[GL] Game Log 2.0

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[GL] Game Log 2.0

Postby Datacup on Fri Jan 27, 2006 5:51 pm

Concise description:
  • Modify the game log to record assaults that don't conquer a territory and the number of troop lost on both sides.
  • Also record how many troops are advanced after a successful assault.
Specifics/Details:
  • Example: spiesr assaulted Cuba from Mexico and conquered it from jonty125 losing 2 troops, killing 3, and advancing 1
  • Example of failed attack: spiesr assaulted Cuba from Mexico losing 5 troops and jonty125 defended losing 2
  • The exact entry format is flexible, but this data needs to be included.
How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:
  • Players will have full access to information about what happened in their games.
  • It would be possible to glean this info already by sitting there constantly refreshing anyway so concerns about changing the game for the worst should be limited.
  • It would allow for Game Replays, either as a site feature or with user created add-ons.


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Postby ZawBanjito on Fri Jan 27, 2006 7:50 pm

There's no way the system can work out when an attack has failed, is there? I attack Country X, with 5 armies, from Country Y with 8 armies. I get two unlucky roles, so now Country Y has only 4 armies. Uncertain, I reattack from Country Z with another 8 players and take Country X down to one, then move in again from Country Y. I do this kind of move constantly. How does the system work out if the first attack, Y to X, failed or succeeded? The report would be like:

A attacked X from Y but failed, X loses 0, Y loses 4.
A attacked X from Z but failed, X loses 4, Z loses 0.
A captured X from Y.

It seems fusty. You can't ask AI to make calls on player strategy. Take out the "fail" judgement. Literally log every attack made. It would make the logs long as hell but solve the problem.
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Postby Twill on Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:09 pm

Technically it might be easy. It doesn't need much AI at all.

if you roll your dice against a country, but then do not capture that country your attack failed.

system logic would need a "battle begun" flag (i.e. when you select 2 countries and attack), a "battle ended" flag (i.e. when you select a new country to attack to or from or turn ended)

Then if owner of the country changed you have a successful battle, if no owner change, then battle failed.

it's pretty simple.
If you attacked the same country from a different initial location then it would just count as a new battle.

I think anyway. I'm not a coder :)

Just a thought

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Postby ZawBanjito on Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:38 pm

Well, that's what he said. But my point's still the same - you can't code the AI to make calls on strategy. That's telepathy. So don't code something that makes calls on an attack "failing"... simply record each attack and the outcome of each. You wouldn't even need to display each attack; if a country is attacked sequentially you could aggregate the results. I'm agreeing with the basic premise.

Although now that I think about it, my original scenario might be solveable by putting an "under attack" flag, or whatever, on a defending country. The flag lasts the round, and you could then put up a report saying, "Country X resisted an attack from Y. X lost 1 and Y lost 3." And have one of those for each resisted attack. So the reporting isn't related to attacks made, which have a human element in them, but defenses, which are passive.

[EDIT] Blah, I'm making this too complicated. Look, all I'm saying is, under language currently proposed, in the example scenario I gave you would resolve two failed attacks and one capture, when what was actually happening was a single successful two-pronged attack. So you can't talk about "failure," only record the occurence of attacks and the armies won/lost.

Actually, the scenario is a bit flawed. Say Country Z lost some troops in the second prong of the attack. You could resolve the whole thing after the fact to a simple successful attack from Y to X, but then you wonder where the troops from Country Z went. As it stands now, you make an intelligent guess. The original proposal doesn't want that uncertainty, as I understand it. So you'd have to record each attack.

Another issue is that this version of Risk has occassionally a real-time element to it. The current language proposes reporting of halted attacks at the end of a turn, which would be fine if we were moving sequentially. But if two or more players are moving at once you'd get a log with a very muddled chronological line. You might be able to resolve this by time stamping events and logging them after the fact, but do you stamp the beginning of the attack or the end?

I still say better to log all attacks. The log would be longer but it would be simpler to understand.
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Wow... what a mess :)

Postby Datacup on Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:06 pm

Man, I think you overpowered my suggestion hehehe. I didn't expected the computer to calculate the enemy strategy or something like that. Basically, my idea is the same of yours: to log every attack. But I said that sequential attacks from the same country to the same country should be put together to avoid a large log. And that is not a hard thing to code (yes, Im a coder :P).

But you said an important thing: the game allow multiple players making their moves at the same time. If two guys attack one thirds territory, pehaps the system could make confusion. But this is a conquer club owner's issue ;)

BTW, I really think that if someone is making his move, no one else should play until the he or she finish it.
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Postby ZawBanjito on Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:03 pm

I dunno, Datacup. I think the realtime thing is damn exciting. It hasn't happened to me but I watched a game where one player massed armies to attack another but was attacked in turn by a third player. He was wiped out. Was crazy.

Perhaps you could timecode the start and end of an attack? If sequential attacks are summarized, you could report the first and last attack. That could avoid confusion.
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Postby lackattack on Mon Jan 30, 2006 9:11 pm

I have to side with ZawBanjito on the simultaneous issue. Simultaneous turns should happen rarely in casual games, and if it happens it's quite exciting.

Realtime games, on the other hand, are not the focus of Conquer Club and there is the Sequential solution ZawBanjito mentioned.
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[GL] Game Log 2.0

Postby Pedronicus on Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:06 pm

Concise description:
  • Modify the game log to record assaults that don't conquer a territory and the number of troop lost on both sides.
  • Also record how many troops are advanced after a successful assault.
Specifics/Details:
  • Example: spiesr assaulted Cuba from Mexico and conquered it from jonty125 losing 2 troops, killing 3, and advancing 1
  • Example of failed attack: spiesr assaulted Cuba from Mexico losing 5 troops and jonty125 defended losing 2
  • The exact entry format is flexible, but this data needs to be included.
How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:
  • Players will have full access to information about what happened in their games.
  • It would be possible to glean this info already by sitting there constantly refreshing anyway so concerns about changing the game for the worst should be limited.
  • It would allow for Game Replays, either as a site feature or with user created add-ons.
Last edited by spiesr on Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Formated OP
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Postby oman on Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:27 pm

I think that that is just way to much work than Lack needs, and it would be pointless
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[GL] Game Log 2.0

Postby ticalien on Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:51 pm

Concise description:
  • Modify the game log to record attacks that don't conquer a terrtiory and the number of troop lost on both sides.
Specifics/Details:
  • Example: spiesr assaulted Cuba from Mexico and conquered it from jonty125 losing 2 troops and killing 3
  • Example of failed attack: spiesr assaulted Cuba from Mexico losing 5 troops and jonty125 defended losing 2
  • The exact entry format is flexible, but this data needs to be included.

How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:
  • Players will have full access to information about what happened in their games.
  • It would be possible to glean this info already by sitting there constantly refreshing anyway so concerns about changing the game for the worst should be limited.
  • It would allow for Game Replays, either as a site feature or with user created add-ons.
Last edited by spiesr on Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Formated OP
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Postby Darkfire001 on Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:12 pm

Doubt Lack will do it, the Logs would grow so fast and it would really hamper MySQL (Database software).
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Postby Pedronicus on Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:54 am

it would read more like this:

Eastern US attacked Western US and lost 2 armies (4,3,4 to 5,6)
Eastern US attacked Western US and lost 2 armies (5,3,4 to 6,6)
Eastern US attacked Western US and lost 2 armies (1,3,4 to 6,4)
Eastern US attacked Western US and lost 2 armies (1,2,4 to 6,5)
Eastern US attacked Western US and lost 2 armies (1,1,1 to 2,2)
and so on
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Postby PaperPlunger on Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:40 pm

not necessarily putting it all into the same log, what if you had a combat log located below the cht box, where you could see color coded info, also having the names of countries attacking and defending color coded to owner? Would anyone like that, I think it would be good :P
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[GL] Game Log 2.0

Postby eddymush on Wed May 17, 2006 2:17 pm

im not sure if any one else is interested in seeing how a battle is doing. meaning id like to watch battle in the game log you know have it say player 1 rolls a 655 player 2 a 34 player two looses 2. it would allow us as players to be able to see where pepole are attacking.


just a thought
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Postby AndyDufresne on Wed May 17, 2006 2:21 pm

Such a thing could clutter up the gamelog window. One way to see how people are attacking, is the obvious. Look at the countries being taken over. And for the few rolls where people attack, but do not attack enough to take over the country, look for the obvious decrease in troop amounts.

One thing I think could be appropriate to add to the game log would be 'Attempted Take Overs'. "Say 'Jimbob' attacked Iceland with Greenland and failed." But then again you run the problem with cluttering the gamelog, but I think that would keep the mess down to a moderate level, and you could still see where whoever's country interests lie.


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Postby eddymush on Wed May 17, 2006 2:29 pm

that would be great. and really thats all id like to see.
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Postby rocksolid on Wed May 17, 2006 7:07 pm

Right now I use this absence of info strategically - I'll whittle someone down knowing that the next player along will finish the job before the attacked player will see the board, so that the follower will take any feud heat that may result - which makes me feel pretty devious. This sounds like it would be a bit of a pain to program without having every click of the attack button wind up in the game log - how do you register the first assault only and the successful conquest only, and not intermediate attacks? I wouldn't want to be the one to sort that out.
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Postby qeee1 on Wed May 17, 2006 7:16 pm

I never even thought of that... that's really devious... I like it. Thanks for giving away your tactics Rock.
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Postby lackattack on Wed May 17, 2006 8:06 pm

Complete logs have been requested several times, so perhaps this is a good opportunity to reveal my secret plans...

Game Log 2.0
* will normally not include fortifications
* but click on "extended log" and you'll get fortifications and dice rolls
* log will be available in xml format so talented programmers (*cough* *cough* Tr0y *cough*) could create movie players and even bots
* logs will be deleted on old games to make room for all these dice rolls
* internally I'll store the log differently to make it possible to translate the entries into different languages far off into the future
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Postby zorba_ca on Wed May 17, 2006 10:37 pm

Sounds great.
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Postby agarvin on Wed May 17, 2006 10:43 pm

lackattack wrote:Complete logs have been requested several times, so perhaps this is a good opportunity to reveal my secret plans...

Game Log 2.0

* log will be available in xml format so talented programmers (*cough* *cough* Tr0y *cough*) could create movie players and even bots


That'll be cool. I've been working on a program to examine game logs of multiple games to try to determine the statistical advantage of each continent (which to try to take first, which is best in the middle-to-end game). It'd be nice if you included initial starting positions in the 'extended logs'. Right now, I've been pasting in the logs, starting at the end to find who won, and then searching backwards to resolve each conquered area, back to the beginning. I'd love to have data on how many armies attacking and how many lost. With all the dice info, I'd be able to throw in "luck" calculations.

XML, ugh... I guess it's standard but personally I'd rather work with a simple, raw, CSV input..
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Postby Rik Meleet on Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:24 pm

lackattack wrote:Game Log 2.0
* logs will be deleted on old games to make room for all these dice rolls
I really really like the idea of replays. a remark on the quoted part: if you can, have it available for downloading before deleting.
Personally: In a replay I'm not that interested in dice-rolls; just who owns what land.
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Game Log

Postby Mirak on Sat Sep 23, 2006 2:10 pm

I would find it helpful if the game log also listed failed attacks on territories
Also perhaps number of armies linvolved in each attack
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Postby P Gizzle on Sat Sep 23, 2006 2:14 pm

i think it has been suggested and rejected, but i like the idea
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Postby zip_disk on Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:43 pm

Its under game log 2.0 I think.
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