Letter to the Clans of CC

[freakns]

Hello Clan World,
Our aim was to make a cup that incorporate every clans wishes to some extent. We thought the best way to do that was to put it up for a vote. Clearly this has not worked and we apologize. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and we should not have put formats in their entirety up for vote we should have picked elements to be voted on, then we may have got a more well rounded format at the end. Our intentions for fully democratic clan world have failed.

We are now faced with a difficult decision...

Go ahead with the vote as is and face many clans not wanting to participate.
Listen to everything that is said and create a new format trying our best to create a tournament that goes some way to please everyone...

Neither are perfect options.

Cards on the table. This voting process has been far from democratic. We wanted it to be discussed in the CDF and public domain, but what we have been faced with is back room dealings, some members attempting to coerce others via pm, and now threats from some of the top clans that will not participate in the cup and they will make an elitist tournament if they don't get their wishes met. Some even voting for opposite of round 1 voting to cement the deal. Because of this democracy has been undermined. The vote is tainted and unfair. We have no choice but to stop the vote at this point.

Everybody seems mad with each other. People have been foeing others, people are mad at the CD's, people are mad at just about everybody and anything to do with this process right now. We as clans should be above that. With the support and backing of rdsrds2120 we have chose to stop the vote and take an option in the middle of what people want. Some seeding and some randomness. We really want all clans to come play and have some fun. This decision will likely not sit well with everybody, but at this point we doubt anything will.

We will be proceeding with a random / seeded first round and a set bracket from then on out. The cup has a long proud tradition which we were in danger of losing sight of and we feel a jump to full random is too much right now. We feel that introducing random in this way gives the lowest rank clans a better chance to enjoy the cup for more than 1 round while letting us test the waters with random.

What does this mean. It means top 16 seeds will be seeded and all others will be randomized. The bracket from then on will be set to keep things rolling. Since we are late getting started and the finals of CC4 have not started, we will have to push a bit faster to keep on time. We do not know how many clans will sign up, but assuming we get over 32 clans it means someone will have a play in round before the round of 32. How will this be determined? Anybody from the randomized section could be used in this round. The top X clans will be in wait for the round of 32 until those matches are finished up. Sign ups for this event will start on Friday 4/5/2013.

Enjoy the cup!

CD Team

OK, i will try to be gentle as i can and try not to insult anyone with pointing out all the flaws you have in this post and CCup4 preparations as well. i will not address paragraph by paragraph because lots of things are overlapping.
im afraid that this post will go read but not taken as it should, as my previous posts regarding CD actions because no matter what have been said, you have prove that you just love learning from your mistakes instead of listen. but nevertheless, lets get going.

1. you can not go from "fully democratic" to "fully absolutist" in one day. people will not accept it.
2. you cant blame others for CDs failing. sentences like "we apologize for wishing democracy but clans were backstabbing us" means that you are not apologizing but blaming others. clans have rights to vote as they wish for, and they can change their vote as they wish. that is democracy, not backstabbing. just as coercing. i dont see anything wrong with ppl trying to persuade other ppl to vote for their benefit. now, since those votes are not for your benefit, you are thinking of them as wrongful? oh my...
3. cards are the best part, i just love how you write your intentions hidden between lines. you pretty much said "after we didnt like initial voting, we put unreachable limit of 75% for one option, but clans decide to put end to democracy by changing votes so that one option(which we dont like) gets 75%". i mean, we are democratic, but if you vote against are wishes, thats against democracy! who that reminds me of? oh, yes, my former dictator Slobodan Milosevic, he was great democrat as long as every one agreed with him... just as about every american president or british premier... so you all are americans, brits or god forbid serbs(i mean, i could stand Milosevic, he was dictator and criminal, but you have to admire his ability to f*ck his ppl in the ass for more then 10 years, and 50% of them still loved him... you are not loved from day one, and all the fucking you are trying to do somehow ends up in your rear end)
4. we as clans ARE above that... you as clan directors, im not so sure.

good luck with sign ups!

ps. you want to be democratic? instead of fake apologize, step down as head CD, have clan representative vote who do we want to run CD. if you have done things good im sure you will be voted easily.

[Night Strike]

Exactly - the leader has said to ask Eddie, and you're bypassing that leader's instruction because Eddie has given you an answer you don't like. Pitiful.

Agreed. If the leader is gone during event signups and his designee doesn't want to sign the clan up for the event, then so be it. The leader made a choice in naming his designee. If he doesn't like what the designee chose, then he won't make that mistake again. If AKA doesn't sign up for the event, then let them not sign up. One clan doesn't make or break an event. Put together an event and let those who want to participate participate and those who do not want to participate not participate. Besides, it'll only help the longevity problem.

[crispybits]

ps. you want to be democratic? instead of fake apologize, step down as head CD, have clan representative vote who do we want to run CD. if you have done things good im sure you will be voted easily.

That's not a bad idea at all - why not have a CD team voted in by the clans and with their position up for re-election every 12 months? I'm not going to criticise any individual (though I will give special credit to Leehar for being the one who in my opinion made most effort to understand the arguments for and against different CCup setups), but if the CDs are here to serve the clan community, shouldn't there be accocuntability when things get screwed up? What better accountability than having to stand for re-election?

Also, beyond purely technical questions to the programmers I fail to see why any decision making process of the CDs should not be transparent and public (at least within the CDF forum). I for one would be very interested to see how they came to this latest decision on everyone's behalf.

[eddie2]

ps. you want to be democratic? instead of fake apologize, step down as head CD, have clan representative vote who do we want to run CD. if you have done things good im sure you will be voted easily.

That's not a bad idea at all - why not have a CD team voted in by the clans and with their position up for re-election every 12 months? I'm not going to criticise any individual (though I will give special credit to Leehar for being the one who in my opinion made most effort to understand the arguments for and against different CCup setups), but if the CDs are here to serve the clan community, shouldn't there be accocuntability when things get screwed up? What better accountability than having to stand for re-election?

Also, beyond purely technical questions to the programmers I fail to see why any decision making process of the CDs should not be transparent and public (at least within the CDF forum). I for one would be very interested to see how they came to this latest decision on everyone's behalf.

+1

[BGtheBrain]

*****

[freakns]

ps. you want to be democratic? instead of fake apologize, step down as head CD, have clan representative vote who do we want to run CD. if you have done things good im sure you will be voted easily.

That's not a bad idea at all - why not have a CD team voted in by the clans and with their position up for re-election every 12 months? I'm not going to criticise any individual (though I will give special credit to Leehar for being the one who in my opinion made most effort to understand the arguments for and against different CCup setups), but if the CDs are here to serve the clan community, shouldn't there be accocuntability when things get screwed up? What better accountability than having to stand for re-election?

Also, beyond purely technical questions to the programmers I fail to see why any decision making process of the CDs should not be transparent and public (at least within the CDF forum). I for one would be very interested to see how they came to this latest decision on everyone's behalf.

wouldnt that be nice
I bet we could hit 75% in favor of this

[Keefie]

I already have a draught proposal that I've been working on for the past hour.

[Chewie1]

One clan doesn't make or break an event.

No, but it seems as a couple of high rank ones can!

[Qwert]

i shall say these only once- option 3

[Vid_FISO]

i shall say these only once- option 3

You said it a lot more than once!

[crispybits]

Without wanting to be cruel qwert, this was the result of the first round of voting in CDF:

Option 1 - 12
Option 2 - 17
Option 3 - 8
Did not vote - 12

Option 3 was creative and intelligent and well thought out, all credit where it's due, but going by the voting it simply wasnt popular and the CDs would probably have got even more flak than they're getting now if they'd decided on that one.

[Doc_Brown]

I hate to say I told you so, but...
viewtopic.php?f=443&t=187980&start=165#p4115784

... Realistically, I see this playing out one of a couple different ways:
1) The clans vote for random seeding.
a) CDs overrule the vote and institute seeded brackets of some sort. Players roll their eyes at the CDs for taking away the tournament from Dako for not ceding some level of control to a clan vote, then they turn around and ignore a clan vote themselves. Some clans sit out due to the hypocrisy of those heading the tournament. Others sit out due to frustration at being told their vote would count only to find out it doesn't. CCup4 leaves a bad taste in a lot of mouths. ...

[eddie2]

I hate to say I told you so, but...
viewtopic.php?f=443&t=187980&start=165#p4115784

... Realistically, I see this playing out one of a couple different ways:
1) The clans vote for random seeding.
a) CDs overrule the vote and institute seeded brackets of some sort. Players roll their eyes at the CDs for taking away the tournament from Dako for not ceding some level of control to a clan vote, then they turn around and ignore a clan vote themselves. Some clans sit out due to the hypocrisy of those heading the tournament. Others sit out due to frustration at being told their vote would count only to find out it doesn't. CCup4 leaves a bad taste in a lot of mouths. ...

rofl and did i not respond to that saying something along the lines of they would not be that stupid...

[Vid_FISO]

I presume there's nothing (other than having the time/ inclination) to stop josko.ri/ qwert creating a cup comp along the lines that they put forward? Popularity proven by entry levels?

[crispybits]

I think it's more that there is limited player time to participate in big competitions like this, and with CL5, CC4, ACC, RL, ASAP and C3PO (some of those might not actually be real, I gets confused) all taking up player time, would enough clans have spaces in their schedules to put in yet more wars.

Maybe a test run as a quads team tournament or something to have a test of if there are any issues caused by this structure? (apologies if this has already been done, I'm not a big visitor to the tournaments forum) and if it's a huge success re-suggest it next year with data and results to point at?

[Qwert]

HELP FREAK!
these its discrimination! everybody in these topic can say all opposite from Bruceswar first post, but when i say same, then this its not ok!
Like you say " option 2,option 2" then i also can say "option 3,option 3,option 3"
FREEDOM OF SPEECH !

[eddie2]

HELP FREAK!
these its discrimination! everybody in these topic can say all opposite from Bruceswar first post, but when i say same, then this its not ok!
Like you say " option 2,option 2" then i also can say "option 3,option 3,option 3"
FREEDOM OF SPEECH !

no qwert. i think you are missing the point of this, option 2 was voted for and because it is not what 1 or 2 top clan players wanted they then changed it to option 1a,b 2a,b thats what all of this is about clans voted and it came back that no seeding would take place and it would be a pure random tourney. they added a seeding option in 2b... and asked clans to re-vote. i will bet you that if option 1 won the vote the 2nd vote would not of happened nor would any of these extra options. So all that has happened her is they have done exactly the same as what they accused dako of doing but worse because they done it on the pretense of giving the cup to the clans... So all that can now be said is who is going to take this event out of the hands of the cd's.. because like what they have said they have not listened to us so should not be running this thing. but do as you plz because i know maybe 1 or 2 clans will not take part but they are lower down clans as the higher clans will not miss this event no matter what the outcome of format is because it will always be aimed at getting top clans into the finals and lower clans no chance at all.

[chapcrap]

With the merger of AOC and Empire, will they be allowed in, even though they do not meet the requirements?

If they are allowed in, where will they be seeded?

[Bruceswar]

With the merger of AOC and Empire, will they be allowed in, even though they do not meet the requirements?

If they are allowed in, where will they be seeded?

Just like Atlantis They will be seeded at the back. Both will be allowed in and will be randomized.

[Chariot of Fire]

That doesn't make much sense to me tbh. If an already strong clan absorbs a whole bunch of players from another strong clan they get seeded bottom?

The Empire/AoC results could be amalgamated on the F400 to find their position, or simply leave the higher of the two clans exactly where they currently stand on the ladder.

If a Fortune 500 company acquires a new business it doesn't fall out of the Top 500. Same deal here isn't it?

Has this been thought through carefully?

[eddie2]

With the merger of AOC and Empire, will they be allowed in, even though they do not meet the requirements?

If they are allowed in, where will they be seeded?

Just like Atlantis They will be seeded at the back. Both will be allowed in and will be randomized.

well this sucks dont it... once again showing you don't really know what you are doing....

there is really 2 options here

1)merger with empire and aoc they merge into one of them 2 clans and change the name which then leaves them in the position they were in.

2)they start a new clan which then makes them not eligible for this event..

like what happened with time i was given the option of taking over the time clan and name change or start new clan making us not eligable for this event...

this just once again proves you are giving more options for higher ranked clans over what has been given to lower ranked ones previously in this event.. At the end of it they have just merged what if it dont work out and they split again in 3 or 4 months that will cause chaos..

same with atlantis who are a break away from bofm who i dont think have completed a challenge yet should be treated the same as the pack and they were only 6 games away from meeting the sign up requirements of completing 2 challenges to join but were not allowed.... i do not mean any offense to the 2 clans but guidelines have been set previously in how they handle this kind of thing and should be followed.

[jetsetwilly]

That doesn't make much sense to me tbh. If an already strong clan absorbs a whole bunch of players from another strong clan they get seeded bottom?

The Empire/AoC results could be amalgamated on the F400 to find their position, or simply leave the higher of the two clans exactly where they currently stand on the ladder.

If a Fortune 500 company acquires a new business it doesn't fall out of the Top 500. Same deal here isn't it?

Has this been thought through carefully?

Hey, speaking as me here, ignore my colours !

We really hoped we could find a way to do just that. Ice was pondering whether he could combine the two set of stats as one on the F400 but he said he had spoken to a few people who felt that was inappropriate.

What we did not want to do is literally have one clan absorb the other as it would feel like a take over. I don't know that icepack has made his mind up yet, he did suggest we open a debate if we disagreed.

It's a little tricky as Leehar and I are both CD's and we are not seeking any favouritism here and don't want to push it.

[eddie2]

That doesn't make much sense to me tbh. If an already strong clan absorbs a whole bunch of players from another strong clan they get seeded bottom?

The Empire/AoC results could be amalgamated on the F400 to find their position, or simply leave the higher of the two clans exactly where they currently stand on the ladder.

If a Fortune 500 company acquires a new business it doesn't fall out of the Top 500. Same deal here isn't it?

Has this been thought through carefully?

Hey, speaking as me here, ignore my colours !

We really hoped we could find a way to do just that. Ice was pondering whether he could combine the two set of stats as one on the F400 but he said he had spoken to a few people who felt that was inappropriate.

What we did not want to do is literally have one clan absorb the other as it would feel like a take over. I don't know that icepack has made his mind up yet, he did suggest we open a debate if we disagreed.

It's a little tricky as Leehar and I are both CD's and we are not seeking any favouritism here and don't want to push it.

fair play for this jetset.. but since you and leehar are both clan mods and have decided to start a new clan you should then be setting a example to others and not take part or try get a really quick war in with someone to qualify, but with the sign up date as short as it is that might be impossible... or come join us in the newcomers cup

[cooldeals]

That doesn't make much sense to me tbh. If an already strong clan absorbs a whole bunch of players from another strong clan they get seeded bottom?

The Empire/AoC results could be amalgamated on the F400 to find their position, or simply leave the higher of the two clans exactly where they currently stand on the ladder.

If a Fortune 500 company acquires a new business it doesn't fall out of the Top 500. Same deal here isn't it?

Has this been thought through carefully?

Hey, speaking as me here, ignore my colours !

We really hoped we could find a way to do just that. Ice was pondering whether he could combine the two set of stats as one on the F400 but he said he had spoken to a few people who felt that was inappropriate.

What we did not want to do is literally have one clan absorb the other as it would feel like a take over. I don't know that icepack has made his mind up yet, he did suggest we open a debate if we disagreed.

It's a little tricky as Leehar and I are both CD's and we are not seeking any favouritism here and don't want to push it.

Why is this so complicated? The drama in here makes me laugh.

I think Bruce and eddie are both right on this one. If they want to be NEW they should be "randomized". If they want a high seeding then they can bite the bullet have Empire members join AOC (higher F400 ranking so higher seed), rename the clan, clean out the clan forum and realize it's a merger not a takeover. They are both literally the same thing so I guess the Empire of Chaos needs to choose which path they would like randomization or seeding.

The only thing that does not make sense is "combining" their records in the F400 and giving them a seed. Isn't one of AOC's best wins over Empire?

[BGtheBrain]

*****