THE OFFICIAL CC CONQUEROR’S CUP 4

[Masli]

The vote is going well for random. If it wins the vote I have trouble seeing how anyone will be able to change it. The top 20% of clans will have to deal with the fact that us other 80% exist.

In that case, I think most of the so called top 20% of clans won't play at all. This will become Newcomerscup XL

[ahunda]

I've asked this in CDF aswell, but does the seeding argument boil down to either or both of these, and am I missing something? (just trying to crystallise the exact points in a concise way rather than the long posts where it can be difficult to distill the exact point being mande)

1) Tradition - it's always been this way and it shouldn't change now
2) Achievement - to win the competition you should have to fight the top clans, a random easy draw devalues the achievement

If you want to put it like that: Option 2, obviously.

Though you make it sound wrong. Nobody wins the Cup without beating a top clan, no matter what seeding system is chosen. Even with the luckiest draw you will face a top clan sooner or later. (Unless no top clan participates, which currently seems to become a possibility.)

Here are the 2 main arguments against random draw, as I see it:

a) We risk getting totally one-sided brackets. Clan A having to beat 4 Top 10 clans to get to the finals, Clan B having to face not a single Top 10 clan to get to the same finals.

b) Under the old seeding system, opposition & challenges were getting increasingly tougher & tighter from round to round. With a random draw this would be completely, well, random: We might have seed #1 against seed #2 in the very first round then.

And some more comments:

Yes there is talk behind the scenes about a top 16 event in the works...

So effectively "they" do want to skip the first couple of rounds of the "traditional" format? Makes sense, why waste a couple of months eliminating the lesser clans when they can simply be excluded in the first place.

You are turning the entire debate on its head. It was the lower ranked clans, who asked for a change to the seeding system. The top clans would have had no problem playing under the same seeding system as all prior Cups used (and "waste a couple of months eliminating the lesser clans"). This was not an initiative of the top clans.

Now the high ranked clans did acknowledge the arguments for a change and came forward with several suggestions, how to change it, so that the tournament could become more interesting & fun for the lower ranked clans too. Alas, all their suggestions are being tossed out the window, and the lower ranked clans are pushing through an all-random draw, which is such an extreme change, that it turns the event into an entirely different tournament.

The idea to then simply opt out of this here event & organise one to our own liking is only a reaction to the initiative of the lower ranked clans, and their unwillingness to compromise.

The vote is going well for random. If it wins the vote I have trouble seeing how anyone will be able to change it. The top 20% of clans will have to deal with the fact that us other 80% exist.

So you too want to pretend, that the top clans didn´t suggest alternative solutions, that would have made this tournament more interesting & fun for lower ranked clans ?

I´m out of here.

And I sincerely hope, someone will step up & organise a serious tournament for those of us, who want that. The rest can play 2 Allcomers Cups then or even 3, and they can call it *Conquerors Cup* and *official* or whatever they like ...

[Arya]

Guys, calm down, cheme is only posting his personal opinion, like the rest of you. He is not representative of what we as CDs say in this case. Please do not read his comment that way. The vote is far from finished and the format of the cup has not been decided yet.

[The Voice]

Yes there is talk behind the scenes about a top 16 event in the works...

So effectively "they" do want to skip the first couple of rounds of the "traditional" format? Makes sense, why waste a couple of months eliminating the lesser clans when they can simply be excluded in the first place.

The vote is going well for random. If it wins the vote I have trouble seeing how anyone will be able to change it. The top 20% of clans will have to deal with the fact that us other 80% exist.

I don't think that's what is taking place, Cheme. As Ahunda alluded to, those in favor of keeping things how they were are split between 2 answers, leaving random to be perceived as the most popular. If you consolidate the former two options into one, I think we would see a different picture.

A completely random draw is such a major change that I'm left speechless as to how it even made it as an option to be voted on. I would even support a semi-random draw. Just not this nonsense. Why am I in favor of keeping this close to the way it was formatted in the past? Because I (and Foxy and Ahunda for that matter) understand how well it worked. So well, in fact, that this non-clan sanctioned event became a clan-sanctioned event.

Also, Chuuuuck is somewhere laughing at us right now

Fastposted: I have no qualms with Cheme, but his posts tend to be worded such that he angers typically level-headed people. Maybe he can clarify when he's stating his personal opinion and not the official CD one?

[Vid_FISO]

On neither thread have I advocated a full random draw, although I have mentioned it as very widely accepted method of running a cup comp in global sports.

I'm curious, how many global sporting competitions use a completely random draw? Certainly none that I follow, although I can't rule it out completely.

A little known English competition called the FA Cup for one. Yes, there are different entry stages for different levels of clubs, but the draw is random (unless you follow the "warm balls" conspiracy theory).

[niMic]

Ah yes, but then it's not completely random, then. It includes several tiers of seeding, for when clubs of different rankings get involved. So it's as much an example in favor of the other two options as the random.

[Masli]

I've asked this in CDF aswell, but does the seeding argument boil down to either or both of these, and am I missing something? (just trying to crystallise the exact points in a concise way rather than the long posts where it can be difficult to distill the exact point being mande)

1) Tradition - it's always been this way and it shouldn't change now
2) Achievement - to win the competition you should have to fight the top clans, a random easy draw devalues the achievement

If you want to put it like that: Option 2, obviously.

Though you make it sound wrong. Nobody wins the Cup without beating a top clan, no matter what seeding system is chosen. Even with the luckiest draw you will face a top clan sooner or later. (Unless no top clan participates, which currently seems to become a possibility.)

Here are the 2 main arguments against random draw, as I see it:

a) We risk getting totally one-sided brackets. Clan A having to beat 4 Top 10 clans to get to the finals, Clan B having to face not a single Top 10 clan to get to the same finals.

b) Under the old seeding system, opposition & challenges were getting increasingly tougher & tighter from round to round. With a random draw this would be completely, well, random: We might have seed #1 against seed #2 in the very first round then.

And some more comments:

Yes there is talk behind the scenes about a top 16 event in the works...

So effectively "they" do want to skip the first couple of rounds of the "traditional" format? Makes sense, why waste a couple of months eliminating the lesser clans when they can simply be excluded in the first place.

You are turning the entire debate on its head. It was the lower ranked clans, who asked for a change to the seeding system. The top clans would have had no problem playing under the same seeding system as all prior Cups used (and "waste a couple of months eliminating the lesser clans"). This was not an initiative of the top clans.

Now the high ranked clans did acknowledge the arguments for a change and came forward with several suggestions, how to change it, so that the tournament could become more interesting & fun for the lower ranked clans too. Alas, all their suggestions are being tossed out the window, and the lower ranked clans are pushing through an all-random draw, which is such an extreme change, that it turns the event into an entirely different tournament.

The idea to then simply opt out of this here event & organise one to our own liking is only a reaction to the initiative of the lower ranked clans, and their unwillingness to compromise.

I´m out of here.

And I sincerely hope, someone will step up & organise a serious tournament for those of us, who want that. The rest can play 2 Allcomers Cups then or even 3, and they can call it *Conquerors Cup* and *official* or whatever they like ...

+1

[Vid_FISO]

I'm finding this very amusing, the top 16 clans organize a closed cup competition, the benefit being for those seeded 16,15,14,13 ... being?

[niMic]

A good, well run competition?

[ahunda]

I'm finding this very amusing, the top 16 clans organize a closed cup competition, the benefit being for those seeded 16,15,14,13 ... being?

Fun fact: Participation is voluntary. If the idea of competing with the best does not appeal to you, don´t sign up. Pretty easy.

For those, who are debating this in private conversations already: I don´t see, why it should be limited to the Top 16. As long as proper rules & set up are in place, sign-ups should be open to anybody, who is interested in such a competition.

Meh. I should really stay away from this thread. It´s like a rotten tooth: Hurts like hell every time you touch it, and yet you can´t stop doing it ...

[Vid_FISO]

I'm finding this very amusing, the top 16 clans organize a closed cup competition, the benefit being for those seeded 16,15,14,13 ... being?

Fun fact: Participation is voluntary. If the idea of competing with the best does not appeal to you, don´t sign up. Pretty easy.

That's been my stance all along, nothing in it for us to get slaughtered 30+ - <10 so we shouldn't enter.

Meh. I should really stay away from this thread. It´s like a rotten tooth: Hurts like hell every time you touch it, and yet you can´t stop doing it ...

I've posted similar in our clan forum.

[Swifte]

All this talk about the 'benefit' to the bottom clans... I wish we could hear from the folks who signed up the last two sessions? CC2 got 29 clans to participate, the following year it grew to 33, both with a fully seeded format. They weren't held at gunpoint, but a lot of people chose to participate anyway. They must have seen something in it for them...

[Foxglove]

I'm finding this very amusing, the top 16 clans organize a closed cup competition, the benefit being for those seeded 16,15,14,13 ... being?

Fun fact: Participation is voluntary. If the idea of competing with the best does not appeal to you, don´t sign up. Pretty easy.

That's been my stance all along, nothing in it for us to get slaughtered 30+ - <10 so we shouldn't enter.

Perhaps you should support option 3 - it would allow you to play similarly ranked clans.

And like Ahunda said, participation is voluntary.

I believe we had less than 20 clans for CCup 1, and a year ago we had 33 sign up for CCup 3. That's a huge increase - all clans interested in a seeded winner-take-all tournament. If the tournament planned in Dako's organization thread had proceeded, I imagine we might have had even more than 33 this year. There are plenty of clans interested in participating.

If a clan feels that the competition is too strong in the Conqueror's Cup, they can probably play in both the Newcomer's Cup and the All Comer's Cup to build up their clan skill and experience.

[crispybits]

a) We risk getting totally one-sided brackets. Clan A having to beat 4 Top 10 clans to get to the finals, Clan B having to face not a single Top 10 clan to get to the same finals.

b) Under the old seeding system, opposition & challenges were getting increasingly tougher & tighter from round to round. With a random draw this would be completely, well, random: We might have seed #1 against seed #2 in the very first round then.

Firstly, the response to the properly concise arguments (thanks Ahunda - I wanted to make sure that I both understood clearly and that I wasn't putting words into anyone else's mouths)

In CCup3, if KORT win their semi and get to the final, they will have faced 33, 17, 24, 4 and at best 6, at worst 10. If AFOS win in the other semi-final then they will only have had to play against 1 other top 8 clan. Does this devalue CCup3? Does it make it less of an achievement if they go on to win it? Are there any complaints in the competition thread that KORT have had a "lucky easy ride"? (that last question is totally genuine, I skim read it several days ago looking for something else but I don't remember anything like that catching my eye.)

Have KORT's challenges got increasingly tough from round to round? If you look purely at the seeding no they havent up until the SFs.

You haven't mentioned another argument that I posted here, but you did so clearly in another post in CD&F and I hope you don't mind me reproducing a small section of that here because I think it's very relevant

To me the only argument for the all-random draw seems to be, that it would give lower ranked clans a chance to progress further in the tournament, simply by fortune of a lucky draw, facing only other lower ranked clans til let´s say the semi finals. And I am asking myself, what is the merit of that ?

With the Newcomers Cup & the Allcomers Cup we already have 2 regular clan tournaments, where lower ranked clans make it all the way to the semi finals and even the title. What sets the CCup apart and makes it special is the participation of the top clans, and that you have to beat at least 2-3 of the top 10 ranked clans to win the title. Circumventing this by a lucky draw takes away from the very accomplishment of winning this tournament.

Let´s take a look at the example of OSA: By only making it to the quarter finals in CCup 3, beating 2 higher seeded clans and then giving KORT a really tough challenge, they have earned a lot of respect, fair & square, all based on their performance. Am I the only one, who has noticed, how often they have been mentioned in recent debates ? This is, how you earn respect & a reputation in the clan world.

And I am suggesting, they would not have earned this amount of respect, had they reached even the semi finals merely by luck of the draw, facing only lower ranked clans on the way. In that case they´d been noticed & would now be remembered as the underdog, who had the luck of the draw.

This is, what I mean with the integrity & nature of this tournament. You can prove your worth, gain respect & reputation in this tournament like in no other, but you do it by playing tough competition and holding your own, not by slipping through round after round by pure luck.

I've highlighted the particular sections that make it very clear on multiple occasions what I mean.

The higher clans value the integrity of the tournament, and in that I don't think the higher and lower clans disagree. We see that integrity as meaning different things, but we both value it. But the main argument seems (to me) to revolve around "you have to beat top clans to earn respect, and beating clans from outside the top 8 or top 16 is very nice, but it's not really that much of an achievement." By this very argument if KORT win CCup3 it won't be all that. OSA cleared two top 8 clans out of their way. AFOS cleared another 3 if they get to the final, including AOC who cleared the final one. They only had to beat TOFU (if they do) from the top 8 to win the thing if that happens (and that is still a hell of a lot more likely than the weird scaremongering about all the top clans having to face each other in round 1, or the bracket being so lopsided that someone could get to the final without facing a real challenge along the way)

As mentioned in CD&F a day or two back I think FISO could be prepared to compromise onto option 3 (I'd have to go back and discuss it with my clan before I officially change the vote and I'm sure the clan leader will correct me if I'm out of line as he's following and posting in the thread) but the more the big guns threaten to throw their toys out of the pram and not play, the less likely this becomes. The lower clans didn't decide which options were going to be put on the table, and villifying us for voting for the one we see as the most fair way to organise a competition such as this, where everyone is treated equally and no clan gains special privelege or preferential treatment, isn't going to win over any hearts or minds.

We all want CCup4 to go ahead, and we all want every clan to be eager and enthusiastic to take part. If the higher clans get militant against the lower clans for simply making suggestions and voting for our preferences (with justifications for those preferences), then that's setting a very dangerous precedent for the future of the clan environment on this site.

Edit - also, to go back to the start of that quote:

To me the only argument for the all-random draw seems to be, that it would give lower ranked clans a chance to progress further in the tournament, simply by fortune of a lucky draw, facing only other lower ranked clans til let´s say the semi finals. And I am asking myself, what is the merit of that ?

The argument for the all random draw is that all clans should start a competition as equals. All clans should have an equal chance of drawing a top 3-4 clan in the first round as they do of drawing a bottom 3-4 clan. We respect the achievements and skills of the top clans, and they have earned their reputation and their place in the rankings. We deny them none of that. But this is a brand new run-through of this competition, and before it starts we object to being told that because of your reputation or your ranking that you should be given guaranteed easier matches to start with. We are not asking for guaranteed anything, we are simply asking that everyone has an equal chance of getting an easy or a difficult draw.

Under option 1 the toughest possible route for the 1 rank team to get ot the SFs is 32 - 16 - 8 - total rank 56, the easiest possible route for the 32 ranked team to get to the SFs is 1 - 25 - 29 - total rank 55. Why should the best clan in the competition's worst case scenario present them with an easier challenge than the worst clan's best case scenario?

[crispybits]

By the way, it is possible to do a totally random draw for round 1 and still balance the brackets within 4-5 ranking places in 99% of cases. I'm tired so will come back and explain that tomorrow if you want. Whether people would accept it is another matter, but it is possible.

[Bruceswar]

Here is the stance from the CD's. We want all clans to have fun. Lower ranked clans seem to favor random. Higher ranked clans want seeds. Lower ranked clans do not want to have to play a 32 vs 1 match.(Not all but some have expressed this) Once the vote is over the CD's will take all the info here and in CDF and formulate a plan where everybody is happy. We want all clans to want to play in this event. This is the biggest and largest clan event we have. We are going to make sure we keep it that way. While the debate is heated right now, we will all have to come to an understanding that not everybody wants the same things. We will put together an event that should please all sides involved.

[Keefie]

Can someone name me a sporting competition where 50% of the field are seeded ?

[josko.ri]

Can someone name me a sporting competition where 50% of the field are seeded ?

UEFA Champions League, Qualifying rounds 1,2,3. UEFA Europa League Qualifying rounds 1,2,3,4. FIFA World Cup Qualifiations, Elimination round..... Now when I answered your question, can you give example of any sports competition where draw is tOtally random?

[ahunda]

Oh well. Since crispybits addressed me directly, I will respond once more:

I am pretty tired too, but I think, your argument is false. If you are looking at any seeding system in official sports events, they always give an easier draw to the top players. It´s the nature of the beast.

Looking at the major football tournaments for example (World Cup both Qualification & Tournament, Euro Cup Qualification & Tournament, Champions League), it is always the same principle: The top teams are put in pot 1, the next strongest teams in pot 2, and so on til the weakest teams in pot 4 or 5 or whatever. Groups will then be drawn, so that each group has 1 team from each pot.

The result is, that the top teams from pot 1 face easier opposition in their group than the teams from pot 3 or 4 or 5. That´s just how it works. The purpose of the seeding is not to give every team the same chance to face a pot 1 team or not, but to make sure, that overall all groups have similar average strength, avoiding a lop-sided draw, where 1 group might end up with 3-4 teams from pot 1, and another group with not a single team from pot 1.

The seeding for the CCup so far has been done in a way, that we had the exact same average in every bracket: 1-32 on one side, 2-31 on the other. This created the perfect mathematical balance overall, but it also created certain problems like very uneven match-ups in the first rounds. This has been acknowledged, and changes & improvements can be discussed, for sure.

As for your questions concerning KORT: Them being the #1 seed, they naturally had the easiest draw under the old system. The system however also suggested, that they had to beat 3 Top 10 clans to win the tournament. And if everything had worked according to seeds (the higher seeded clans winning all match-ups), they´d have needed to beat the #4 clan in the semi finals, the #2 clan in the finals. Sounds like a tough challenge to me, and certainly an accomplishment, if achieved.

The simple truth is: You couldn´t have arranged a harder way for them under a seeding system in a knock out tournament, whilst maintaining overall balance & guaranteeing a similarly tough scenario for any of the other top clans, who were on the other side of the bracket

[Doc_Brown]

Here is the stance from the CD's. We want all clans to have fun. Lower ranked clans seem to favor random. Higher ranked clans want seeds. Lower ranked clans do not want to have to play a 32 vs 1 match.(Not all but some have expressed this) Once the vote is over the CD's will take all the info here and in CDF and formulate a plan where everybody is happy. We want all clans to want to play in this event. This is the biggest and largest clan event we have. We are going to make sure we keep it that way. While the debate is heated right now, we will all have to come to an understanding that not everybody wants the same things. We will put together an event that should please all sides involved.

Maybe it's just me, but I interpret this as basically saying, "It would be nice if everyone voted for some option 3 or a related compromise position, since that's what you're going to get regardless of how the vote turns out." Realistically, I see this playing out one of a couple different ways:
1) The clans vote for random seeding.
a) CDs overrule the vote and institute seeded brackets of some sort. Players roll their eyes at the CDs for taking away the tournament from Dako for not ceding some level of control to a clan vote, then they turn around and ignore a clan vote themselves. Some clans sit out due to the hypocrisy of those heading the tournament. Others sit out due to frustration at being told their vote would count only to find out it doesn't. CCup4 leaves a bad taste in a lot of mouths.
b) Random seeding is used. The top clans sit out of CCup4 and decide to start their own tournament with rankings used to determine the brackets. Perhaps they open it up to any clan that wants to participate. The Official CCup loses relevance.
2) The clans vote to use rankings to seed the brackets (either option 1 or 3)
The vote is approved, and rankings are used to seed the brackets. Some of the lower ranked clans dislike the format and choose to sit out. The response given is, "No worries. No one expected you to win anyway. You'll probably enjoy the format in one of the other cups better anyway." CCup4 goes on, and the controversy fades from memory within a couple months.

Now, I may be completely off base with all of this. My interpretations are based solely on what I've read in the public threads, and not on any PMs or discussions within my clan forum. In any case, I don't see any good outcome if the vote is for random seeding. Let's be honest. If you have a case where clans 1-8 all come and demand you go with option A or they won't participate, while clans 31-38 demand option B or they won't participate. If you're trying to make your tournament a premier event, you go with option A. This isn't about elitism or anything. It's simple economics.

[IcePack]

Here is the stance from the CD's. We want all clans to have fun. Lower ranked clans seem to favor random. Higher ranked clans want seeds. Lower ranked clans do not want to have to play a 32 vs 1 match.(Not all but some have expressed this) Once the vote is over the CD's will take all the info here and in CDF and formulate a plan where everybody is happy. We want all clans to want to play in this event. This is the biggest and largest clan event we have. We are going to make sure we keep it that way. While the debate is heated right now, we will all have to come to an understanding that not everybody wants the same things. We will put together an event that should please all sides involved.

Maybe it's just me, but I interpret this as basically saying, "It would be nice if everyone voted for some option 3 or a related compromise position, since that's what you're going to get regardless of how the vote turns out." Realistically, I see this playing out one of a couple different ways:
1) The clans vote for random seeding.
a) CDs overrule the vote and institute seeded brackets of some sort. Players roll their eyes at the CDs for taking away the tournament from Dako for not ceding some level of control to a clan vote, then they turn around and ignore a clan vote themselves. Some clans sit out due to the hypocrisy of those heading the tournament. Others sit out due to frustration at being told their vote would count only to find out it doesn't. CCup4 leaves a bad taste in a lot of mouths.
b) Random seeding is used. The top clans sit out of CCup4 and decide to start their own tournament with rankings used to determine the brackets. Perhaps they open it up to any clan that wants to participate. The Official CCup loses relevance.
2) The clans vote to use rankings to seed the brackets (either option 1 or 3)
The vote is approved, and rankings are used to seed the brackets. Some of the lower ranked clans dislike the format and choose to sit out. The response given is, "No worries. No one expected you to win anyway. You'll probably enjoy the format in one of the other cups better anyway." CCup4 goes on, and the controversy fades from memory within a couple months.

Now, I may be completely off base with all of this. My interpretations are based solely on what I've read in the public threads, and not on any PMs or discussions within my clan forum. In any case, I don't see any good outcome if the vote is for random seeding. Let's be honest. If you have a case where clans 1-8 all come and demand you go with option A or they won't participate, while clans 31-38 demand option B or they won't participate. If you're trying to make your tournament a premier event, you go with option A. This isn't about elitism or anything. It's simple economics.

Shortly after that post, KORT changed their vote from Seeding Option 1 (the old way) to seeding option 3a.
3a:

R1: Clans ranked 17-24 are randomly paired with the clans ranked 25-32
R2: Clans ranked 9-16 are randomly paired with the winners from R1
R3 Clans ranked 1-8 clans are randomly paired with the winers from R2
QF: Remainng clans ranked 1-4 are randomly paired with those ranked 4-8
SF: Remaining clans ranked 1-2 are randomly paried with those ranked 3-4

My guess is thats the probable "event that will please all sides" in their eyes....but i could be wrong.

[Doc_Brown]

To add to what Ahunda said, the argument about higher ranked clans having an easier path has to be true because they never play themselves. As an illustration, consider a simplified situation where only clans 1 and 2 are present. Clan 1 faces an average ranking double what Clan 2 does in a path to win the event. A bracket containing clans 1 and 32 will necessarily be tougher for clan 32 simply because they have to play clan 1 and easier for clan 1 because they play clan 32. You can balance sides of the bracket, but you can't even it out for every single team.

[jetsetwilly]

First and foremost we must let the vote complete as we still don't have votes from a large number of clans. Clearly if random wins outright (takes 50% of the vote) then some element of a random draw must be included in the final format.

Given the strong views felt by many it would remiss of us to plough ahead with a fully random draw without at least trying to find a compromise position first. I have already suggested one on this thread and we would be happy to hear others. Constructive posts that can help us find a happy medium would be most welcome.

[crispybits]

As for your questions concerning KORT: Them being the #1 seed, they naturally had the easiest draw under the old system. The system however also suggested, that they had to beat 3 Top 10 clans to win the tournament. And if everything had worked according to seeds (the higher seeded clans winning all match-ups), they´d have needed to beat the #4 clan in the semi finals, the #2 clan in the finals. Sounds like a tough challenge to me, and certainly an accomplishment, if achieved.

The simple truth is: You couldn´t have arranged a harder way for them under a seeding system in a knock out tournament, whilst maintaining overall balance & guaranteeing a similarly tough scenario for any of the other top clans, who were on the other side of the bracket

Don't feel you have to respond if you want to stay out of the thread as you mentioned before Ahunda, I'm addressing points rather than who made them.

Nope this is true you couldn't have arranged a theoretically harder way for them to progress to the final under an option 1 style full seeding system. It could have happened under a random draw though. Just because under a system that seeds 100% of the clans and then creates massively lopsided games involving the top clans until at least the QFs could not have given a tougher draw, doesn't mean that other systems could not, or that this is indeed the toughest test they could possibly have faced.

The fact remains that under such a system, the hardest possible run to the SFs for the top rank (i.e. if all matches went to seed which given CCup3 is about 75% of the time) that would happen 42% of the time, is still easier than the easiest possible run faced by their first round opponents, and this favourable run would only happen 1.5% of the time.

Don't you see that this is grossly unfair? Why is the lowest ranked clan of the 32 guaranteed a tougher run to the SFs than the highest ranked clan? Why are they not treated equally by the draw, and let the actual games and wars decide who is better? As has been mentioned it will still be a top clan - as I said you guys are skilled and we respect that - but we don't respect this sense of entitlement to have things as easy as possible for yourself under the guise of tradition or credibility. If you truly valued tradition, none of you would be threatening to go off and have your own competition, THIS competition would be too important to you for that. If you truly valued credibility, you wouldn't be trying to force such a massive advantage over clans you already know are weaker than you before a game is even played.

Like I said before, we all want everyone to play CCup4, and there is room for compromise. I understand your problem with the random draw, which is why I've said both that there is a way to balance the brackets, and that FISO would show willingness to move towards option 3, but only if discussions are civil and we don't feel like we're being forced there at gun point because some/most/all(?) of the top clans want it their way or no way at all.

[crispybits]

Posted this in CDF but also worth opening to the wider audience

Maybe I should try and explain how a balanced random draw could work. I'll do a random draw using bits of paper in a hat now, and the number in brackets afterwards is the sum of the ranks, and the difference between that sum and 33 - the sum of ranks for every game as under option 1:

24v6 (30/-3)
25v3 (28/-5)
26v28 (54/+21)
23v13 (36/+3)
31v1 (32/-1)
14v20 (34/+1)
21v2 (23/-10)
15v7 (22/-11)
16v8 (24/-9)
5v10 (15/-18)
12v9 (21/-12)
17v4 (21/-12)
19v29 (48/+15)
32v18 (50/+17)
11v22 (33/-)
27v30 (57/+24)

Now, you split the draw into two sides, A and B, by first placing the highest positive difference from each draw into one side, then placing the highest negative difference into the same side, then doing the same for the other side, rinse and repeat (flip a coin or something where 2 equal differences exist)

Side A
25v3
23v13
21v2
5v10
17v4
32v18
11v22
27v30

Side B
24v6
26v28
31v1
14v20
15v7
16v8
12v9
19v29

Now side A has 2, 3, 4 and 5 in it, and side B has 1, 6, 7 and 8 in it, so there is a slight imbalance there, but the two halves of the bracket match up overall (there will be higher mid-low range clans in side B) - for reference side A has an overall balance of -1 (it's one rank harder than average) and side B has an overall balance of +1.

Do that once more for side A1 and side A2 and side B1 and side B2, and you have four quarters of roughly equal strength. Then within each of the four quarters, draw a number between 1 and 4 at random for each matchup.

There you have it, a totally randomised draw, that treats everyone equally, yet still retains the balance of the tournament and the ability to schedule in advance, and is just as likely to get tougher in each round as option 1.