PERMABANS (though you did not know it!)

[AndyDufresne]

Noteworthy Posts, roughly in order of appearance, to add to the list of Dicussion on page 6 I think it is:

show: owenshooter post

show: xelable post

show: MrMoody post

show: jbrettlip post

show: Mr Benn post

show: jiminski post

show: General Stoneham post

show: Woodruff post

[AndyDufresne]

And please remember, we are not just discussing Racism, but Bigotry in general.

New Issues disccused since my last post:

• Context of "gray" areas, cited by xelabale on page 8.
• Humor's role in all of this, cited by General Stoneham on page 12.

Additional Solutions or Middle Ground:

• Stern warnings first, followed by increased punishment, perhaps similar to what Timminz outlined, may be a middle ground we can all agree on to help the issue of Context and Humor---allows the user to understand what is acceptable and isn't.
  
• Possible additional and more use of the forum's censor feature.

--Andy

[a.sub]

how about formal CC approved definitions of racism and bigotry

[AndyDufresne]

I've been off the clock for a while now, so this is all out of the kindness of my heart and bushel of bananas. I'm not sure how much I'll be able to check in this evening and this weekend, but I'll still find some time because I think we've made some gains today---over yesterday which seemed more like talking in circles. Lets focus on an end.

Edit P.S. --- If we can come to a middle ground and solve this issue, we'll surely be a model for other community's around the interweb that struggle with this issue. It's quite a big task we are undertaking, so lets make sure to focus our discussion, remain level headed, and above all, respect one another. We're all humans. Except for me, I'm a banana loving monkey, but don't tell anyone.


--Andy

[Woodruff]

Trying to carry it to women, sexism,and even homophobia is just trying to diminish how horrible racism is. Eliminate the racism, then work on the other forms of bigotry.

No. Bigotry is bigotry and the only way one is any more horrible than another is in how they happen to be used at that time...in other words, case-by-case.

[jiminski]

how about formal CC approved definitions of racism and bigotry

hmmm i think that is dangerous. A level of mod jurisdiction and bespoke rulings allow for the luxury of humour and play between mates.
We all know what is undeniably bigoted. If harsher punishment is to be implemented then the blatant examples are the ones which should be come down on harder. With the grey areas, the mods would have to establish a pattern of repeated abuse, i imagine.

I reckon that reports on bigotry should almost exclusively only be scrutinised if the abuse is directed at the reporter of the abuse
i.e. not from a do-gooder third party or random mod checks... that will ensure that the abused is actually being abused and guard against two friends being misunderstood.
Though of course that is still not cut and dry and needs a degree of flexibility to plug the leeks in that general rule.

[a.sub]

Except for me, I'm a banana loving monkey, but don't tell anyone.

SO YOU ARE MADE OF MONEY!!!!!

[AndyDufresne]

Fixed. I've no idea what you are talking about, a.sub. But lets remain on topic, alright?


--Andy

[Woodruff]

not that it matters, but i had no idea Owenshooter was a brother from another mother, seriously though from his avatar i thought he was that dude who played HYDE on "that 70's show".

So I'm not the only one that thought that!

[a.sub]

Fixed. I've no idea what you are talking about, a.sub. But lets remain on topic, alright?


--Andy

ok lol

i still think we need to define bigotry on CC because there are differences

saying
A.Sub is indian
isnt racist, but saying
A.Sub is a towel head
or
A.Sub is a Curry Bro.
is or can at least be taken that way

for example, i have a good friend of mine that is muslim, i joke around and say
"Shouldnt you be blowing up an airport or something?"
to which eh responds something to the effect of
"Go back to ur 7/11 fool"
and we laugh and walk away.

this means two things, one some racism is ok if its all in shits and giggles
OR
racism can only be laughed off as shits and giggles if you are good friends with the person in real life

the former means that we need a definition to allow us to define when something is harmfully racist or not, and the latter requires us to define to what extent something could be called racist

another example:
in my current school, white kids have called black kids niggers and one of two things happen
a) a high five and the two walk off laughing about something else as if "nigger" means nothing
b) a fight breaks out and the two end up bloodied up and the school is a bit more uncomfortable

this also creates a situation for CC in relation to terms that are used to be hateful
that the words nigger/jewboy/cracker and whatnot can be desensitized if no one gave a flying f*ck about them. i knwo these words can hurt but if we chose to simply redefine it the word would lose all its violent enery
the phrase
"Hey <derogatory term> shouldnt you <stereotype>"
can be redefined as
"Im not mature enough to realize that ur race means nothing"
giving you the ability to laugh at them for simply making them selves look stupid
HOWEVER
this, at the same time, cannot be the attitude CC has towards these things. As in, it should encourage this action, but not rely on the victim to adjust because of someone else's hate and anger.
i say this because ignoring certain words is not an easy task, as i will show

nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger

cheese cheese cheese cheese cheese cheese cheese cheese cheese cheese cheese cheese cheese cheese cheese cheese cheese cheese cheese cheese cheese cheese cheese cheese cheese cheese cheese cheese cheese cheese cheese cheese cheese cheese cheese cheese cheese cheese cheese

examine your personal response two those last two paragraphs;
case and point

[AndyDufresne]

Slightly on a sidenote, but still interesting food for thought, since I've read some of Steven Pinker, psychologist and cognitive scientist. An excerpt from an article about some of his studies and books:

show

And for those really interested, I strongly suggest: http://www.booktv.org/watch.aspx?ProgramId=FV-8637 --- Steven Pinker talks about language in general. I'm a nut for this kind of stuff---and bananas. Also, if you watch it, you won't just be thinking deeply, but rolling on the floor laughing---he's got the gift of a comedic delivery as well. Check it out, really.


--Andy

[Snorri1234]

Wow holy shit this thread got big!

Let's see if I can be all racist here without getting banned.

[whitestazn88]

i got a warning for calling a moderator something mean in this thread.

anyways, back on subject, i still think a ban on the first offense could work, especially a short one, maybe 1 day?

[Snorri1234]

i got a warning for calling a moderator something mean in this thread.

anyways, back on subject, i still think a ban on the first offense could work, especially a short one, maybe 1 day?

Dunno, clapper once edited my posts because they were "racist" so I actually doubt whether the mods are smart enough to know what racism is.


The thing is, blatant racism will get called on anyway. People who spout such nonsense will get shouted at and ignored. This thread ignores the key in any online-forum environment which is that when people agree on a certain principle they will enforce their own guidelines. I'd really rather have the mods come in later or after enough complaints to deal with an issue, not jump the gun and make mistakes.

[AndyDufresne]

Thanks for your post, Snorri, your issue about Mods becoming Johnny/Jenny-Come-Latelies is noted!

Edit: Okay, I've really got to leave now. I'll be back tomorrow hopefully. Remember, be courteous or I'll thump your skulls for you.


--Andy

[squishyg]

not that it matters, but i had no idea Owenshooter was a brother from another mother, seriously though from his avatar i thought he was that dude who played HYDE on "that 70's show".

It doesn't matter. Why is his race relevant? Any why assume he's whatever race you assumed he was? Why is the assumption that cc players are young, male, and Caucasian?

Using humor should not bring punishment.

With that said, making fun of people's ethnic background shouldn't be punished. BUT, to use deragotory terms like N!@@er at someone who's Black to dehumanize him/her should not be tolerated.

The thing is, what's funny to one person isn't funny to someone else. Just because you have a buddy who thinks it's hilarious when you call him a derogatory name doesn't mean the other players in your game or participating on the forums find that funny. While there are some black people who are comfortable using the n-word, there are other black people (and a heck of lot of other kinds of people) who find any use of it unacceptable. I think the greater issue is us creating a community where people feel welcome.

[barterer2002]

There are certain words that are always used to be derogatory. They are not ever used in polite conversation. Certainly N is one of them but there are similar words for gays (both male and female), Jewish, Chinese (sometimes applied to all orientals) and Vietnamese. I'm sure there are some that I'm leaving out but these words are used solely for the reason of denigration of another. They have no place in society. For me, use of these terms would warrant an immediate 24 hour ban-especially since I've seen 24 hour bans given for much much more innocuous issues. A second offense would be a longer and, from my perspective, the third strike would remove such a person from the site.

There are other words and phrases that come up that are also designed to be offensive and need to be looked at. Many people have attempted to derail the conversation by trying to show that a line cannot be well drawn but I would say that these need to be looked at with a standard that says "if a reasonable person would have found offense with these comments (assume a background for reasonable person that is in line with the complaining person) then they should go up the ladder" with the ladder in these cases being 1) warning, 2) 1 week ban 3) 1 month ban 4) permaban.

[squishyg]

There are certain words that are always used to be derogatory. They are not ever used in polite conversation. Certainly N is one of them but there are similar words for gays (both male and female), Jewish, Chinese (sometimes applied to all orientals) and Vietnamese. I'm sure there are some that I'm leaving out but these words are used solely for the reason of denigration of another. They have no place in society. For me, use of these terms would warrant an immediate 24 hour ban-especially since I've seen 24 hour bans given for much much more innocuous issues. A second offense would be a longer and, from my perspective, the third strike would remove such a person from the site.

There are other words and phrases that come up that are also designed to be offensive and need to be looked at. Many people have attempted to derail the conversation by trying to show that a line cannot be well drawn but I would say that these need to be looked at with a standard that says "if a reasonable person would have found offense with these comments (assume a background for reasonable person that is in line with the complaining person) then they should go up the ladder" with the ladder in these cases being 1) warning, 2) 1 week ban 3) 1 month ban 4) permaban.

I agree with your point, I think it's pretty commonsense what words are unacceptable, whether they be in jest or not. I would be remiss however, not to point out that "orientals" is such a word. Just thought you would want to know.

[pimpdave]

There is no way I'm going to read all 14 pages of this. I barely got through 2.

Look, everyone. This is a completely needless drama storm, and my oh my, did I have no idea it was going to start.

I wanted to try and deal with this privately but since it's become such a big hoopla, I should write a few lines here.

There was nothing offensive intended in my mangling of Owen's screenname. I often do that as a joke in off topics, breaking people's screenname in a silly place and adding Mr. or Mrs. in front of the name. Go look for yourselves, any of the regulars can attest to that little joke. I started doing it in the "share your views" threads, which I think people mostly found entertaining, or at worst, innocuous.

That's what I was going for here. I honestly thought Owen was kidding at first, when he got upset, but I guess he was really serious. I'm still somewhat flabbergasted as to how anyone could take my breaking up of his screenname that way as racist, but in hindsight, I should have gone with Mr. hooter, as that was the other silly name I was considering.

So please, everyone, drop it. It's not worth the elevated blood pressure, because everyone here who knows me knows full well that I'm not a racist, at all.

[mpjh]

First, you can't kid owenshooter, and you know it. He rightfully has a sensitive skin on this issue. So feigning the "I was kidding" attitude doesn't hold water.

Second, we are all racist because we live in this society; eliminating racism is a goal not an achievement.

If you want to apologize and promise not to do it again, please do.

[Suzy1]

In all seriousness, let's be honest, white people using the "N" word are called racists. But no one uses the "N" word more than "African Americans" themselves!

[pimpdave]

Shut up Suzy. You're not helping.


And mpjh, sure, I promise not to call owen Mr. nshooter again. I now know he doesn't like it. But I can't promise not to accidentally piss off someone. It seriously is ridiculous to think that there was any racist meaning in what I wrote, and I'm honestly rather offended anyone would suggest that I would make racist comments or that there was anything racist in what I did write.

So in some ways, I feel like I deserve an apology myself, and that's part of why I'm reticent to make some big public one to owen.

[Woodruff]

i still think we need to define bigotry on CC because there are differences
saying
A.Sub is indian
isnt racist, but saying
A.Sub is a towel head
or
A.Sub is a Curry Bro.
is or can at least be taken that way
for example, i have a good friend of mine that is muslim, i joke around and say
"Shouldnt you be blowing up an airport or something?"
to which eh responds something to the effect of
"Go back to ur 7/11 fool"
and we laugh and walk away.
this means two things, one some racism is ok if its all in shits and giggles
OR
racism can only be laughed off as shits and giggles if you are good friends with the person in real life
the former means that we need a definition to allow us to define when something is harmfully racist or not, and the latter requires us to define to what extent something could be called racist

I think you make a good point here, and I would say the following...if nobody is offended by a statement, then it doesn't matter (in other words, if everyone took it as "shits and giggles among friends"). Now, that does NOT mean "if the person it was directed at isn't offended"...because if Owenshooter (just to use an example) is in a game with someone who uses a racial slur against someone else in the game, Owenshooter may still be offended by the statement. Who the statement is directed at is irrelevant. And of course, this blows up pretty large in the forums where (unlike in a game), it's not just a "very limited audience" who might see and be offended by the statement.

In other words, no action is taken unless a statement is reported. Does that make sense?

[Woodruff]

i got a warning for calling a moderator something mean in this thread.
anyways, back on subject, i still think a ban on the first offense could work, especially a short one, maybe 1 day?

Dunno, clapper once edited my posts because they were "racist" so I actually doubt whether the mods are smart enough to know what racism is.

The thing is, blatant racism will get called on anyway. People who spout such nonsense will get shouted at and ignored. This thread ignores the key in any online-forum environment which is that when people agree on a certain principle they will enforce their own guidelines. I'd really rather have the mods come in later or after enough complaints to deal with an issue, not jump the gun and make mistakes.

You're absolutely right about "when people agree on a certain principle, they will enforce their own guidelines". However, on a site as large as this one, that agreement is never going to happen.

[Suzy1]

I stated a fact. It wasn't directed at anyone. If this isn't open for discussion, take it private!