responsible for giving medals anyway, so It obviously principally remains in their hands and if need be to higher powers?
(2.4) ... And lastly, that these actions will be backed up and remain consistent so as not to leave any room for accusations of preferential treatment or the opposite of the same?
- There has seemed to be scope for consistent application, and if there is room to still readdress miscarriages of justice if those are the case. But there doesn't seem to be any explicit reasons why it isn't consistent and will be interchangeable in the future?
I think that if we can easily answer "YES" to those simple questions then this thread should be done and we will all walk away knowing that this a fair and balanced situation.... However, if there is any hesitation, or even worse a "NO" response to any of those questions than It is clear there is a situation here that needs to be resolved.

Just some food for thought there.... It appears to be easy for some to say that this is the way it is going to be.... but in the end it has to have back-up and support

[Dako]

- Fostering debate can't be a bad thing by default, the GD thread on Blitz was relatively successful after all
Exclusion proving a rule? There were like 3 more such threads that had no success and the blitz case left a sour taste anyway.

- But they should be responsible for their own actions(which weren't of the most savoury), and if the following of a negative attitude fosters and encourages dissidence and is a role model for disruptive and inappropriate behaviour within the clan?
They should, but it is not written in rules so you should no enforce this particular rule on them just because it is "common knowledge". This is why we have laws printed in books.

- The guidelines didn't include specifics on offering warnings, and even then, there was a warning at page 21 after which the saga continued for another 20+ pages?
Well yes, but one could argue that post was a warning or not. If it was a warning then mods got to post their warnings more clear. Big red letters "THIS IS A LAST WARNING" should do the thing. If it was not the warning, than the case is mute. This is not about guidelines stating "first warning then penalty". It is a common courtesy of mods to notify people that they are about to use banhammer. If they don't practice it - people will not love them and the forum will get deserted quick or people will troll mods.

[Great-Ollie]

Thanks to Dako for a level headed approach here. Everyone is heated right now, and i am probably worst guy to take on this case because of my lack of restraint. My medal getting stripped has no bearing. I was not once inappropriate in the war thread, not once. The only time i got nasty was in a private pm to chemefreak after i had to contact him about why we were not issued medals. The rules are written and there is no reason that myself, i can only speak for myself, should ave lost his medal because of the actions of others. Secondly, to Leehar, why was our clan singled out after the disciplinarian publically admitted his hatred for our clan? We played by all his rules after our warning, we respected CC guidelines, we did everything we were suppose to do. tec805? griff? John Deere? why did they lose their medals? What comments were so bad that they did? I am sorry to the honest mods out their that you have to deal with this, i realize there are many mods who do take non bias approaches to situations, my point is this is not one of them.

[betiko]

This is starting to be a long thread and i suppose the longer it gets the more we are annoying people.

Just wanted to say that I do like Dako's approach and that i totally agree with his initial bullet point post. Thanks for your objective intervention!

Leehar, we can as well use common sense. If a mod doesn t like a behavior, he gives a clear warning to the person not to do it again, and if it has been respected you cannot hold responsible for what has been said before the warning.

I think that this discution has been going a bit too far since last night, and as many said, is not doing any good to the pack.
This is getting too personal between people, and the initial posts of this thread have gone a bit wild.

I do think though that chemefreak being judge and actor of all this is wrong.
-he has a history with some pack members aparently
-as a mod, he is a referee, therefore has to be impartial. he cannot give so many judgements about the people, the score, the level of the clan whatsoever. he has to remain neutral!!
-by being partial, he looses the neutrality a mod is supposed to have and is being personal. It is normal that in return he is not treated as a mod, but as a player from legion giving his opinion.
-the decision to strip medals to some of the players was clearly taken before the warning. why warn to behave or else... when there is already no comming back?
-only the winners get sanctioned. why is that?

This is why we have a feeling that things have not been done in a fair way. Now many replies here from pack members are just adding content and examples against our case, as it s turning into personal attacks. I m sure we can avoid this in the discution.
our aplogies for what has been said in the heat of the moment in this thread and in the war thread.
We just expect the same thing from others, not to get personal in order not to do it in return.

thanks for your attention and have a good day!

[grifftron]

I like how you guys keep saying chemefreak didn't act alone but he discussed this with the CDs (clan directors) lets point out there are only 2 clan mods (CDs) at the moment chemefreak and masli... Can we hear from masli please? Hope you guys talked this new method out with more then just the 2 of you

[L M S]

Coming from a guy who takes great joy in Clan-War-thread-shit-talking here.....

I gotta go with Cheme and friends on this one.

Sorry Pack.
You guys heaved 17 metric fuck-tons of shit talk during that war and imo, went overboard more than a few times, and that's just from what I am privy too.
Go re-read your war thread, then re-read it again as if you were your grandmother.

I'm all for having fun but you guys are the ones who made it personal, the Wars, the threads, the PM's, all of it. I'm all for pride in one's clan (Lord knows if you mess with one FOED, you get us all after you), but your sarcasm turned into open contempt and disrespect. You came off as the schoolyard bully...over and over and over. Not very nice.

I read/inferred several attempts to cool the thread down, maybe not in big red letters or whatever but still attempts were made I think.....and it's not the first War ya'll have been in that your commentary sort of rubbed people the wrong way.

Maybe or maybe not the penalty was harsh, not my decision. The rules are in black and white though and interpreting them is pretty easy.

Maybe you all should give up your medals for that War, to me that is the most fair..."live together, die alone", type stuff.

I have more but, gotta go to work, maybe I will finish my thought later. Unless of course I get blasted for this, in that case I'll just fade away.

[jghost7]

- Fostering debate can't be a bad thing by default, the GD thread on Blitz was relatively successful after all
Exclusion proving a rule? There were like 3 more such threads that had no success and the blitz case left a sour taste anyway.

- But they should be responsible for their own actions(which weren't of the most savoury), and if the following of a negative attitude fosters and encourages dissidence and is a role model for disruptive and inappropriate behaviour within the clan?
They should, but it is not written in rules so you should no enforce this particular rule on them just because it is "common knowledge". This is why we have laws printed in books.

- The guidelines didn't include specifics on offering warnings, and even then, there was a warning at page 21 after which the saga continued for another 20+ pages?
Well yes, but one could argue that post was a warning or not. If it was a warning then mods got to post their warnings more clear. Big red letters "THIS IS A LAST WARNING" should do the thing. If it was not the warning, than the case is mute. This is not about guidelines stating "first warning then penalty". It is a common courtesy of mods to notify people that they are about to use banhammer. If they don't practice it - people will not love them and the forum will get deserted quick or people will troll mods.

Agree.

Nasty situation.

Some words of advise from me for both sides (PACK and clan mods). You can ignore them if you want but I believe they will make our world a little bit better.

1. PACK, if you are not cool with mods decision - talk it to either other mods (side opinion) or take it straight to the Andy/KA. Public threads never do any good.
   
2. Mods, denying clan-leaders their medals because "they should be responsible for their clanmates" is total bs. You should not create rules during the ruling process. If you want, you can alter Medals Guidelines now but you should not apply this ruling on the current case.
   - But they should be responsible for their own actions(which weren't of the most savoury), and if the following of a negative attitude fosters and encourages dissidence and is a role model for disruptive and inappropriate behaviour within the clan?
   - What Dako said.
3. PACK, being mad doesn't help. Also having multiple people posting in the thread makes everything disorganized and uncontrollable. Choose 1-2 level-headed guys to be your speakers and stick with them.
4. Cheme, if you want to be firm, don't comment like "you see, you called me dickhead again". Proving they are wrong makes it look like you satisfy your inner call for superiority even if it is not like that.
5. PACK, be smarter next time and learn from your mistakes.
6. Masli, perfect position on this ruling.
7. PACK, you will not get your medals back
8. Mods, don't deny the timeline law! You posted warnings, they stopped, you got more reports for previous posts and you made a ruling over those reports.
   - The guidelines didn't include specifics on offering warnings, and even then, there was a warning at page 21 after which the saga continued for another 20+ pages?
   - Then again, the guidelines don't offer any specifics at all. It is stated in such a vague way, it is just used as a blanket statement to cover any interpretation they choose, thereby giving them the leeway to do what they want without worry for contravening the 'guideline'. The players and leaders have nothing to base the judgement of the line where it suddenly drops off into the stripping zone. So, that being said, it would be ridiculous to state that a warning would not be necessary. And yes, as Dako says, an all serious warning would be more appropriate, as a lot of the thread is fun or trash talk, so the big red letters do help.
9. PACK, just win more wars and get your medals with weaker clans :p.
10. Mods, getting baited is unacceptable, learn from C&A department. I thought THOTA-BPB thread taught you something but I guess it didn't. Well, this 2 threads are another lessons, take them!

I am done, thanks.

I guess I run the risk of double posting here but if anyone concerned would grant me a little latitude I would like to make a couple comments.... I think that there have been many "well thought out" posts in this thread and there have also been many "knee jerk reactions" as well... I myself am guilty of the later but this is obviously a topic that has sparked emotions beyond that of just playing a game....

I think that everyone should take a deep breath and consider the following:

Emotions have gotten involved in this issue and they have caused people to say things that in my opinion are "clouding" the real issue at hand... I see many comments citing accusations of "mod abuse" and then retorts stating "mod flaming" right behind them.... It seems to me that while some are taking this personal.... others are trying to take a level headed approach to this subject. I see people taking hard stances and making "matter of fact" statements that might not be warranted and yet others just asking simple questions that can't seem to be answered.

So I ask this..... before anyone concerned or even reading this thread decides to post a comment, please consider the following:

(1) .... Yes emotions have gotten involved (but is it a not a fair statement to say that those directly involved are bound to be a little bit more emotionally involved than those on the outside looking in?) In other words, It is easy to say to someone... "hey, get over it it is just a medal anyway", or "rules are rules and you got your punishment so just take it" .... but I think that most would take a different perspective when they are on the receiving end of these actions (this after all is only human)

and to be honest.... I really don't think it is about the medals at all.... rather, it is the perception of being singled out or disciplined (like no others have been before) in a controversial way

- But do you then not admit that others 'should've' been singled out and disciplined? (And I believe bpb members would disagree on that not having happened.) It has to start somewhere, and this has sufficient cause to implement discipline and is an efficient method of doing so? Hmmmm... perhaps, but it could have been done better, and it should involve all parties and not just one side. I can't agree with it being efficient. In fact, with the vagueness of the definition(or lack thereof) of the rule, it will likely prove to be utterly opposite. If they need to enforce such rules of conduct on clan war threads then there a) needs to have more definitive guidelines, and b) have a way to enforce on all parties(non-playing and losing) and not just the winners.

(2) .... I have no problem with members of this site being disciplined for their actions but I think that the key word here is "CONSISTENCY" ..... It is fine if we are trying to set some new standards for forum behavior but I think the following questions need to be asked:

(2.1) ... Are these guidelines clear and have they been explained to everyone that is in a position to help enforce them (ie; clan leaders and moderators)? I would assume so. The moderators obviously have a clear idea of what they believe constitutes punishable behaviour, and have also attempted to communicate the measures to the clan leaders who did not seem to be accepting of them? I don't think they are clear at all. The stated guideline is the definition of vague. Also, if there was explaining needing to be done, wouldn't it have been better to put it out publicly so that everyone could know what they were looking for?
(2.2) ... Are the disciplinary actions for these rule violations clear and will the be handled in a consistent manner? - The punishment is clear, and the implementation of it seems to be so as well. Well, not all the way clear...for the winners of the challenge perhaps, but what about other violators in the thread? How will they be punished? I don't see any stipulations for outside posters, or losing clan posters....Also, consistency has yet to be established, that of course will take time, and I think that in the end they will have to define it in order to be consistent. Good thing fair wasn't mentioned.
(2.3) ... And can we say that without a shadow of a doubt..... that in no way will these actions (or revocation of privileges) be handled at the sole discretion of the moderator in charge? There are only 2 CD's currently responsible for giving medals anyway, so It obviously principally remains in their hands and if need be to higher powers?hmmm...not sure.
(2.4) ... And lastly, that these actions will be backed up and remain consistent so as not to leave any room for accusations of preferential treatment or the opposite of the same?
- There has seemed to be scope for consistent application, and if there is room to still readdress miscarriages of justice if those are the case. But there doesn't seem to be any explicit reasons why it isn't consistent and will be interchangeable in the future? I would have to say i doubt it. One reason is that the judgement for any violation would be subjective and have no written standard on which to judge. Therefore, players not knowing the line, and the judges constantly moving it will lead to differing results with regards as to what is and isn't allowed. A warning system helps(big red letters...lol) and they would eventually have to define it anyways....besides, subjective judgement will almost always leave room for doubt with regards to preferential treatment whether it exists or not.
I think that if we can easily answer "YES" to those simple questions then this thread should be done and we will all walk away knowing that this a fair and balanced situation.... However, if there is any hesitation, or even worse a "NO" response to any of those questions than It is clear there is a situation here that needs to be resolved.

Just some food for thought there.... It appears to be easy for some to say that this is the way it is going to be.... but in the end it has to have back-up and support

It is easy to heap it all on the Pack and let them have it, but I feel that the important thing is being lost here. This rule is not fair as it currently stands. It was made with good intentions and may be the basis for something better down the road, but as is, is bound to cause a lot of problems.

Thanks,

J

[Qwert]

hmm,i dont read all, but from what i understand , big problem its that these hepend in some topic earlier(thota chalenge topic), where Mods lock Topic,but nobody are punished? Well then these is wrong decision from mod side, because warning and punishing policy need to be for all,so if you punished pack,you need to punishing everybody who make same problem like pack.
Only in these way, CD will be objective,and people will dont have subject to say that CD have double standards,and that some clans have privileges to not be stripped for medals.
Its these correct?

[Great-Ollie]

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Re: forum posts

Postby Great-Ollie on Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:02 pm
Ok guys i apologize too, let us move on and i will try and represent you better in the future. Let's all try and be cough, cough, respectful in forums, and to mods from this point on. Let's rebuild our rep and be the only undefeated clan on CC! Any problems keep in this private forum please, anything else positive feel free to post in threads. Thanks again. We did not get a fair shake, we were made an example of, so let us take the high road and destroy our competition. Hopefully in future mods can communicate a little better with us before they lay down rulings.

For the record we are done fighting. We cannot win this battle so it is foolish to continue. This is what i wrote to my guys in our private forum, so please see that i am trying to take the higher road. I only ask that in the future could rules, rulings, etc. be better communicated between mods, and the guilty parties. If you need help with that i would gladly throw my hat in the ring in whatever way i can. Secondly to IA, can we please play you again so i can get a medal? lol Just kidding, everyone who came to our defense thanks, we appreciate it. To chemefreak, sorry mate things got out of hand, i apologize for my end. Good day everyone.

[Incandenza]

A point of clarification, since it's come up more than a few times in this thread: the persons responsible for turning the THOTA-Bandits thread into the disgrace that it became did not, in point of fact, receive any medals, probably because they didn't win the actual challenge. Thank you.

[jghost7]

A point of clarification, since it's come up more than a few times in this thread: the persons responsible for turning the THOTA-Bandits thread into the disgrace that it became did not, in point of fact, receive any medals, probably because they didn't win the actual challenge. Thank you.

BINGO!

[danryan]

A point of clarification, since it's come up more than a few times in this thread: the persons responsible for turning the THOTA-Bandits thread into the disgrace that it became did not, in point of fact, receive any medals, probably because they didn't win the actual challenge. Thank you.

BOOOOM.

[tec805]

Uh oh, Lynch triple posted! Ban that rat-bastard for flaunting the rules!!!!

effective rap on the knuckles (correct usage heh Tec?

and I thought no one was going to notice my little comment

If it was not the warning, than the case is mute.

moot

Being uneducated I tend to overcompensate by being a GRAMMER NAZI

Hey look, I even came back to edit this post instead of adding another, as multi-posting cost me a medal and now I walk on egg-shells

[smegal69]

Coming from a guy who takes great joy in Clan-War-thread-shit-talking here.....

I gotta go with Cheme and friends on this one.

Sorry Pack.
You guys heaved 17 metric f*ck-tons of shit talk during that war and imo, went overboard more than a few times, and that's just from what I am privy too.
Go re-read your war thread, then re-read it again as if you were your grandmother.

I'm all for having fun but you guys are the ones who made it personal, the Wars, the threads, the PM's, all of it. I'm all for pride in one's clan (Lord knows if you mess with one FOED, you get us all after you), but your sarcasm turned into open contempt and disrespect. You came off as the schoolyard bully...over and over and over. Not very nice.

I read/inferred several attempts to cool the thread down, maybe not in big red letters or whatever but still attempts were made I think.....and it's not the first War ya'll have been in that your commentary sort of rubbed people the wrong way.

Maybe or maybe not the penalty was harsh, not my decision. The rules are in black and white though and interpreting them is pretty easy.

Maybe you all should give up your medals for that War, to me that is the most fair..."live together, die alone", type stuff.

I have more but, gotta go to work, maybe I will finish my thought later. Unless of course I get blasted for this, in that case I'll just fade away.

"Maybe you all should give up your medals for that War, to me that is the most fair..."live together, die alone", type stuff."

i cant speak for the other, just like GO can't control what we say....... but please take MY IA Vs The Pack medal and shove it, as i don't ant it any more

the only guys in the war that should have not got there Medals were General Risk and myself.

I posted sexist picture's, i posted more than once in a row...... and i didn't call chemefreak an Asshole but i did attack him personally

Dear Lord! I said to Practice...not Practice Getting Your Ass Kicked...

Pack 15
IA 36

geez chemfreak and i was starting to like you, but then you posted this and i found out that you are an Attorney........ you know you are only 1 step up the evolution ladder from a car sale's man.

good luck to you Immortal assassins, but i say we (The Pack) will take it by 3,
26 The Pack
23 Immortal assassins

maybe then chemfreak and The Legion will man up and except our challenge to them

so please !!!! the Power to Be, strip me of this medal, i don't wish this tarnished medal any longer

[betiko]

smeg, he didn t remove your medal cause 26+23= 49 and not 51, he probably felt sorry for you so he let it go! :p:p