Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

[Izual_Rebirth]

I think the questions here should be...

If every game turned out like this would anyone mind?
If a newcomer comes to the game and loses his first game like this is he going to want to stay for more?

I'm not sure if it's right or not. But I don't think it should be allowed to continue just because if everyone started doing it then I don't think I'd want to stick around.

[Kiron]

I think the questions here should be...

If every game turned out like this would anyone mind?
If a newcomer comes to the game and loses his first game like this is he going to want to stay for more?

I'm not sure if it's right or not. But I don't think it should be allowed to continue just because if everyone started doing it then I don't think I'd want to stick around.

sigh...I think it's been established that this 1 game was a misunderstanding of the rules regarding the deal and it won't happen again. Also newcomers cannot play 8 player maps. Can this thread be closed now since the OP question has been answered regarding the game in question?

[Seulessliathan]

Also newcomers cannot play 8 player maps.

Game 12456643
Game 12458415
Game 12459996
Game 12460108
Game 12460322

Newcomers in all of them, if you need a dozen more examples , feel free to pm me.
So these guys are hackers? I suggest you fill a C&A report against them quickly.

Of course, you can't prove or disprove it, so it's innocence until proven guilty (you're going to have to trust our word, hard i know)

Well, i can´t say it´s getting easier.

[xiangwang]

Also newcomers cannot play 8 player maps.

Game 12456643
Game 12458415
Game 12459996
Game 12460108
Game 12460322

Newcomers in all of them, if you need a dozen more examples , feel free to pm me.
So these guys are hackers? I suggest you fill a C&A report against them quickly.

Of course, you can't prove or disprove it, so it's innocence until proven guilty (you're going to have to trust our word, hard i know)

Well, i can´t say it´s getting easier.

I think kiron probably meant to say new players probably can't play 3rd crusade maps until they get ranks

[codeblue1018]

Also newcomers cannot play 8 player maps.

Game 12456643
Game 12458415
Game 12459996
Game 12460108
Game 12460322

Newcomers in all of them, if you need a dozen more examples , feel free to pm me.
So these guys are hackers? I suggest you fill a C&A report against them quickly.

Of course, you can't prove or disprove it, so it's innocence until proven guilty (you're going to have to trust our word, hard i know)

Well, i can´t say it´s getting easier.

I think kiron probably meant to say new players probably can't play 3rd crusade maps until they get ranks

Is a newcomer on this site recognized by a ? Mark; if so, newcomers can play 8 person games.

[Kaskavel]

This is a complex case. Instead of offering an answer to the accusations, I will emphasize to the roots of the problem
1. Freestyle setting combined with objectives. This setting by itself creates problems. I can hardly imagine playing 10 games in this setting with 7 of my friends and not us ending up angry with each other. Suspicions raise all the time, the boundaries between cheating and unfair become grey and people already friends to each other obtain superior winning chances without having to cheat, just by trusting each other
2. Friends playing together in non escalating games. I solved those problems a long time ago, by almost never joining non-escalating games with my friends. If I was playing with mc or sirJohn 8 player flat rate games, I would now have the same problems. I made a decision and it works just fine. You can have your fun with friends in escalating games or assasin games, but not in diplomacy based games
3. The real issue in the presented case is not if the agreement is legal. It is whether those two playes are intentionaly or unintentionaly (and this makes the case even more complex) cheating by playing together in this game from the first place. It is quite obvious that this cannot be answered or proven, no matter how many pages are written down in forums.
4. Kiron made a mistake. A mistake from a subjective point of view. He became conqueror through that moraly shaky game and I imagine he has already regretted it. No matter if he cheated or not and no matter if he deserves to be conqueror or not, the mere fact that his last game from marshal to conqueror was decided in a debatable way will now hunt him down. Fair or not fair, I dont know, but the fact is that people will tend to describe Kiron as "oh...that guy who cheated that game to become conqueror", spoiling his player career. This psycology of the masses is not fair, a player at Kiron's level does not have anything to prove to anyone (unless we believe he is cheating all his career), in fact no marshall or general has anything to prove to anyone. Any general is obviousy a powerful player who could become conqueror if he concentrates to favourable tactics for a period of time and it should not be that important what happened in that specific game. After all, he could become conqueror next game or become an "almost conqueror". Is that really so important? In that case, would he be a fair conqueror, but now he is an unfair conqueror?
5. Freestyle concept. Not all people understand freestyle in the same way. Some intercept freestyle 3rd crusade as a setting that makes games faster to play and some others like a game that you have to wait for the last hour to play, so as not to be left out of the "big deal". Obviously, from a cold objective point of view, the second category of players are correct and will win the game 100% of the time. Freestyle was invented as a way to play faster, but "scientists" of this site has evolved it into a heavily complex setting, where unexperienced players cannot possibly survive
As a conclusion, I repeat again that the simplest thing is to avoid friends in non escalating games and in diplomacy based games in general. I also just avoid multiplayer freestyles as well, it turns out that real life gets significantly favored by this tactic, but again, this is just me.

Well said mate. Thing is, freestyle is a very fun aspect to this game; it does however, have an attribute to it that can be manipulated as you just mentioned especially in objective games I.E third crusade, oasis to name a couple. People have made an awful lot of points playing in this manner. I am certain Kiron and X are very good players and can win games by themselves. A lot of people lost respect for the number 1 spot on the scoreboard and I don't blame their reasons for that. We must remember that there have been several conquerors that do deserve the respect of holding that spot, including you Kaskaval and there will be more to come so we need not judge a few and lose sight of that. I hardly doubt Kiron will lose sleep over the fact that people lost respect for him if they ever had it to begin with so to me, that is irrelevant. What bothers me is the facts that COF brought to the communities attention; these facts if you will are hard to ignore. That in conjunction with the fact that Kiron and X utilize the same computer in the same household and Kiron writing in his words logged in on X's account is proof to me that shenanigans happen. X claims he forgot to log off, which is why Kiron assumed he was on his own account; I'm not buying that story. Nonetheless, it's over; the mods with make a ruling soon.

Great post Kask, but some points from my perspective.

1. Well, nothing wrong with manipulating game settings to your advantage. Is that not the point of battles? Fight battles with as much odds in your favour regardless of the opposition? Just speaking for myself, I don't invite beginners to my games, they are free to join, just like they are free to join any other game. How is that any different than creating lots of 1v1 games or lots of teams games with crushing team composition where the game creators have a very strong advantage against unsuspecting players (not our fault players don't read the map rules)

2. Just because some prefer without friends, some prefer to play with friends. That's just a matter of preference, you can't say one is superior to another.

3. Well, i'm not going to bother into that point since you already where I stand on it and there isn't i can do to convince you otherwise other than what you yourself said, it cannot be proven. After all, in the words of Justice Lord Black "it's better to let 100 guilty go free to accidentally convict one innocent man".

4. Kiron doesn't care about his reputation. He is known on his comments for scheming, backstabbing, not trustworthy, etc. He only cares about winning similar to me. That's our philosophy when playing Risk, hate the game but not the player and it's been successful in getting victories.

5. I say it's a hybrid. I like freestyle because it's faster, especially as a freemium. But waiting and not losing leverage is also important in either objective or non objective games. Learning specifically from our game Kask, going first got me killed in a 4 way coordinated attack despite being game leader by a large margin because I lost leverage.

Avoiding is possible, just not preferable because it's a matter of preference. Will some suspect cheating because of RL friends? Yes, but unless CC makes a specific policy regarding RL friends and the game to play, it's not really fair to block some and not others.

@codeblue, I already mentioned that was an honest mistake regarding forgetting to log out. I was just annoyed and Kiron was in a rush to disprove a point (I think he doesn't care anymore, he's just finishing his last game now to my knowledge) so mistakes can happen, but we do our best to limit it, not just for the site, but we have our own incentives to play sporty because we are also playing against each other and no point winning against each other if we are cheating.

Regarding this game in question from the OP, it's already been resolved. We already admitted it was an honest mistake from misunderstanding of the rules (and OP agreed also) and we already got punished for it from the MODs.

2. Oh, I never said that I prefer without friends. That is my suggestion. I personaly find it much easier and simpler to avoid that and have my fun with friends in an escalating game or in an assasin game. Just check the size of the chat in the last 4 assasins I played with mc, sirJohn, geots etc and you will see what I mean, lol. I have my fun, I cannot be accused in flats and no spoils and I can play flats and no spoils with strangers without pshycologocal reasons affecting my decisions, ending up in unintentional subconcious cheating. No matter how fair you may think you are, when red is my pal and green is just a guy, your decisions cannot be completely fair, unless the style of the game (escalating or assasin) dictates them to be so.

[Armandolas]

Didnt read all posts, but definitly there is not much to read.
When u arrange a result for the benefit of the scoreboard it must be considered cheating or game adulteration.
Its very simple. A football team cannot give a way 3 points just because they are allready relegated. No matter what circunstance an agreement is made.
It is cheap because there are other people involved, not only in the game itself, but also in the scoreboard.
Play nice , play fair

[KraphtOne]

So weird that even in the forums "they" are always on at the same time... And typically alternate posts...

Once in this thread it was even a little obvious that "one of the people" forgot to log out of the "other person's" profile before posting...

Just seems to me that you guys are missing the forest from the trees...

[nietzsche]

for a couple of hours qwert has been making me laugh in LC with commentary about kiron and xiangwang

i wish i had saved all the comments lol

here are just the last:

13:14:50 ‹qwert› lets jump into forum for latest news, with flying reporter qwert

13:45:20 ‹qwert› but i realy enjoy in X-K sitcome

13:45:39 ‹qwert› its like two and a half man

13:46:24 ‹qwert› only what left after every post,its audience laught

13:47:45 ‹qwert› charlie are K,, alan are X,and jake are D

[jsnyder748]

Who is D?

[nietzsche]

Who is D?

drakedevil or something, another "roomate"

[eddie2]

Who is D?

lol it is a smiley a little orange shaped figure with a smile...

on another note this is my last post on this matter...

i have been involved in 2 cases against conquers if any of you remember and really have not taken any part of this case and not really looked into it or posted a lot..

this 2 me is the worst one yet out of them i have seen because to me it looks like this guy has got off with running 5 or 6 accounts (from what has been in the threads) used glgs farming technique and king achilles has given them the curtsey of pming them for there point of view of this before deciding the result... the longer this case goes on the further they dig themselves into a hole...

the final straw for me was when kiron posted on xangs account and said later it was a mistake because he forgot to log out and xang saying kiron used his account to browse the forum (something i got a ban for doing on a clan mates account while i was sitting for him and was told this could be classed as account sharing) so for them to still be active members means there is some bias going on here.

ow and ps many say i was jealous for there ranks i was not and will tell you why...

blitz case was because of 2 things,,,
1)he flamed me in a thread and because i called him a d***head for it i got a forum ban and he got let of with the flame
2)jobiwan was someone who played in all the tourneys i run and i didnt think it was fair about what was happening...

glg case...

this was simple about how he abused others and flaunted he could get away with it in the forums and live chat (a regular place i visit and he used this as his main ranching area.) my final straw was when he got chariotoffire a forum ban for speaking the truth about him i thought i would get involved in the cases via him

[nietzsche]

Who is D?

lol it is a smiley a little orange shaped figure with a smile...

No, he means Drakeavril

viewtopic.php?f=239&t=87952&p=2036328&hilit=Kiron#p2035813

[SaMejoHn]

Who is D?

lol it is a smiley a little orange shaped figure with a smile...

on another note this is my last post on this matter...

i have been involved in 2 cases against conquers if any of you remember and really have not taken any part of this case and not really looked into it or posted a lot..

this 2 me is the worst one yet out of them i have seen because to me it looks like this guy has got off with running 5 or 6 accounts (from what has been in the threads) used glgs farming technique and king achilles has given them the curtsey of pming them for there point of view of this before deciding the result... the longer this case goes on the further they dig themselves into a hole...

the final straw for me was when kiron posted on xangs account and said later it was a mistake because he forgot to log out and xang saying kiron used his account to browse the forum (something i got a ban for doing on a clan mates account while i was sitting for him and was told this could be classed as account sharing) so for them to still be active members means there is some bias going on here.

ow and ps many say i was jealous for there ranks i was not and will tell you why...

blitz case was because of 2 things,,,
1)he flamed me in a thread and because i called him a d***head for it i got a forum ban and he got let of with the flame
2)jobiwan was someone who played in all the tourneys i run and i didnt think it was fair about what was happening...

glg case...

this was simple about how he abused others and flaunted he could get away with it in the forums and live chat (a regular place i visit and he used this as his main ranching area.) my final straw was when he got chariotoffire a forum ban for speaking the truth about him i thought i would get involved in the cases via him

good thing this is your last post. that was awful. Many people bring up the kiron posting on Xiangwang's account..but really for two roomamtes sharing a computer that is not so hard to imagine. It was probably a silly mistake that could have happened to any of us(if we had roommate with whom we shared computer with). If it was in game, where you are force to see your name highlighted in blue then id understand why everyone is so crazed over it. If he knew he was on X's account and hence constituting account sharing..then why would he write as if he was Kiron. Or do we think Kiron is that stupid?

[Mr Changsha]

My 8 man dubs record stands at a creditable 43 percent, however I realise that my great mistake has been to allow my opposition to be aware that they are actually also in dubs game. Now xiangwang and kiron are so very much smarter than me, for THEIR win rate at 8 man dubs is a whopping 73 percent - but then their oppositon are under the misguided impression that they are in standard game!

As a standard no cards/flat player myself (if of the sequential variety), why didn't I play half of my standard games with my real-life buddies? Well, the simple reason is that even the possibility that there could be private collusion in a public game absolutely disgusts me, it disgusts my friends too...and so we have always played seperately. If we wanted to play together in a standard-like game we played 8 man dubs. One of the elements of this that is so disreputable is that they have had the option of playing 8 man dubs all this time yet chose to play together in standard games. Why? Well I refer you all back to my opening paragraph.

This is to me the fundamental point about kiron and xiangwang. It is perfectly obvious that there have been sixty-odd games where they have operated under a secret alliance. Their defence is that it cannot be PROVEN that they have done so. Yet we know that is exactly what has happened. Our understanding of basic human nature tells us that even the most honourable would be sorely tempted to discuss a position over their morning coffee, yet we are to believe that these two have absolutely and completely refrained from doing so? Does anyone believe that? Yet it cannot be proven because they haven't written anything down in a pm etc? Well then CC must make the required intellectual leap...and BAN both of these players for a gross abuse of this website's rules.

[BigBallinStalin]

I think the questions here should be...

If every game turned out like this would anyone mind?
If a newcomer comes to the game and loses his first game like this is he going to want to stay for more?

I'm not sure if it's right or not. But I don't think it should be allowed to continue just because if everyone started doing it then I don't think I'd want to stick around.

Seek substitutes. If one cannot run with the Big Dogs of Freestyle, then one is still free to play Standard.

Given ease of switching styles, then I don't see why we should fear that the newcomer will not play Standard and will quit entirely.

[BigBallinStalin]

Didnt read all posts, but definitly there is not much to read.
When u arrange a result for the benefit of the scoreboard it must be considered cheating or game adulteration.
Its very simple. A football team cannot give a way 3 points just because they are allready relegated. No matter what circunstance an agreement is made.
It is cheap because there are other people involved, not only in the game itself, but also in the scoreboard.
Play nice , play fair

1. Open diplomacy entails "arranging a result for the benefit of the scoreboard,"
2. Therefore, "[Open diplomacy] must be considered cheating or game adulteration."
3. Given #2, then ban open diplomacy. (reductio ad absurdum, ftw).

[Kiron]

Also newcomers cannot play 8 player maps.

Game 12456643
Game 12458415
Game 12459996
Game 12460108
Game 12460322

Newcomers in all of them, if you need a dozen more examples , feel free to pm me.
So these guys are hackers? I suggest you fill a C&A report against them quickly.

Of course, you can't prove or disprove it, so it's innocence until proven guilty (you're going to have to trust our word, hard i know)

Well, i can´t say it´s getting easier.

I think kiron probably meant to say new players probably can't play 3rd crusade maps until they get ranks

Is a newcomer on this site recognized by a ? Mark; if so, newcomers can play 8 person games.

okay forgive me, i was under the impression new players had some restrictions. They cannot be 3rd crusade or waterloo games correct?

[BigBallinStalin]

My 8 man dubs record stands at a creditable 43 percent, however I realise that my great mistake has been to allow my opposition to be aware that they are actually also in dubs game. Now xiangwang and kiron are so very much smarter than me, for THEIR win rate at 8 man dubs is a whopping 73 percent - but then their oppositon are under the misguided impression that they are in standard game!

As a standard no cards/flat player myself (if of the sequential variety), why didn't I play half of my standard games with my real-life buddies? Well, the simple reason is that even the possibility that there could be private collusion in a public game absolutely disgusts me, it disgusts my friends too...and so we have always played seperately. If we wanted to play together in a standard-like game we played 8 man dubs. One of the elements of this that is so disreputable is that they have had the option of playing 8 man dubs all this time yet chose to play together in standard games. Why? Well I refer you all back to my opening paragraph.

This is to me the fundamental point about kiron and xiangwang. It is perfectly obvious that there have been sixty-odd games where they have operated under a secret alliance. Their defence is that it cannot be PROVEN that they have done so. Yet we know that is exactly what has happened. Our understanding of basic human nature tells us that even the most honourable would be sorely tempted to discuss a position over their morning coffee, yet we are to believe that these two have absolutely and completely refrained from doing so? Does anyone believe that? Yet it cannot be proven because they haven't written anything down in a pm etc? Well then CC must make the required intellectual leap...and BAN both of these players for a gross abuse of this website's rules.

Good analogy, and I fully agree with the 2nd paragraph. But for me, this position of ours only justifies social shaming--but not CC moderation. (Perhaps K & X should have their names posted on a sticky thread titled "Wall of Shame").

RE: your 3rd paragraph:

1. if josko's statistics are correct,
2. then K & X "do not benefit by playing together in comparing with not playing together."

But,
1. K & X's win rate at 8 man "dubs" is a whopping 73 percent,
2. that doesn't mean much without being able to make relevant and broader comparisons.
3. and how do we know what the acceptable win-rate of 8-player singles freestyle is? Should that average apply to all maps?

3. If we say, "73% with person A is too high,"
4. then should CC punish anyone who (a) plays with a friend on 8 player singles, and (b) has a win rate of >= 73% with them?
(This seems to be where your position draws us).

(A) Is this a reasonable policy?
(B) Is it reasonable if josko's evidence to the contrary is admitted?

[Funkyterrance]

Good analogy, and I fully agree with the 2nd paragraph. But for me, this position of ours only justifies social shaming--but not CC moderation. (Perhaps K & X should have their names posted on a sticky thread titled "Wall of Shame").

BBS, even in a world of no government there exists such a notion as Justice. If it were in the hands of the community, at the very least there would be a stripping of the conqueror medal. Banishment would also be highly probable. If you make a "wall of shame" it will eventually be buried and new players and anyone who doesn't visit the forums or main page will put these guys in the same boat as "legit" conquerors, which would be a disgrace.
Even someone with your purist views regarding authoritarian intervention has got to admit that the punishment ought to fit the crime.

[xiangwang]

My 8 man dubs record stands at a creditable 43 percent, however I realise that my great mistake has been to allow my opposition to be aware that they are actually also in dubs game. Now xiangwang and kiron are so very much smarter than me, for THEIR win rate at 8 man dubs is a whopping 73 percent - but then their oppositon are under the misguided impression that they are in standard game!

As a standard no cards/flat player myself (if of the sequential variety), why didn't I play half of my standard games with my real-life buddies? Well, the simple reason is that even the possibility that there could be private collusion in a public game absolutely disgusts me, it disgusts my friends too...and so we have always played seperately. If we wanted to play together in a standard-like game we played 8 man dubs. One of the elements of this that is so disreputable is that they have had the option of playing 8 man dubs all this time yet chose to play together in standard games. Why? Well I refer you all back to my opening paragraph.

This is to me the fundamental point about kiron and xiangwang. It is perfectly obvious that there have been sixty-odd games where they have operated under a secret alliance. Their defence is that it cannot be PROVEN that they have done so. Yet we know that is exactly what has happened. Our understanding of basic human nature tells us that even the most honourable would be sorely tempted to discuss a position over their morning coffee, yet we are to believe that these two have absolutely and completely refrained from doing so? Does anyone believe that? Yet it cannot be proven because they haven't written anything down in a pm etc? Well then CC must make the required intellectual leap...and BAN both of these players for a gross abuse of this website's rules.

Good analogy, and I fully agree with the 2nd paragraph. But for me, this position of ours only justifies social shaming--but not CC moderation. (Perhaps K & X should have their names posted on a sticky thread titled "Wall of Shame").

RE: your 3rd paragraph:

1. if josko's statistics are correct,
2. then K & X "do not benefit by playing together in comparing with not playing together."

But,
1. K & X's win rate at 8 man "dubs" is a whopping 73 percent,
2. that doesn't mean much without being able to make relevant and broader comparisons.
3. and how do we know what the acceptable win-rate of 8-player singles freestyle is? Should that average apply to all maps?

3. If we say, "73% with person A is too high,"
4. then should CC punish anyone who (a) plays with a friend on 8 player singles, and (b) has a win rate of >= 73% with them?
(This seems to be where your position draws us).

(A) Is this a reasonable policy?
(B) Is it reasonable if josko's evidence to the contrary is admitted?

I believe we already stated by we dislike playing dubs, the win/loss ratio regarding points is not worth it. Each of our win rates is 50-60%. If we played dubs then we would end up with net negatives of points because we lose more points than we win. So playing dubs together would hurt both mine and Kiron's points. We tried a few rounds and well, the loss of points was not worth it. That's like asking why do I play 8 man and not 4 man freestyle? Sorry, 43% is not high for dubs compared to the top players on the scoreboard. I believe Jsnyder said his dubs win rate was 70%+ with his partner. Just because there is a possibility to cheat doesn' mean we DO cheat (it's up to CC to deal with that possibility in a fair way that impacts ALL players equally). Furthermore, if we did cheat then our win rates for playing as a "team" in our 8 player should be WAY higher than playing by ourselves, but statistics shows it's not. Take any other player and if they play as a team, then their win rate would be at least 10-20% higher than playing alone on 8 man freestyle.

Our justice system is based on evidence and allegations. Evidence CANNOT be circumstantial. If the allegations have been proven false then the charges should be acquitted (as in this case since the main argument was that we play with secret diplomacy and as a team to get all our wins), but the statistics show the contrary, there is not significant difference playing together or alone, why? Perhaps we are not working as a team and playing to win for ourselves? Mob rule is not justice, it's just based on unrational emotions on a few pin points issues that are most likely circumstantial or can be refuted with a plausible explanation.

[Funkyterrance]

Thankfully this isn't the US justice system.
We all play the same game here so we are all in our element and can "smell" a cheater better than any snooping system CC can devise.
Why don't you guys cut out the cutesy charade and start over legit? It's the only way to come out of this with any degree of cleanliness. I'm sorry if you spent all this energy towards this goal but the penny's been dropped.
The hardcore players whose respect one should wish to gain with the conqueror position(I'm not referring to myself) aren't buying it and don't seem amused. If anything your actions are an insult to these players.

[Gabriel13]

Good analogy, and I fully agree with the 2nd paragraph. But for me, this position of ours only justifies social shaming--but not CC moderation. (Perhaps K & X should have their names posted on a sticky thread titled "Wall of Shame").

BBS, even in a world of no government there exists such a notion as Justice. If it were in the hands of the community, at the very least there would be a stripping of the conqueror medal. Banishment would also be highly probable. If you make a "wall of shame" it will eventually be buried and new players and anyone who doesn't visit the forums or main page will put these guys in the same boat as "legit" conquerors, which would be a disgrace.
Even someone with your purist views regarding authoritarian intervention has got to admit that the punishment ought to fit the crime.

Why strip him of his conqueror's medal? Our current conqueror hasn't played a game in a month! At least Kiron would play games and might I say RISK it.

[Lindax]

Our justice system is based on evidence and allegations. Evidence CANNOT be circumstantial.

Can you please clarify what "our justice system" is?

CC is a global community. In Mexico for example, you're guilty until you prove your innocence....

[Kiron]

Our justice system is based on evidence and allegations. Evidence CANNOT be circumstantial.

Can you please clarify what "our justice system" is?

CC is a global community. In Mexico for example, you're guilty until you prove your innocence....

I believe he was referring to US common law. But for simpleness sake refer to the UN system of justice as represented by the international court of justice since we're global

And yes, circumstantial evidence there is no where strong enough to prosecute anyone.