Double Turns and Freestyle Turn Holding

[sherkaner]

I am mad that you had to cheat to win yes but Herpes also used it against me and I was equally pissed. You cheaters hind behind technicalities and then when you get corned just say I just play for fun stop taking it so seriously. I play for fun to and that's why don't play like a coward and cheat.

cheat = playing against the rules. It isn't against the rules yet, though there's always been a lot of debate about it (one of the outcomes was that it is 'frowned upon'). So they're not cheating. They just try everything within the rules to win.

But I agree that this specific rule should be changed, b2b turns in (non-speed) freestyle just aren't fair. But I just tend not to play freestyle against high-rankers anyway.

[apb23]

but if the second player anticipates the double turn and is ready for it it doesn't even matter...not saying that i am a fan of it but it should not be banned.

[the.killing.44]

Yes to casual, but no way in speed. I don't find anything wrong with doing it in speed, and seeing how in most games people wait until 10 seconds to move and both begin ASAP it shouldn't make a difference.

.44

[Thezzaruz]

but if the second player anticipates the double turn and is ready for it it doesn't even matter...

Yes it does, the player using the ploy would still get his bonuses (or win when applicable).

[fiction]

that is probably good advice, A lot of high rankers these days degrade to cheap tactics instead of relying on wit. I guess it works for them but I don't know how they can feel good about having to abuse a bug to win.

[The Neon Peon]

that is probably good advice, A lot of high rankers these days degrade to cheap tactics instead of relying on wit. I guess it works for them but I don't know how they can feel good about having to abuse a bug to win.

It is not a bug, get that through your head.

P.S. We should eliminate double turns in both casual games and speed games. It would really actually improve speed games by getting rid of the 3 minute wait where everyone has ended their turn except for one player who is just running out to be sure he can start, as if 4 people won't begin turn the moment he ends anywyas.

[fiction]

It is not a bug, get that through your head.

It is a bug, get it through your head. Maybe you are confused by the ass that posted before and misunderstand the meaning I was assigning to the word bug. A software bug is the common term used to describe an error, flaw, mistake, failure, or fault in a computer program or system that produces an incorrect or unexpected result, or causes it to behave in unintended ways. Can you sit there and honestly say you think it was designed so someone could make their entire move and just not hit the end reinforcement button and get them to take another turn as soon as time expires, you can sit there and intelligently think that was purposefully coded in? Why is it if they actually ended their move they would have a 12 hour gap before they could move again if no one else moved? Try think about the issue even a tiny bit, and you will see how obvious of a bug this is and how the people who exploit the bug should be punished.

[Artimis]

I am mad that you had to cheat to win yes but Herpes also used it against me and I was equally pissed. You cheaters hind behind technicalities and then when you get corned just say I just play for fun stop taking it so seriously. I play for fun to and that's why don't play like a coward and cheat.

Well, I came to this one a bit late.

Technically it's not cheating because it doesn't break any rules(as they stand at the moment). But it does need addressing and I should think that this long running issue should be adjudicated on as to whether it gets added to the *To-Do* list or slung on the scrap heap with the rest of the rejected ideas. - Assuming that hasn't happened already.

[The Neon Peon]

It is not a bug, get that through your head.

It is a bug, get it through your head. Maybe you are confused by the ass that posted before and misunderstand the meaning I was assigning to the word bug. A software bug is the common term used to describe an error, flaw, mistake, failure, or fault in a computer program or system that produces an incorrect or unexpected result, or causes it to behave in unintended ways. Can you sit there and honestly say you think it was designed so someone could make their entire move and just not hit the end reinforcement button and get them to take another turn as soon as time expires, you can sit there and intelligently think that was purposefully coded in? Why is it if they actually ended their move they would have a 12 hour gap before they could move again if no one else moved? Try think about the issue even a tiny bit, and you will see how obvious of a bug this is and how the people who exploit the bug should be punished.

You know why? Because both sides have an advantage and the owners of the site believe it is enough.

Advantages of running out:
- You get to keep your bonus the second round.
- You get to finish off any kills you needed just a few more troops for.
- You get to counter your opponents moves first round.
Disadvantages:
- You don't get a card.
- Every other player gets a chance to break your bonus before you begin the first turn out of the two.
- Every other player gets a chance to make a kill or eliminate you before you begin.
- You have no way of countering any move your opponents make in the second round. (there is a reason why most people prefer to deploy and attack after their opponents do, it gives you an advantage, you see this a lot in speed freestyles, people all begin and then race to see who can do their turn last)
- You lose most of the attacker's advantage you had. That is 8% worse dice for you since your opponents had it.

Advantages of doing your turn first and not running out:
- You get to break your opponents' bonuses.
- You get to eliminate players.
- You get a card.
- You keep your bonus the first round.
- You have a chance of keeping your bonus the second round.
- You have a chance to eliminate people first in the second round since you can begin turn too.
- You have a choice of going first/at the same time or second in the next round.
Disadvantages:
- If you are not online and someone runs out the clock, they have a chance to break your bonus.
- If you come short on a kill, there is nothing you can do to change it.
- You can't counter the second round.

Overall, the advantages are the exact same except they come in different rounds.
- Person who ends can break bonus in first round vs Person who runs out gets a chance to break in second
- Person who ends keeps bonus the first round vs Person who runs out keeps bonus second round
- Person who ends gets to counter the second round vs Person who runs out gets to counter the first round
Along with a few more advantages the person who ends gets such as cards.

I think I did what you said and say there and intelligently thought. I am on your side, I don't like the fact this drags out games pointlessly, but the advantages and disadvantages of running out seem balanced in the eyes of the owners of the site. Why do you think they have not changed it? It is really an easy fix from a coding perspective.

P.S. Yes, I understand that in many situations double turns are an instant win, but think about it this way. You know the exact time the round ends, so you can be there to begin. If you begin on someone who took a double turn, that is also a pretty easy win for you since the strategy people use when taking a double turn usually fails when the other person gets their bonus before they can break it.

[Thezzaruz]

A software bug is the common term used to describe an error, flaw, mistake, failure, or fault in a computer program or system that produces an incorrect or unexpected result, or causes it to behave in unintended ways.

The rule was worded a specific way and the coding was made to match that. It might have been a poorly thought out rule and it might be a rule you (and I and many others) don't like but it is not in any way a bug or a cheat (and the ones using it aren't cheaters either).

[demonfork]

It is not a bug, get that through your head.

It is a bug, get it through your head. Maybe you are confused by the ass that posted before and misunderstand the meaning I was assigning to the word bug. A software bug is the common term used to describe an error, flaw, mistake, failure, or fault in a computer program or system that produces an incorrect or unexpected result, or causes it to behave in unintended ways. Can you sit there and honestly say you think it was designed so someone could make their entire move and just not hit the end reinforcement button and get them to take another turn as soon as time expires, you can sit there and intelligently think that was purposefully coded in? Why is it if they actually ended their move they would have a 12 hour gap before they could move again if no one else moved? Try think about the issue even a tiny bit, and you will see how obvious of a bug this is and how the people who exploit the bug should be punished.

WRONG!!!!! IT'S NOT A BUG, GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD!

...And just to clarify, anti-double-turn block is only meant to prevent "surprise" double turns when the round ends before the 24 hours are up. Any other sort of double turn (e.g. when someone didn't play or ran out of time) is allowed because everyone knows when the turn expires and it isn't a surprise.

[slowreactor]

Disadvantages:
- You don't get a card.
- Every other player gets a chance to break your bonus before you begin the first turn out of the two.
- Every other player gets a chance to make a kill or eliminate you before you begin.
- You have no way of countering any move your opponents make in the second round. (there is a reason why most people prefer to deploy and attack after their opponents do, it gives you an advantage, you see this a lot in speed freestyles, people all begin and then race to see who can do their turn last)
- You lose most of the attacker's advantage you had. That is 8% worse dice for you since your opponents had it.

WTF are you blabbering about? Most of those statements you just said are untrue!

- Every other player gets a chance to break your bonus before you begin the first turn out of the two.

the WHOLE POINT of waiting it out is so that you can START YOUR TURN as soon as the clock runs out, to PREVENT people from breaking your bonuses.

- Every other player gets a chance to make a kill or eliminate you before you begin.
- You have no way of countering any move your opponents make in the second round. (there is a reason why most people prefer to deploy and attack after their opponents do, it gives you an advantage, you see this a lot in speed freestyles, people all begin and then race to see who can do their turn last)

Again, same thing. Why wait it out if you're not going to use the fact that you can start as soon as the clock runs out?

- You lose most of the attacker's advantage you had. That is 8% worse dice for you since your opponents had it.

I'd like to know where you get this percentage from.

[The Neon Peon]

Disadvantages:
- You don't get a card.
- Every other player gets a chance to break your bonus before you begin the first turn out of the two.
- Every other player gets a chance to make a kill or eliminate you before you begin.
- You have no way of countering any move your opponents make in the second round. (there is a reason why most people prefer to deploy and attack after their opponents do, it gives you an advantage, you see this a lot in speed freestyles, people all begin and then race to see who can do their turn last)
- You lose most of the attacker's advantage you had. That is 8% worse dice for you since your opponents had it.

WTF are you blabbering about? Most of those statements you just said are untrue!

- Are you saying that you are capable of getting a card when running out? I want to know how so I can do it.
- Are you saying you are capable of doing something to defend your bonus for the first 23 hours of the round when you did not begin yet? Please enlighten me as to how, I want to have this magical bonus protection that works before I begin my turn.
- Are you telling me that you can do something to prevent a player from killing you or someone else before you begin your turn 23 hours later? I also would like to know how you do this, I have always thought that you have no control over what happens before you begin your turn.
- Are you telling me you can counter your opponent's moves (ex. breaking a bonus they took) if you ended in the first hour of the round and they took it afterwards? You amaze me at your skill of being able to do things when you are not taking your turn.
- Are you telling me that if every other player gets to attack the stacks you have before you begin your turn you still get attacker's advantage dice on all those attacks when you are defending? Please teach me how you roll three dice instead of two on a defending territory!!

So, WTF are you blabbering about?

- Every other player gets a chance to break your bonus before you begin the first turn out of the two.

the WHOLE POINT of waiting it out is so that you can START YOUR TURN as soon as the clock runs out, to PREVENT people from breaking your bonuses.

Learn to read, please. I specifically said that you don't get a chance to keep your bonus the round that you start your turn 23 hours late so you can run out. The first thing I mentioned in the advantages of running out was that you keep your bonus the second round.

- Every other player gets a chance to make a kill or eliminate you before you begin.
- You have no way of countering any move your opponents make in the second round. (there is a reason why most people prefer to deploy and attack after their opponents do, it gives you an advantage, you see this a lot in speed freestyles, people all begin and then race to see who can do their turn last)

Again, same thing. Why wait it out if you're not going to use the fact that you can start as soon as the clock runs out?

That is basically the point, wasn't it? The first round you have to wait it out so that you can begin in the last hour to run out, but the second round you get the advantages of starting first. You have been thinking only about the second round when you get to start first and have forgotten about the fact that people have been taking their turns for 23 hours before you begun your first.

- You lose most of the attacker's advantage you had. That is 8% worse dice for you since your opponents had it.

I'd like to know where you get this percentage from.

Okay, I'll explain. In a standard roll of 3 dice vs 2 dice, if you roll the dice many thousands or even millions of times, you will find that the attacker wins 56% of the troops. What this means is that if you had begun your turn as the first person in the first round (instead of waiting so you can run out the clock), you would have won 56% of the attacks you made and lost 44%. (let's assume you are fighting with hundreds or thousands of troops, since we all know that luck is a big factor where only a few troops are involved). Now, since you chose to wait for 23 hours to start your turn, your opponent attacked your stacks instead of you attacking their stacks, which means that you lost 56% of the troops and won only 44% of the rolls. So, by attacking the stack, you win 8% more than had you been the one on the defending side. (56% wins on attacking side - 44% wins on defending side = 8%)

WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT SPEED GAMES HERE!!! I THINK THAT WAS YOUR PROBLEM WHEN RESPONDING TO MY POST, YES, IN SPEED GAMES, NONE OF WHAT I SAID WOULD HAVE MADE SENSE.

[john9blue]

I strongly support this, and as much as demonfork loves to quote that line by lack, I believe that lack made a bad decision.



Yes, it's true, I think lack did not foresee the extreme abuse of this technicality and would change it if he gave two shits about this site.

[demonfork]

I strongly support this, and as much as demonfork loves to quote that line by lack, I believe that lack made a bad decision.



Yes, it's true, I think lack did not foresee the extreme abuse of this technicality and would change it if he gave two shits about this site.

I like to quote it because so many mooks on cc like to represent that it a bug.

The only reason why you believe that lack made a bad decision is because you don't understand the format very well. Basically you suck at freestyle.

[The Neon Peon]

I strongly support this, and as much as demonfork loves to quote that line by lack, I believe that lack made a bad decision.



Yes, it's true, I think lack did not foresee the extreme abuse of this technicality and would change it if he gave two shits about this site.

I like to quote it because so many mooks on cc like to represent that it a bug.

The only reason why you believe that lack made a bad decision is because you don't understand the format very well. Basically you suck at freestyle.

To be fair, not everyone likes that style of play. While waiting for 23 hours to take your turn might just be what you need to win the game, I prefer to just take my turns and not be bothered by it, I am not into the game enough to have to plan when I need to be online for a double turn. Which is why I don't play casual freestyle, just not my type of game.

Honestly, I would not play it with double turns around either. I don't like waiting for my opponent to go offline to start my turn or keep pressing begin turn to have chance. The reason I am for this suggestion is that the allowance of double turns adds little to the game, and not allowing double turns would make a lot more people play casual freestyle.

Speed games would also have a benefit. You often get that one naive person who will wait for 2 minutes to end his turn in an 8 man game, even though 4 people would start their turn the same second he ends at any given moment. And in 2 players where a person runs out 4 minutes because they think that you will stall to begin.

Demonfork, is there a reason other than the easy win that you like double turns? If there is a way that it adds to gameplay, I would love to hear it. I would love to change my mind on this and start enjoying casual freestyles.

[john9blue]

The only reason why you believe that lack made a bad decision is because you don't understand the format very well. Basically you suck at freestyle.

...the hell?

I used to play a lot of freestyle but got sick of the lowlifes who either

- have nothing better to do than sit on their computer all day and wait for the right time to take turns
- use a program to automatically press keys for them

and the occasional douchebag such as yourself who would pretend that their high score acquired with these methods was representative of some sort of extreme skill. Now I play almost exclusively sequential.

I see why you are the worst rated player on the first page of the scoreboard. You cannot understand that the majority of us play this game for fun, and not to achieve a digital ranking (which has become nearly meaningless to myself and others) using questionable means.

[e_i_pi]

ELIMINATE FREESTYLE DOUBLE TURNS?!

Are you CRAZY?

If they were eliminated, our glorious top three players would be languishing somewhere around page 35! This suggestion is ridiculous, and deserves nothing but outright condemnation. Shame, shame on the OP!

[Bruceswar]

I strongly support this, and as much as demonfork loves to quote that line by lack, I believe that lack made a bad decision.



Yes, it's true, I think lack did not foresee the extreme abuse of this technicality and would change it if he gave two shits about this site.

I like to quote it because so many mooks on cc like to represent that it a bug.

The only reason why you believe that lack made a bad decision is because you don't understand the format very well. Basically you suck at freestyle.

I do not suck at freestyle yet I fully support this idea. Point being is many people are fed up with double turns. More so in Casual games than speed games. Most speed game players know what to expect and the fact that they are around when it is all going on helps. Sure you can say Be here at 24:00 so you can counter my move... but that is not really in the spirit of the game. With that said for right now it is what it is.

[Bruceswar]

ELIMINATE FREESTYLE DOUBLE TURNS?!

Are you CRAZY?

If they were eliminated, our glorious top three players would be languishing somewhere around page 35! This suggestion is ridiculous, and deserves nothing but outright condemnation. Shame, shame on the OP!

Incorrect. KP does not need to double turn on you to run you over in a speed game. Yeah sure sometimes he might run out of time trying to fort men or something, but not to run the clock on you.

[Bruceswar]

I strongly support this, and as much as demonfork loves to quote that line by lack, I believe that lack made a bad decision.



Yes, it's true, I think lack did not foresee the extreme abuse of this technicality and would change it if he gave two shits about this site.

I like to quote it because so many mooks on cc like to represent that it a bug.

The only reason why you believe that lack made a bad decision is because you don't understand the format very well. Basically you suck at freestyle.

To be fair, not everyone likes that style of play. While waiting for 23 hours to take your turn might just be what you need to win the game, I prefer to just take my turns and not be bothered by it, I am not into the game enough to have to plan when I need to be online for a double turn. Which is why I don't play casual freestyle, just not my type of game.

Honestly, I would not play it with double turns around either. I don't like waiting for my opponent to go offline to start my turn or keep pressing begin turn to have chance. The reason I am for this suggestion is that the allowance of double turns adds little to the game, and not allowing double turns would make a lot more people play casual freestyle.

Speed games would also have a benefit. You often get that one naive person who will wait for 2 minutes to end his turn in an 8 man game, even though 4 people would start their turn the same second he ends at any given moment. And in 2 players where a person runs out 4 minutes because they think that you will stall to begin.

Demonfork, is there a reason other than the easy win that you like double turns? If there is a way that it adds to gameplay, I would love to hear it. I would love to change my mind on this and start enjoying casual freestyles.

Here is the point Slow was making, most people wait till the last second aka double turn to grab the bonus thus they did not have it till 23:59:30 and then they can start again right away with the extra bonus.

P.S. Most of the time double turns happen on conquest maps where cards are a moot point, and many times not even played with them.

[cramill]

Overall, the advantages are the exact same except they come in different rounds.

I beg to differ - I think the advantages of one successfully using a 'double turn' outweigh the disadvantages. The two biggest examples: getting a bonus right after taking it or winning automatically.

P.S. Yes, I understand that in many situations double turns are an instant win, but think about it this way. You know the exact time the round ends, so you can be there to begin. If you begin on someone who took a double turn, that is also a pretty easy win for you since the strategy people use when taking a double turn usually fails when the other person gets their bonus before they can break it.

In a casual frestyle game one might not be able to be there the exact time the round ends. (Work, class, stuff that comes up, etc.) Sure, frestyle might require more effort to be good at - but I don't think one should have to worry about this double turn 'tactic'.

...And just to clarify, anti-double-turn block is only meant to prevent "surprise" double turns when the round ends before the 24 hours are up. Any other sort of double turn (e.g. when someone didn't play or ran out of time) is allowed because everyone knows when the turn expires and it isn't a surprise.

I think you are misquoting lackattack - I thought someone else said this. Can you refer me to the exact place where lackattack posted that so I can see for myself?

[Artimis]

I think you are misquoting lackattack - I thought someone else said this. Can you refer me to the exact place where lackattack posted that so I can see for myself?

After conducting this search of Lacks posts with the key words Double and Expires I found only two matches:
Subject: [Official] Freestyle Changes -- Give us your feedback!
Subject: Ending fake double turns.

The top one of the two post links is where that quote is from.

[ManBungalow]

I realise that my opinion of freestyle has changed since this thread began, but that's because I know how to play it and have nothing to whinge about now.

If double turns are eliminated, I probably will not be renewing my premium. Double turns are a part of what makes freestyle so awesomely intense.

[KraphtOne]

Just want to comment about the MAJOR flaw i see in changing this policy...

Most freestyle games i play i double turn almost every turn, and here's why...

If the other player ends their turn first and then i end my turn, they have first shot at the next round... A LOT of players take advantage of this by using delay tactics and waiting till you aren't paying attention to start their turn and wipe you out, so that when you start your turn you have no bonus and no territories...

To combat this i just wait till the timer runs out... The other player can see exactly when the timer is going to run out, and show up at that time... There is nothing cheap about the double turn because my opponent knows EXACTLY when i'm going to start my turn...

But without waiting for the timer to expire i have no clue when my opponent will start their turn, thus giving them a major advantage...

I do not see the double turn as any kind of cheap tactic, if anything it allows that there is no way that either player can get a head start on one another...

If you don't like someone taking double turns don't play freestyle... Because the way it is set up right now is a perfect way to ensure that no-one gets any kinda of random turn order advantage...

~K1