Don't Automatically Delete Clan War / Tournament Games

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Don't Automatically Delete Clan War / Tournament Games

Postby kmhebert on Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:32 am

MOD EDIT: The updated limit should go from 15 days to 30 days. Hopefully, no further extensions will be necessary, as this is a pretty lenient system. It should be noted that just because the games stick around longer, all rules of clan wars and tournaments should still be followed.

After a certain period of time, unjoined games are deleted. Clan War and Tournament games should be excluded from this automatic deletion.

The following games were deleted from Grim Reapers vs Army of Kings' war; recreating them will be time consuming and ultimately this should not be necessary.

Game 13179384 Standard Middle Ages
Game 13179406 Doubles City Mogul
Game 13179404 Doubles Canada
Game 13179399 Doubles Battle For Iraq!
Game 13179394 Doubles Age Of Realms 2: Magic
Game 13179388 Doubles Feudal War
Game 13179421 Triples Supermax: Prison Riot!
Game 13179417 Triples Patch Wars
Game 13179414 Triples 8 Thoughts
Game 13179412 Triples Balkan Peninsula
Game 13179409 Triples City Mogul
Game 13179452 Quadruples British Isles
Game 13179435 Quadruples Luxembourg
Game 13179434 Quadruples Doodle Earth
Game 13179432 Quadruples Indochina
Game 13179428 Quadruples Eastern Hemisphere

For clan wars and tournaments, any number of factors may delay a game starting or being joined. I could understand deleting these after a long time has passed (one year), but ultimately as a percentage of total games wars and tournaments are not a huge factor, and the data storage requirements for Conquer Club are minimal to maintain these games for a longer period of time.


How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:
  • More flexibility for tournament organizers
  • No frustrating game deletion
  • Save time for not having to recreate potentially very large numbers of games
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Re: Don't Automatically Delete Clan War / Tournament Games

Postby DoomYoshi on Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:09 am

I could support this. Not sure what the current limit is, but it makes sense if we double it.
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Re: Don't Automatically Delete Clan War / Tournament Games

Postby greenoaks on Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:20 am

i thought there were Clan War rules that games needed to be joined within a certain period of time. as those rules specify a timeframe shorter than the game deletion period surely the fault here is solely the clans involved.

abide by your clan war rules and clan games being automatically deleted will never be a problem.
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Re: Don't Automatically Delete Clan War / Tournament Games

Postby patrickaa317 on Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:58 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:I could support this. Not sure what the current limit is, but it makes sense if we double it.


I'd agree with this. I don't think we don't want to auto delete them otherwise we'll have a crap ton of games that were created for tourneys in advance only to have the TO abandon the tourney.
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Re: Don't Automatically Delete Clan War / Tournament Games

Postby kmhebert on Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:36 pm

greenoaks wrote:i thought there were Clan War rules that games needed to be joined within a certain period of time. as those rules specify a timeframe shorter than the game deletion period surely the fault here is solely the clans involved.

abide by your clan war rules and clan games being automatically deleted will never be a problem.


Ideally sure but the main arguments against this were thoroughly addressed in the Supreme Court case Shit vs Happens. There is no downside to keeping games around a bit longer, and the upside is real. So I say, let's get it done.
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Re: Don't Automatically Delete Clan War / Tournament Games

Postby kmhebert on Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:20 pm

so...?
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Re: Don't Automatically Delete Clan War / Tournament Games

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Oct 13, 2013 12:22 pm

I think some posts in this thread got deleted by the database reset. I asked how long a game lasts before it is deleted. Night Strike responded that it was two weeks. Both of us agreed that this is more than enough time for a clan to join a game if they're serious about playing it.
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Re: Don't Automatically Delete Clan War / Tournament Games

Postby agentcom on Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:08 am

Metsfanmax wrote:I think some posts in this thread got deleted by the database reset. I asked how long a game lasts before it is deleted. Night Strike responded that it was two weeks. Both of us agreed that this is more than enough time for a clan to join a game if they're serious about playing it.


That sums it up from my recollection. I didn't sense strong support. I think I might've posted in here agreeing that it didn't seem necessary. I think you posted something about extending the limit rather than abolishing it. IMO, 2 weeks is plenty and we definitely need to auto-delete at some point because unlike regular games, these games aren't open to be joined, so would sit there forever or require manual purging from time-to-time (which of course is what the limit is meant to prevent).
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Re: Don't Automatically Delete Clan War / Tournament Games

Postby greenoaks on Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:09 am

Metsfanmax wrote:I think some posts in this thread got deleted by the database reset. I asked how long a game lasts before it is deleted. Night Strike responded that it was two weeks. Both of us agreed that this is more than enough time for a clan to join a game if they're serious about playing it.

it is deleted on the 15th day. a period longer than the joining games rules of clan wars.
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Re: Don't Automatically Delete Clan War / Tournament Games

Postby DoomYoshi on Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:36 pm

greenoaks wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:I think some posts in this thread got deleted by the database reset. I asked how long a game lasts before it is deleted. Night Strike responded that it was two weeks. Both of us agreed that this is more than enough time for a clan to join a game if they're serious about playing it.

it is deleted on the 15th day. a period longer than the joining games rules of clan wars.


This is the rule from their war:
Game Creation: Games will be created as soon as possible upon granting of privileges. As soon as all games are filled for a given round, game creation for the next round will begin, to enable a fast paced war with a lot of concurrent games. There will be no penalty for inability to adhere to this rule, however clan contacts will be diligent in self-enforcing this.


Most clans don`t use loose rules like this. We have set dates. Since this rule will only help out at most 2 or 3 clans, I think we can reject it.
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Re: Don't Automatically Delete Clan War / Tournament Games

Postby kmhebert on Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:28 pm

I just don't see the specific harm of a longer limit or no limit.
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Re: Don't Automatically Delete Clan War / Tournament Games

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:51 pm

The harm of no limit is obvious: if the games are never filled, we could have those games lingering in the database forever, waiting to be joined, which is just all around a bad idea.
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Re: Don't Automatically Delete Clan War / Tournament Games

Postby patrickaa317 on Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:41 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:
greenoaks wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:I think some posts in this thread got deleted by the database reset. I asked how long a game lasts before it is deleted. Night Strike responded that it was two weeks. Both of us agreed that this is more than enough time for a clan to join a game if they're serious about playing it.

it is deleted on the 15th day. a period longer than the joining games rules of clan wars.


This is the rule from their war:
Game Creation: Games will be created as soon as possible upon granting of privileges. As soon as all games are filled for a given round, game creation for the next round will begin, to enable a fast paced war with a lot of concurrent games. There will be no penalty for inability to adhere to this rule, however clan contacts will be diligent in self-enforcing this.


Most clans don`t use loose rules like this. We have set dates. Since this rule will only help out at most 2 or 3 clans, I think we can reject it.


I'd agree. If the other team isn't going to be able to join within two weeks, they should be letting you know.
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Re: Don't Automatically Delete Clan War / Tournament Games

Postby kmhebert on Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:41 am

patrickaa317 wrote:I'd agree. If the other team isn't going to be able to join within two weeks, they should be letting you know.


Agreed, in our case one of the opposing clan's players, who was the war contact, had some real life issues and disappeared. By the time we got a new contact and he was granted the privileges, the games were deleted. Just kind of an annoyance for me to have to re-create them all, and an un-needed one at that.

I think that the idea that holding on to clan war / tournament games for say 6 or 8 weeks vs 2 will be an issue to the database is not a credible answer. Compared to the 11,334,878 games stored in the database at present, a couple hundred max games that might fit in this situation are not a storage or resources issue. So beyond that, what is the real problem here? Again, I am comparing the imaginary / non-existent problems caused by keeping the games vs the actual and existing problems caused by deleting them.

Most clans don`t use loose rules like this. We have set dates. Since this rule will only help out at most 2 or 3 clans, I think we can reject it.


And this is also not a great answer. Why not word it this way: "Since this rule will help out at least 2 or 3 clans, and hurt no one, I think we can accept it".
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Re: Don't Automatically Delete Clan War / Tournament Games

Postby chapcrap on Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:52 pm

Speaking for the TD's on this subject, I have this to say:

The reason the limit is there is so that games are not sitting around forever. These are private games that no one can join on their own. If the TO, clan leader, or game creator can not get people to join games within two weeks, then that person either has time management issues or people aren't accepting invites and should be forced to forfeit. This is also partially a server space thing. The bottom line is, don't create your games months ahead of time and you'll be fine.

As a player, why the crap are you inviting me to a clan game that isn't gonna start for weeks? That's annoying to me. To just have games waiting and no clear idea when they are actually gonna start. If a clan game or tournament game is sitting there more than a couple days without people joining it, I'm letting people know.

Additionally, as a clan leader, TD, and TO, I'm gonna go ahead and say that remaking these games is usually a lot bigger pain for tournaments than clans. For clans, you already know your teams in your head, and it's probably only gonna be 12-20 games. For TO's, it could be a lot more games, with teams, players, maps, and settings that they are not inherently familiar with.

In summation, speaking from all aspects of my CC life (TD, TO, clan leader, Suggs Mod, SoC Team Trainer, etc.) I can see no reason to extend the time period for private/tournament games to start.
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Re: Don't Automatically Delete Clan War / Tournament Games

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:45 pm

chap's on point, but then there should probably be a rule in place in the clans world about what happens if your team doesn't join within two weeks. What happens if both clans don't join? We should either shore that up, or extend the timeout limit.
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Re: Don't Automatically Delete Clan War / Tournament Games

Postby chapcrap on Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:57 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:chap's on point, but then there should probably be a rule in place in the clans world about what happens if your team doesn't join within two weeks. What happens if both clans don't join? We should either shore that up, or extend the timeout limit.

I think that is something for clans to consider themselves, as a policy standpoint. Typically, each event has been subject to it's own rules and deadlines. That said, I've never had an opponent take two weeks to join games. I think this topic was likely spurred by the OP creating games much earlier than was required.
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Re: Don't Automatically Delete Clan War / Tournament Games

Postby kmhebert on Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:53 pm

Heh just to be a bug about this, I will ask, is having games around a bit longer a real real problem, or a fake real problem? I get that people should join games fast and not send out invites that won't get joined up on, 100%. I definitely agree on that part of it. I am just saying, if/when it doesn't work that way, it's a pain to recreate games. And, I just can't get behind the idea that there is a drive space, database resource, or other technical problem created by extending for a couple weeks.

Heh maybe this problem is related to my specific circumstance with this particular war; it never happened to me before and most likely won't again. BUT it was enough of a pain in the ass that I thought a good solution would be to just extend the deadline. HA from now on I guess I'll just include a forfeit rule in my clans wars. "If one clan creates games for a round and the other clan fails to join them before they are automatically deleted by the system, those games are forfeit such that the clan that failed to join will lose all those games". Heh maybe I even like that solution better!

But I still will say I can't get behind the idea that extending the deadline is a "real real" problem!
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Re: Don't Automatically Delete Clan War / Tournament Games

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:27 pm

No one is really arguing that there's a substantive reason against having a slightly longer limit. We're arguing that the cost of expending developer time on this change is probably not worth it, given the pretty minor (and likely fixable, given the clan rule discussion) benefit.
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Re: Don't Automatically Delete Clan War / Tournament Games

Postby chapcrap on Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:38 pm

I'm not sure if it's real real or fake real as far as server space and that stuff goes. I really couldn't tell you. But, in my opinion, there does need to be some kind of deadline for this and I see no reason to extend it. Reasons already stated.
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Re: Don't Automatically Delete Clan War / Tournament Games

Postby kmhebert on Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:46 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:No one is really arguing that there's a substantive reason against having a slightly longer limit. We're arguing that the cost of expending developer time on this change is probably not worth it, given the pretty minor (and likely fixable, given the clan rule discussion) benefit.


I'll pay the forty cents to change the number 14 to 35!!! Heh I am not super heated about this, I think it would be slightly better for all concerned especially clan war / tournament organizers, but honestly the technical arguments have been pretty weak.

chapcrap wrote: I think this topic was likely spurred by the OP creating games much earlier than was required.


And this one is just 100% incorrect, as I said it was due to real life issues which can happen to anyone at any time.

chapcrap wrote:But, in my opinion, there does need to be some kind of deadline for this and I see no reason to extend it. Reasons already stated.


It would have been nice in the circumstance of me re-creating all these games; each time that happens is a good reason to extend it. BUT this is clearly not going to happen, I am just going to include the join requirement in my war terms from this point forward.
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Re: Don't Automatically Delete Clan War / Tournament Games

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:13 pm

kmhebert wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:No one is really arguing that there's a substantive reason against having a slightly longer limit. We're arguing that the cost of expending developer time on this change is probably not worth it, given the pretty minor (and likely fixable, given the clan rule discussion) benefit.


I'll pay the forty cents to change the number 14 to 35!!! Heh I am not super heated about this, I think it would be slightly better for all concerned especially clan war / tournament organizers, but honestly the technical arguments have been pretty weak.


It is not simply a matter of changing the default time-out length, because you are asking for it to be different for clan games than for other games.
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Re: Don't Automatically Delete Clan War / Tournament Games

Postby kmhebert on Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:39 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:It is not simply a matter of changing the default time-out length, because you are asking for it to be different for clan games than for other games.


That's fair, still think it would be easy enough but again it's not going to make me like quit Conquer Club, I understand it's not important enough to everyone to do it.
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Re: Don't Automatically Delete Clan War / Tournament Games

Postby kennys777 on Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:00 am

I was linked here by Icepack, but I am running a tournament consisting of 219 maps, currently in round 2, and 4 groups of 6 players.

So there were 280 maps created, and 1680 invites needed to start round 2. My co-contributor made the games early so we could be ready to move on, but some players were dragging out round 1 games making it impossible to mathematically eliminate the low 8 players. Anyway, Hopalong invited group 1 which is 420 invites. I had gotten through 140 invites, and then next morning...POOF!

272 out of the 280 disappeared because the players had not all joined. Even though some joined...I agree with this idea, and if it can't go to this extreme, at least an invite should extend the life of a game not yet active?

Or if a player has joined and is awaiting others to accept their invites, the game should not be auto-deleted.
kizkiz was invited to all his 70 games, and he accepted them all, but because I couldn't get through all the invites (took me 20 minutes per player), all the games he joined (less 2) were deleted.

For the record let me say that the 8 games that survived were created later because we realized we missed those on our list. Anyway, I totally agree that tournament and clan war games should be excluded from this 15 day rule, or at least give us 6 weeks or 8 weeks.

An extension would have been fine for us, because we got delayed waiting for active games to finish and being unable to start inviting for round 2...I am a person who is organized, and the 15 day rule is a rush causing people like me to rush through things, which create mistakes long term!!!!


imho
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Re: Don't Automatically Delete Clan War / Tournament Games

Postby hopalong on Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:12 am

kennys777 wrote:I was linked here by Icepack, but I am running a tournament consisting of 219 maps, currently in round 2, and 4 groups of 6 players.

So there were 280 maps created, and 1680 invites needed to start round 2. My co-contributor made the games early so we could be ready to move on, but some players were dragging out round 1 games making it impossible to mathematically eliminate the low 8 players. Anyway, Hopalong invited group 1 which is 420 invites. I had gotten through 140 invites, and then next morning...POOF!

272 out of the 280 disappeared because the players had not all joined. Even though some joined...I agree with this idea, and if it can't go to this extreme, at least an invite should extend the life of a game not yet active?

Or if a player has joined and is awaiting others to accept their invites, the game should not be auto-deleted.
kizkiz was invited to all his 70 games, and he accepted them all, but because I couldn't get through all the invites (took me 20 minutes per player), all the games he joined (less 2) were deleted.

For the record let me say that the 8 games that survived were created later because we realized we missed those on our list. Anyway, I totally agree that tournament and clan war games should be excluded from this 15 day rule, or at least give us 6 weeks or 8 weeks.

An extension would have been fine for us, because we got delayed waiting for active games to finish and being unable to start inviting for round 2...I am a person who is organized, and the 15 day rule is a rush causing people like me to rush through things, which create mistakes long term!!!!


imho


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