Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferring'

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Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferring'

Postby stahrgazer on Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:32 am

Concise description: Deferred spoils
    Reprogram spoils so that they are tabulated at the end of any successful assault, but not granted until the start of the player's next turn - held in limbo, similar to "deferred troops" when players miss turns.

Specifics/Details:
  • Currently, spoils are granted only when the player hits "end turn".
  • For escalating, refusal to end turn can prevent a player from a 5th card for the fastest cash.
  • For nuclear, refusal to end turn can prevent a player from a 5th card and forced nuke of himself.
  • These are both similar in nature to the old system where refusal to end turn resulted in a Freestyle player being the first up in the next round.
  • Current C&A reports are saying this refusal to end turn (which unnecessarily prolongs the game) isn't 'cheating' because the folks are just using what the system program allows, and are not INTENDING to prolong the game (even though they ARE unnecessarily prolonging the games to do this, and prolonging the games unnecessarily is against CC rules)

How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:
  • This change will take away the ability to use cheap tactics for spoils, by ensuring that a player must accept spoils and cash if spoils were earned.
  • Programming spoils to be earned at the end of assaults but granted at the start of a player's turn will prohibit another potential cheap tactic: refusal to take a turn that might result in undesired cashes.
  • Will be more consistent with prior rulings (aka freestyle doubleturn) and fixes that ultimately prevented a "cheap tactic" from being used to manipulate the game.
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby Metsfanmax on Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:51 pm

Seems like a pretty good idea to me. The cash at the end of turn idea is more consistent with real Risk gameplay, but there's no reason why this particular aspect of it has to match up, if there are no negatives to changing the reward time.

One potential problem is that the server has to remember that you earned a card for a long time, before actually granting it to you.
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby Timminz on Thu Sep 16, 2010 1:58 pm

Neat idea. Quite a bit like Castle Risk. I really don't like your use of the word "reprogram" though. Making this change to all games with spoils would be ridiculous. For one, not getting your cards until the beginning of the next turn would mean that no one would ever be sitting with 5 between their turns. This would be a MONUMENTAL change, and one that I (and anyone who enjoys escalating games, likely) would detest.

I like the idea about forcing a card onto people who "forget" to end their turn.
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby Foxglove on Thu Sep 16, 2010 2:06 pm

haha, welllll it would certainly add an element of surprise if a player wasn't able to find out if they have a set or not until they begin their turn.

Seems like a very poor idea to me. How can you plan a turn in a team game (or standard game!) if you don't know what your cards are?
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby Metsfanmax on Thu Sep 16, 2010 2:13 pm

Timminz wrote:Neat idea. Quite a bit like Castle Risk. I really don't like your use of the word "reprogram" though. Making this change to all games with spoils would be ridiculous. For one, not getting your cards until the beginning of the next turn would mean that no one would ever be sitting with 5 between their turns. This would be a MONUMENTAL change, and one that I (and anyone who enjoys escalating games, likely) would detest.

I like the idea about forcing a card onto people who "forget" to end their turn.


The OP says that the card is "tabulated" after the assault. That means the only change to the system is that you don't require an ended turn to earn a card. Nothing else would change; you'd still know what your card was before your next turn, because the card would display in your spoils as soon as you end your turn (either by clicking 'end turn' or by running out of time).
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby Timminz on Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:29 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:The OP says that the card is "tabulated" after the assault. That means the only change to the system is that you don't require an ended turn to earn a card. Nothing else would change; you'd still know what your card was before your next turn, because the card would display in your spoils as soon as you end your turn (either by clicking 'end turn' or by running out of time).

stahrgazer wrote:Concise description: Deferred spoils
    Reprogram spoils so that they are tabulated at the end of any successful assault, but not granted until the start of the player's next turn - held in limbo, similar to "deferred troops" when players miss turns.
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby Metsfanmax on Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:02 pm

Timminz wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:The OP says that the card is "tabulated" after the assault. That means the only change to the system is that you don't require an ended turn to earn a card. Nothing else would change; you'd still know what your card was before your next turn, because the card would display in your spoils as soon as you end your turn (either by clicking 'end turn' or by running out of time).

stahrgazer wrote:Concise description: Deferred spoils
    Reprogram spoils so that they are tabulated at the end of any successful assault, but not granted until the start of the player's next turn - held in limbo, similar to "deferred troops" when players miss turns.


The fact that you don't "have" your card doesn't mean you don't know what you're going to get. If you have a problem with the wording of the OP, then we can just ask stahrgazer to edit it to simply say that you get a card whether or not you end your turn before you run out of time. After all, that's the intent of this suggestion.
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby rdsrds2120 on Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:49 pm

If I'm understanding this right, you basically want to award cards to those that run out of time as well, granted they've done what's required to get a card normally?
I like that idea. I hate lagging at the end of a speed game where I need a card. It really affects my gameplay.

Metsfanmax wrote:One potential problem is that the server has to remember that you earned a card for a long time, before actually granting it to you.


I don't think that it would make a HUGE deal.
Right now I think that the system checks to see if you've successfully attacked/bombarded then awards a spoil upon ending your turn.
Instead of doing that, you can do the same thing and just have the check happen when you press 'Begin Turn' on the following. Holding one boolean value on the game is nothing compared to everything else that it stores.
Even if that's now hot it happens, it wouldn't be hard to store a boolean value of getting a card true or false, but I'm not a web developer. Up to turtle.
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby Woltato on Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:48 pm

Surely only a slight change is needed here. award spoils at the end of a players turn whether they have run out of time or clicked to end their turn normally.

I think this would also improve speed games where sometimes you run out of time accidentally due to the lag and slowness of CC server.
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby Woodruff on Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:34 pm

stahrgazer wrote:Concise description: Deferred spoils
    Reprogram spoils so that they are tabulated at the end of any successful assault, but not granted until the start of the player's next turn - held in limbo, similar to "deferred troops" when players miss turns.

Specifics/Details:
  • Currently, spoils are granted only when the player hits "end turn".
  • For escalating, refusal to end turn can prevent a player from a 5th card for the fastest cash.
  • For nuclear, refusal to end turn can prevent a player from a 5th card and forced nuke of himself.
  • These are both similar in nature to the old system where refusal to end turn resulted in a Freestyle player being the first up in the next round.
  • Current C&A reports are saying this refusal to end turn (which unnecessarily prolongs the game) isn't 'cheating' because the folks are just using what the system program allows, and are not INTENDING to prolong the game (even though they ARE unnecessarily prolonging the games to do this, and prolonging the games unnecessarily is against CC rules)

How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:
  • This change will take away the ability to use cheap tactics for spoils, by ensuring that a player must accept spoils and cash if spoils were earned.
  • Programming spoils to be earned at the end of assaults but granted at the start of a player's turn will prohibit another potential cheap tactic: refusal to take a turn that might result in undesired cashes.
  • Will be more consistent with prior rulings (aka freestyle doubleturn) and fixes that ultimately prevented a "cheap tactic" from being used to manipulate the game.


Yep, makes sense to me.
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby eddie2 on Fri Sep 17, 2010 5:13 pm

i like this it will stop things like this happening

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if i remember correct it happened by one player a total of 7 or 8 times straight
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby NightWolf on Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:34 am

I do believe it would be helpful to force players to draw a card after their turn. I have had problems more than once of not getting a card in a speed game simply because I was being too slow.
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby TheForgivenOne on Sat Sep 18, 2010 2:53 pm

rdsrds2120 wrote:Instead of doing that, you can do the same thing and just have the check happen when you press 'Begin Turn' on the following. Holding one boolean value on the game is nothing compared to everything else that it stores.
Even if that's now hot it happens, it wouldn't be hard to store a boolean value of getting a card true or false, but I'm not a web developer. Up to turtle.


Problem here is, if they were to hand out cards when "Begin Turn" Is pressed, what happens if a player misses a turn? Will it be assigned when he gets back? If so, this could be a bit of a problem, as someone may have pegged him off for his cards to get a 5 set, but instead of getting 5 for the elimination, he would only get 4.
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby Metsfanmax on Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:21 pm

TheForgivenOne wrote:
rdsrds2120 wrote:Instead of doing that, you can do the same thing and just have the check happen when you press 'Begin Turn' on the following. Holding one boolean value on the game is nothing compared to everything else that it stores.
Even if that's now hot it happens, it wouldn't be hard to store a boolean value of getting a card true or false, but I'm not a web developer. Up to turtle.


Problem here is, if they were to hand out cards when "Begin Turn" Is pressed, what happens if a player misses a turn? Will it be assigned when he gets back? If so, this could be a bit of a problem, as someone may have pegged him off for his cards to get a 5 set, but instead of getting 5 for the elimination, he would only get 4.


Yeah, this is reason enough not to have cards assigned at the beginning of your next turn. Let's just make the suggestion "get a card no matter what" and stick with it. Is that okay stahrgazer?
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby MrBenn on Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:13 pm

It would make a lot of sense to be awarded a card (if you have successfully captured a territory) at the moment your turn ends, regardless of whether you have clicked the "end reinforcements" button, or simply run out of time. I don;t see it would be that hard to code.

However, at the moment it is a valid strategy (albeit one that could be seen as 'cheap') to avoid collecting a card in nukes (or even to delay cashing in a set of them mid-turn to avoid wiping yourself or a partner out). I can see less of a reason why you would want to use it in an escalating game though?
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:22 pm

MrBenn wrote:However, at the moment it is a valid strategy (albeit one that could be seen as 'cheap') to avoid collecting a card in nukes (or even to delay cashing in a set of them mid-turn to avoid wiping yourself or a partner out).


It's only valid because it's allowed. I think OP's point is that since such tactics are indeed cheap, we should insert code to make them impossible.

I can see less of a reason why you would want to use it in an escalating game though?


It can make sense in many circumstances. If every player has 4 cards and it's your turn, if you get a card it most likely means that you're going to cash the first set, making your set worth at least 11 less troops than the player who goes right before you. If you hold off on cashing, you aren't forced to turn in the least valuable set.
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby natty dread on Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:02 am

Yeah no one wants to cash the first set.
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby eddie2 on Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:44 am

the whole point of this is why should players get 2 attack and not cash there are players that do this validly by just deploying then ending there shot. and others who attack then just time out. abusing the system.
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby amazzony on Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:38 am

Sounds fair, at least as much as I understand it O:) Going into details ain't my kind of thing but the overall idea is something that needs to get done to remove another way how to abuse the game.
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby Darwins_Bane on Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:19 pm

yes but the you would have a different type of abuse to consider. what happens if 5 players have 5 cards each in escalating? you can't just force them to take a card. how do you make them cash? do you cash for them? what order of cashing is fair since the comp does it all?
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby tkr4lf on Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:47 am

Darwins_Bane wrote:yes but the you would have a different type of abuse to consider. what happens if 5 players have 5 cards each in escalating? you can't just force them to take a card. how do you make them cash? do you cash for them? what order of cashing is fair since the comp does it all?

I believe the game forces you to cash in spoils if you have 5 of them. I could be wrong on this, but I think I am correct.
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby wolfpack0530 on Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:51 am

Benn, no way in hell that is a valid strategy!!! When your turn ends, you get a goddamn card!! period. the fact that CC would even allow this loophole to exist and be exploited is detestable and makes CC look like it accepts cheating or in this case quasi-cheating (not all game choices give this strategy and unfair advantage, which is the term i am using to define cheating in this case).

The fact that CC still wont change it, knowing this, makes them look like cowards.

and those that still defend this with talking points are looking like mindless lackey fools

whatever happened to: just do what is right and fair?? does CC even care about fair anymore??? CC backing the current dice would suggest they dont at all, this is just another example.

make this suggestion happen!!
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby Darwins_Bane on Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:03 pm

saying that something should be stopped is all well and good, but there has been no real suggestion on what should be done to replace the current system. And before going off like you did, why don't you read my previous post about the consequences of implementing this suggestion. Don't get me wrong, when someone lets time run out to get a better cash or not take a card, i foe them.
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:39 pm

Darwins_Bane wrote:saying that something should be stopped is all well and good, but there has been no real suggestion on what should be done to replace the current system.


Sure there has been. It's in the first post of this thread.

And before going off like you did, why don't you read my previous post about the consequences of implementing this suggestion. Don't get me wrong, when someone lets time run out to get a better cash or not take a card, i foe them.


Your scenario doesn't make sense. Players can't hold five cards during their assault phase.
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby stahrgazer on Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:54 pm

Timminz wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:The OP says that the card is "tabulated" after the assault. That means the only change to the system is that you don't require an ended turn to earn a card. Nothing else would change; you'd still know what your card was before your next turn, because the card would display in your spoils as soon as you end your turn (either by clicking 'end turn' or by running out of time).

stahrgazer wrote:Concise description: Deferred spoils
    Reprogram spoils so that they are tabulated at the end of any successful assault, but not granted until the start of the player's next turn - held in limbo, similar to "deferred troops" when players miss turns.


Very simply, Timminz.. I wanted to give nay-sayers something to negate. Suggesting they not receive the card till the beginning of next turn does that... while making the point that if they earned the card, they should get it, always; they should not be able to cheat the system to "not get it" nor should they lose the card they already earned if they legitimately ran out of time to hit "end turn". It would be more consistent with the way CC wrote its rules, too... the rules don't say, "You earn a card when you conquer a region and end your turn," they say you earn a card when you conquer a region; you just don't get it until the end of your turn, which should be one of two things: you ended your turn or the clock ran out.

Cards that weren't awarded at "end turn," because "end turn" wasn't depressed, are held until the "start turn" is pressed.
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