Please..... TWEAK the point system

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Please..... TWEAK the point system

Postby army of nobunaga on Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:55 pm

Concise description:
The current point system creates paper champions. We have conquerors and wanna be conquerors that play nothing but 1vs1 freestyle agaisnt slower weaker players, we have top players that actually create private games for privates and cooks. We have a point system in which a good player named blitzaholic is set upon by his fellow players because of his methods to gain rank!
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=119100


why? Why does our point system have to be so biased towards unsportsmanlike like competition? The Spirit of CC is dying because of this point system. And when it is dead, when the average person realizes he/she can never be in the top 50 because they dont want to play cheesey cheat like games, then the site will die.



Specifics/Details:
*Less points awarded for team games won, more points lost for team games lost.. Make it harder for 4 generals that play nothing but quads to move up.
*Less points, far less when you beat a cook or private. Far less. More points taken than current when said cook or private beats you.
*More points for people that win singles matches, and more points as there are more people involved in the match.
*It all just needs to be tweaked. Someone that wins 40% of 5-8 man rooms, should be able to overtake the team playing people and the noob farmers.

How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:
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Re: Please..... TWEAK the point system

Postby ljex on Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:59 pm

army of nobunaga wrote:Concise description:
The current point system creates paper champions. We have conquerors and wanna be conquerors that play nothing but 1vs1 freestyle agaisnt slower weaker players, we have top players that actually create private games for privates and cooks. We have a point system in which a good player named blitzaholic is set upon by his fellow players because of his methods to gain rank!
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=119100


why? Why does our point system have to be so biased towards unsportsmanlike like competition? The Spirit of CC is dying because of this point system. And when it is dead, when the average person realizes he/she can never be in the top 50 because they dont want to play cheesey cheat like games, then the site will die.



Specifics/Details:
*Less points awarded for team games won, more points lost for team games lost.. Make it harder for 4 generals that play nothing but quads to move up.
*Less points, far less when you beat a cook or private. Far less. More points taken than current when said cook or private beats you.
*More points for people that win singles matches, and more points as there are more people involved in the match.
*It all just needs to be tweaked. Someone that wins 40% of 5-8 man rooms, should be able to overtake the team playing people and the noob farmers.

How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:
Fair play and sportsmanship that is promoted always benefits all.


LOL that just makes it better for the 5-8 man players...the point system is flawed but most people realize that points dont indicate a players skill
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Re: Please..... TWEAK the point system

Postby army of nobunaga on Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:05 pm

ljex wrote:LOL that just makes it better for the 5-8 man players...the point system is flawed but most people realize that points dont indicate a players skill



for harder games to win like 8 man doubles and singles (non 2 man or 3 man) there should be a kicker bonus

there SHOULD be.

You admit the point system is flawed yet you are against a point tweak?
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Re: Please..... TWEAK the point system

Postby army of nobunaga on Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:07 pm

points should be graded on how statistically probable it is in winning that game!

Quads and 1vs1, you friggin already have a 50% chance of winning. ... So tweak this... Make it really much harder for people that wimp out and only play the games they win 80% of the time at. MAke them prove they are skilled. Make them join the CC masses and not play with 3 other colonels and generals beating up on free account privates.

MAkes no sense not to change it to me... Which means in 1 week this thread will be on page 3 and forgotten.

o well
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Re: Please..... TWEAK the point system

Postby danfrank on Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:09 pm

The job of the moderator is to put down and make you feel less than what you are. They feel as if they should be put on a pedastil since there names are in a different color and they have a banner under there name...
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Re: Please..... TWEAK the point system

Postby army of nobunaga on Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:19 pm

well man, you are preaching to the choir on that one... but because you posted this... edinsweet will lock this soon im sure. A few of them are ok though... just ljex and edin and lord potter make it seem like its their mission in life to follow me from post to post.
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Re: Please..... TWEAK the point system

Postby TheForgivenOne on Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:32 pm

danfrank, keep it on topic.

One thing i didn't get in your explanation - *Teams awarded less for team wins, *Teams lose more for a loss. How does that make sense O.o
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Re: Please..... TWEAK the point system

Postby army of nobunaga on Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:36 pm

TheForgivenOne wrote:danfrank, keep it on topic.

One thing i didn't get in your explanation - *Teams awarded less for team wins, *Teams lose more for a loss. How does that make sense O.o



atm there is a set amount for when you lose or win agaist a team based upon their combined rank.

well if you win against that team, modify or tweak it where its not as many points. There is a modulation formula im sure, It needs different modifiers.
If you lose against said team make it worth more points.

This is off rank. So its hard to explain. the modifying standard needs to be pretty much be less points for a win against a team with less rank.
And in GENERal team games where you already have a 50% chance of winning going in, should be worth far less in points than a game that you have a 13% chance of winning going in.

there should be less points on the table for games that are easy to win in other words, and the modulater for that point distribution needs to be increased for rank discrepancy.


God Im not good at communicating online. I know what I mean, but I doubt anyone gets this.
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Re: Please..... TWEAK the point system

Postby Chuuuuck on Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:37 pm

army of nobunaga wrote:points should be graded on how statistically probable it is in winning that game!

Quads and 1vs1, you friggin already have a 50% chance of winning. ... So tweak this... Make it really much harder for people that wimp out and only play the games they win 80% of the time at. MAke them prove they are skilled. Make them join the CC masses and not play with 3 other colonels and generals beating up on free account privates.

MAkes no sense not to change it to me... Which means in 1 week this thread will be on page 3 and forgotten.

o well


This thread will go to page 3 and be forgotten because it is a terrible idea. Yes, in 1v1 and team games you have a 50% chance to win, but you are rewarded based off your statistical probability to win. If you win you only make one set of points, so you are risking 1 to 1. In an 8 man standard game you are against 8 players, and you are risking one point for 8 (adjusted for points). So the current system is already in place to do exactly what your first sentence says.

You should learn more about probabilities before making a post like this. An 8 man player can easily climb the scoreboards if they have the patience and do it right. You have to play games that are point positive for you meaning that the relative rank of your opponents needs to be such that you will make positive points in whatever % time you beat that relative rank to make up for the points you will lose compared to that relative rank when you lose the game. The true problem with those games is increasing in a 50/50 game, when your opponent makes a mistake, you can take direct advantage of that mistake. In an 8 player game, when 1 opponent makes a mistake, you have a 1/7 chance to take advantage of that mistake and most likely some one else will get to.

I will even give you another golden idea. Play in sequential 8 man games with a high relative rank, but join the game directly after the player MOST LIKELY to make the mistake that will hand you the game. This will increase your probability of winning games slightly and that slight increase will be shown in moving up the scoreboard.
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Re: Please..... TWEAK the point system

Postby ljex on Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:40 pm

army of nobunaga wrote:
ljex wrote:LOL that just makes it better for the 5-8 man players...the point system is flawed but most people realize that points dont indicate a players skill



for harder games to win like 8 man doubles and singles (non 2 man or 3 man) there should be a kicker bonus

there SHOULD be.

You admit the point system is flawed yet you are against a point tweak?


There is said bonus in the current point system, the more people you beat the more points you get...also the point system is only flawed in that there are so many different settings on cc and they are all under the same score. This in my opinion is a flaw but i would never want to have different scores for different settings so it is flawed but i dont want it to change...
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Re: Please..... TWEAK the point system

Postby army of nobunaga on Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:44 pm

Chuuuuck wrote:
army of nobunaga wrote:points should be graded on how statistically probable it is in winning that game!

Quads and 1vs1, you friggin already have a 50% chance of winning. ... So tweak this... Make it really much harder for people that wimp out and only play the games they win 80% of the time at. MAke them prove they are skilled. Make them join the CC masses and not play with 3 other colonels and generals beating up on free account privates.

MAkes no sense not to change it to me... Which means in 1 week this thread will be on page 3 and forgotten.

o well


This thread will go to page 3 and be forgotten because it is a terrible idea. Yes, in 1v1 and team games you have a 50% chance to win, but you are rewarded based off your statistical probability to win. If you win you only make one set of points, so you are risking 1 to 1. In an 8 man standard game you are against 8 players, and you are risking one point for 8 (adjusted for points). So the current system is already in place to do exactly what your first sentence says.

You should learn more about probabilities before making a post like this. An 8 man player can easily climb the scoreboards if they have the patience and do it right. You have to play games that are point positive for you meaning that the relative rank of your opponents needs to be such that you will make positive points in whatever % time you beat that relative rank to make up for the points you will lose compared to that relative rank when you lose the game. The true problem with those games is increasing in a 50/50 game, when your opponent makes a mistake, you can take direct advantage of that mistake. In an 8 player game, when 1 opponent makes a mistake, you have a 1/7 chance to take advantage of that mistake and most likely some one else will get to.

I will even give you another golden idea. Play in sequential 8 man games with a high relative rank, but join the game directly after the player MOST LIKELY to make the mistake that will hand you the game. This will increase your probability of winning games slightly and that slight increase will be shown in moving up the scoreboard.



shocking.. .someone that is a 1`00% quads and trips player protests... rofl

whatever man.

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Re: Please..... TWEAK the point system

Postby TheForgivenOne on Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:46 pm

Hm, i think i know what you are saying.

Currently it is ((loser's score / winner's score) * 20)

But you are saying, that if:

The winners score, is far higher than the losers score, they should win less than what it is set to now.
And if the losers score is a lot higher than the winners score, they should lose more than it is now.

Maybe (loser's score / winner's score) * 30?

So instead of (3000 / 6000) X 20 = 10, (3000 / 6000) X 10 = 5?

Or (6000 / 3000) X 20 = 40, (6000 / 3000) X 25 = 50?

Correct me if i am wrong.
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Re: Please..... TWEAK the point system

Postby army of nobunaga on Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:46 pm

TheForgivenOne wrote:Hm, i think i know what you are saying.

Currently it is ((loser's score / winner's score) * 20)

But you are saying, that if:

The winners score, is far higher than the losers score, they should win less than what it is set to now.
And if the losers score is a lot higher than the winners score, they should lose more than it is now.

Maybe (loser's score / winner's score) * 30?

So instead of (3000 / 6000) X 20 = 10, (3000 / 6000) X 10 = 5?

Or (6000 / 3000) X 20 = 40, (6000 / 3000) X 25 = 50?

Correct me if i am wrong.



thats it EXACTLY!
thank you
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Re: Please..... TWEAK the point system

Postby ljex on Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:48 pm

army of nobunaga wrote:well man, you are preaching to the choir on that one... but because you posted this... edinsweet will lock this soon im sure. A few of them are ok though... just ljex and edin and lord potter make it seem like its their mission in life to follow me from post to post.


Really you think it is my mission to follow you and post in your threads. FYI most of my posts are as a user and would be made the same way if i wasn't a moderator...
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Re: Please..... TWEAK the point system

Postby TheForgivenOne on Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:51 pm

I see how that would work. It would be so much harder to get up high, because you risk losing more then normal if you play against the lower ranks. A slope for when your score goes up, and your opponent score goes down.
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Re: Please..... TWEAK the point system

Postby army of nobunaga on Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:53 pm

TheForgivenOne wrote:I see how that would work. It would be so much harder to get up high, because you risk losing more then normal if you play against the lower ranks. A slope for when your score goes up, and your opponent score goes down.



It wouldnt be harder for really good players... people that can win any setting any map like scott land, blitz... they would not have to be paper champs.. they could be appreciated for their skills...


jokes like our current conqueror and may of the ppl right behind him... well they would be clowns we wouldnt have to stare up at because they would be exposed.
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Re: Please..... TWEAK the point system

Postby ljex on Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:56 pm

army of nobunaga wrote:
TheForgivenOne wrote:I see how that would work. It would be so much harder to get up high, because you risk losing more then normal if you play against the lower ranks. A slope for when your score goes up, and your opponent score goes down.



It wouldnt be harder for really good players... people that can win any setting any map like scott land, blitz... they would not have to be paper champs.. they could be appreciated for their skills...


jokes like our current conqueror and may of the ppl right behind him... well they would be clowns we wouldnt have to stare up at because they would be exposed.


lol people will always find ways to manipulate the scoreboard no matter what you do. Also what i dont get is how you think this changing of the formula will change who is at the top...it will just change how many points they have as everyone will have their score calculated under the same new system.
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Re: Please..... TWEAK the point system

Postby lord voldemort on Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:59 pm

Quite simply anyone who is determined enough is going to find a way to boost their score...
And it definately is possibly to climb the scoreboard as an escalating player....thai robert, scott-land come to mind.
I think while several conquerors have used 'cheap' methods to get to the top...They are still decent players...its obvious to most who the better players on the site are. The conqueror symbol is just self reward.
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Re: Please..... TWEAK the point system

Postby army of nobunaga on Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:02 pm

ljex wrote:
army of nobunaga wrote:
TheForgivenOne wrote:I see how that would work. It would be so much harder to get up high, because you risk losing more then normal if you play against the lower ranks. A slope for when your score goes up, and your opponent score goes down.



It wouldnt be harder for really good players... people that can win any setting any map like scott land, blitz... they would not have to be paper champs.. they could be appreciated for their skills...


jokes like our current conqueror and may of the ppl right behind him... well they would be clowns we wouldnt have to stare up at because they would be exposed.


lol people will always find ways to manipulate the scoreboard no matter what you do. Also what i dont get is how you think this changing of the formula will change who is at the top...it will just change how many points they have as everyone will have their score calculated under the same new system.


It will not change the leaderboard for the first bit... until people that play other types of games start to overtake them

and no ljex.. you are too friggin young to be so cynical... this isnt democracy or some awe spanding social structure that has 100000's of loopholes... this is a dictatorship (lack) full of people that are good at stats and numbers that SHOULD be able to make a point system that is more balanced. This isnt rocket science and there are only X amount of variables... and guess what.. when these p##$#$#s figure out another way to ruin the spirit of the game more, just tweak it again.


This is something that im sure 90% of the users in CC would be in favor of if they read the forums.

But ill rest my case here. I said what needed to be said.
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Re: Please..... TWEAK the point system

Postby army of nobunaga on Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:04 pm

lord voldemort wrote:Quite simply anyone who is determined enough is going to find a way to boost their score...
And it definately is possibly to climb the scoreboard as an escalating player....thai robert, scott-land come to mind.
I think while several conquerors have used 'cheap' methods to get to the top...They are still decent players...its obvious to most who the better players on the site are. The conqueror symbol is just self reward.



so you admit people boost their score here... and you admit conquerors use cheap methods to get to the top... and thats ok with you.


maybe someday when you grow up, you will find something you know you need to take a stand on. Something you know isnt right and you are willing to put up with scrutiny to tell everyone that it isnt right and it should change... I guess that day isnt this day bubba,


like I said ... I rest my case.. Ill still be playing here. watching paper champs rise.
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Re: Please..... TWEAK the point system

Postby lord voldemort on Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:07 pm

internet gaming site :roll:
Not all conquerors boost their score. Im just saying a few do. Someone will always try to take advantage of a system...the one we have in place is fair and simple...why change it
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Re: Please..... TWEAK the point system

Postby TheForgivenOne on Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:09 pm

Tweaking things is what makes them better and better. Maybe the point system needs to be tweaked a bit, maybe not. Put up a poll, and see where it goes. If it ends up sounding biased either way, i will tweak it for you AoN ;)
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Re: Please..... TWEAK the point system

Postby Incandenza on Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:09 pm

Ugh, are we having this discussion again?

AoN, the problems with your suggestion are legion, but let's just look at one:
Right now, if I lose a team game to an exactly equivalent team, the point exchange is 20. But Under your formula, I'd, what, lose 30, and the other team would gain 10? Where's that extra 20 points go? That's some massively deflationary shit right there for a game between equals.

This has happened before, quite often in fact. Someone comes along, says the scoreboard is broken, proposes a half-baked cure that would be worse than the disease, and then declares that they have a popular mandate. And this is all because someone gets pissed off about ho the top tenth of a percent of the scoreboard operates, so they want to substantially change the playing experience for all CCers. That's pretty arrogant, mate.
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Re: Please..... TWEAK the point system

Postby ljex on Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:14 pm

army of nobunaga wrote:
ljex wrote:
army of nobunaga wrote:
TheForgivenOne wrote:I see how that would work. It would be so much harder to get up high, because you risk losing more then normal if you play against the lower ranks. A slope for when your score goes up, and your opponent score goes down.



It wouldnt be harder for really good players... people that can win any setting any map like scott land, blitz... they would not have to be paper champs.. they could be appreciated for their skills...


jokes like our current conqueror and may of the ppl right behind him... well they would be clowns we wouldnt have to stare up at because they would be exposed.


lol people will always find ways to manipulate the scoreboard no matter what you do. Also what i dont get is how you think this changing of the formula will change who is at the top...it will just change how many points they have as everyone will have their score calculated under the same new system.


It will not change the leaderboard for the first bit... until people that play other types of games start to overtake them

and no ljex.. you are too friggin young to be so cynical... this isnt democracy or some awe spanding social structure that has 100000's of loopholes... this is a dictatorship (lack) full of people that are good at stats and numbers that SHOULD be able to make a point system that is more balanced. This isnt rocket science and there are only X amount of variables... and guess what.. when these p##$#$#s figure out another way to ruin the spirit of the game more, just tweak it again.


This is something that im sure 90% of the users in CC would be in favor of if they read the forums.

But ill rest my case here. I said what needed to be said.


JOY, another person commenting on how my age changes how i view the world and makes me less qualified to comment my ideas.
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Re: Please..... TWEAK the point system

Postby lord voldemort on Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:18 pm

Incandenza wrote:Ugh, are we having this discussion again?

AoN, the problems with your suggestion are legion, but let's just look at one:
Right now, if I lose a team game to an exactly equivalent team, the point exchange is 20. But Under your formula, I'd, what, lose 30, and the other team would gain 10? Where's that extra 20 points go? That's some massively deflationary shit right there for a game between equals.

This has happened before, quite often in fact. Someone comes along, says the scoreboard is broken, proposes a half-baked cure that would be worse than the disease, and then declares that they have a popular mandate. And this is all because someone gets pissed off about ho the top tenth of a percent of the scoreboard operates, so they want to substantially change the playing experience for all CCers. That's pretty arrogant, mate.


exactly...its pretty biased against team players as well...There is as much a skill and art to it as excalating players
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