PERMABANS (though you did not know it!)

[AndyDufresne]

Okay, so I've listed the three discussion eras below---for easy reference to particular noteworthy posts, issues, middle grounds, etc.

Era One Discussion
Era Two Discussion
Era Three Discussion

=====================================================

Era One, Issues Summation:

• Bigotry is more prevalent in CC than thought---a large portion occurs in Game Chats and PM, though some also occurrs in the Forums (I'm assumingly mostly GD, Off Topics, and Usergroups).
• Bigotry is ineffectively or inconsistently dealt with. I.E. Team CC does this, and/or Conquer Club in general does not offer enough tools (like the Foe List, Reporting Posts) to add to a user's arsenal to combat such issues.
• Bigotry should be punished more severely than other "No-No's" from the Community Guidelines.
  
  
  As for the otherside:
  
• Bigotry is being used by individuals to troll/spam/cause general chaos for fun.
• Bigotry is dealt with when reported.

Era One, Middle Grounds Proposed:

• Possible addition of a "Report Link" in Active Games (hwhrhett).
• Increased punishment scale for Bigotry over other less community impacting No-No's (such as spamming) (many users contributed to this). A few scales proposed:
  • 1 Strike and Done (Bruceswar).
  • Small Initial Vacation, Increased Vacation, Permanent Vacation (owenator, whitestazn88, owenshooter).
  • Middle Initial Vacation, Permanent Vacation (xxtig12683xx, squishyg).
  • Warning, Increased Vacation, Permanent Vacation (Andy Dufresne, General Stoneham).
  • Stick with the Current Scale of Punishment (barterer2002, Artimis)

=====================================================

Era Two, Issues Summation:

• Context of "gray" areas, cited by xelabale on page 8.
• Humor's role in all of this, cited by General Stoneham on page 12.

Era Two, Middle Grounds Proposed:

• Stern warnings first, followed by increased punishment, perhaps similar to what Timminz outlined, may be a middle ground we can all agree on to help the issue of Context and Humor---allows the user to understand what is acceptable and isn't.
  
• Possible additional and more use of the forum's censor feature.

======================================================

Era Three, Issues Summation:

• Who gets offended when, cited by A.sub and woodruff on page 14.
• What is offensive, isn't always bigoted, cited by xelable on page 14---"Context" is still key.
• Keep your personal information private when possible, responsibility, cited by Mr Changsha on page 17/18.

Middle Grounds Proposed:

• Community consultation/questionaire (Need more info).
• Increased punishment for reports when the abused party reports, to keep misunderstandings to a minimum (jiminski).
• Clarify bigotry rules, what is allowed, what isn't, the context, when, etc, via community consultation (thegreekdog).

--Andy

[AndyDufresne]

Alright, so I think my above post covers most everything that we have discussed. Forgive me if I've left something out--feel free to post about it.

So far, looking at the above post:

• Those who have responded would like to see Increased Severity of Punishment for Bigotry, due to it's sensitive nature on a user, group of users, and community as a whole. The exact scale is something open for discussion. See Era One.
• Context and humor is key to avoid misunderstandings. This I think is something that has to be taken into account when discussing the Punishment Scale.

Proposed Tool Additions:

• The addition a "Report Link" may be a worthwhile tool to have. Additional thoughts?
• More use of the Forum's Censor feature.
• Possible Community Consultation Questionaire. More details needed. Thoughts?
• Clarify Bigotry Rules via Community Consultation. Thoughts?

--Andy

[Timminz]

For example, if you were to call pimpdave the n-word, I'm pretty certain that he would not be offended,

Well, actually, I'd be shocked and would bristle a bit. It would make me feel uncomfortable, but no, I wouldn't up and deck the person who said it to me. I'd probably verbally confront them.

But hey, here's an idea, why don't you just talk about your own goddamn self and not continue with this make shit up about pimpdave trend going on in here.

Sorry Dave. That was not intended as a slight on you. I only used you as an example because you seem like someone who is not offended easily.

It's ironic that you now seem offended by it.

Regardless, the person in the example was not the point.

[Gozar]

Sorry Dave. That was not intended as a slight on you. I only used you as an example because you seem like someone who is not offended easily.

It's ironic that you now seem offended by it.

Regardless, the person in the example was not the point.

You can use my name Tim. I won't be offended.

And why do people use the term 'n-word', when we all know to which word they are referring. If a word is to be offensive, it still offensive no matter how disguised. Unless you are offended by the arrangement of letters, and not by the meaning behind it...

[AndyDufresne]

If I can, I'd like to steer the discussion towards the issues, middle grounds, and points posted above in my two posts. Lets keep working towards an end.


--Andy

[thegreekdog]

Andy, just a clarification on my particular two cents:

I think this point in particular is relevant:

Context and humor is key to avoid misunderstandings. This I think is something that has to be taken into account when discussing the Punishment Scale.

My point is that if we say, "You can't use/say ____" that should be the rule regardless of the context.

As Timminiz pointed out (I agree and am paraphrasing) - Think of CC as being a community of 1,000 people and that when you type something, those 1,000 people can "hear" it. As a crude example (and something that is not offensive to me) - Let's say another Greek person calls me a "sheep-effing boy-loving Spartan" all in good fun. If any of those terms are "banned" words, that person should be warned. It will keep "misunderstandings" to a minimum.

[lancehoch]

Andy, just a clarification on my particular two cents:

I think this point in particular is relevant:

Context and humor is key to avoid misunderstandings. This I think is something that has to be taken into account when discussing the Punishment Scale.

My point is that if we say, "You can't use/say ____" that should be the rule regardless of the context.

As Timminiz pointed out (I agree and am paraphrasing) - Think of CC as being a community of 1,000 people and that when you type something, those 1,000 people can "hear" it. As a crude example (and something that is not offensive to me) - Let's say another Greek person calls me a "sheep-effing boy-loving Spartan" all in good fun. If any of those terms are "banned" words, that person should be warned. It will keep "misunderstandings" to a minimum.

The only problem with this, is that people will avoid the words and use words with similar meanings, but different connotations or they will self censor and still imply the same thing. Should those people also receive warnings?

[thegreekdog]

The only problem with this, is that people will avoid the words and use words with similar meanings, but different connotations or they will self censor and still imply the same thing. Should those people also receive warnings?

I did not think of that, good point. I wish I had the wherewithall to figure out an alternative, but I can't.

[ronsizzle]

does tipper gore have any money in this site? is she the one leading this crusade?

if it aint broke! dont fix it!

why dont all of you in here realize that this is a GAMING SITE! if you start to enforce crazy rules with harsh punishments, you will see lost dividends.

let this go people.

and referring to the person that said "owenshooter didnt start this thread". he may as well have! i believe someone in his clan did. and the only reason for that was so people actually looked at it, rather than discarding it as another owen is crying AGAIN!

here is the solution. if you get offended at something as mild as nshooter, you should go hide in a cave somewhere and never come out.

this thread is made and supported by whiners, babies, and over sensitive freaks. i dont care if you call me white trash, or a cracker. i guess i am a bigger man, and more secure with myself than most.

GROW UP PEOPLE. let the mods do their jobs. and quit bashing them. they are mostly volunteers. but yet in every thread i see, i see this, "the mods do this, the mods do that, they dont do this, they dont do that". they do the best job they can. i stand by whatever they do here.

i think the right decision, is no decision.

[owenator]

In all seriousness, let's be honest, white people using the "N" word are called racists. But no one uses the "N" word more than "African Americans" themselves!

And pray tell, where would you find this information to be actually true?

I live near New Orleans. I have been many other places and nowhere is that word used more by their own race than here. If you think that I would say this just to make a racial statement, you couldn't be more wrong. If you think this isn't true, come see for yourself.

So, let me get this straight...out of 6 billion people in the world using New Orleans as your statistical figure, your so-called fact that the "N" word is more oft used by black people than anyone else? Ummm...yeah. I don't think so. That's just being ignorant Suzy.

[ronsizzle]

and btw, LET THE POLL DO THE WORK FOR YOU!

51 percent of the people say, LET IT GO!

[owenator]

If I can, I'd like to steer the discussion towards the issues, middle grounds, and points posted above in my two posts. Lets keep working towards an end.


--Andy

Andy, I think it was a very well put basis for providing a compromise towards an ugly situation. Thanks again for your never ceasing hard work. It certainly doesn't go unnoticed.

[GENERAL STONEHAM]

Andy, just a clarification on my particular two cents:

I think this point in particular is relevant:

Context and humor is key to avoid misunderstandings. This I think is something that has to be taken into account when discussing the Punishment Scale.

My point is that if we say, "You can't use/say ____" that should be the rule regardless of the context.

As Timminiz pointed out (I agree and am paraphrasing) - Think of CC as being a community of 1,000 people and that when you type something, those 1,000 people can "hear" it. As a crude example (and something that is not offensive to me) - Let's say another Greek person calls me a "sheep-effing boy-loving Spartan" all in good fun. If any of those terms are "banned" words, that person should be warned. It will keep "misunderstandings" to a minimum.

Banned words?!?! Get real!

Saying and using a word, depending on the situation is what makes particular words bad.

Example:
1. Boy, it sure is fucking hot!

2. You're a fucking idiot!

First example, is not to be considered vulgar. Second example is vulgar.

Are we going to start banning words, because you're overly sensitive to certain words.

Perhaps, some of us feel that your avatar is politically incorrect and should be banned. Some might feel that mine is pornographic and should be tossed.

We all need to stop and think, before we start throwing posters out of the forum. C.C. needs to allow a diversity of opinion, not less of it.

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will ....

[AndyDufresne]

I must depart soon, I've many things in real life I should during my days off. I hope to see focused discussion on my above two posts. If I came back and it was all solved, that would be lovely. But if not, I'll continue to work with you all.


--Andy

[thegreekdog]

Banned words?!?! Get real!

Saying and using a word, depending on the situation is what makes particular words bad.

Example:
1. Boy, it sure is fucking hot!

2. You're a fucking idiot!

First example, is not to be considered vulgar. Second example is vulgar.

Are we going to start banning words, because you're overly sensitive to certain words.

Perhaps, some of us feel that your avatar is politically incorrect and should be banned. Some might feel that mine is pornographic and should be tossed.

We all need to stop and think, before we start throwing posters out of the forum. C.C. needs to allow a diversity of opinion, not less of it.

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will ....

Why yes Stoneham, you're absolutely correct. I agree with all of your points. I don't think any words should be banned, at all, in any context, including here on CC. I was simply offering my "solution" to the problem of rascism, bigory, et. al. on this site. If people don't want it, ban the words. It will work. The problem, as I see it, is that certain people don't think enough is being done to combat the rampant rascim (and other bigotry) on this site. I just don't see it, but, then I'm not a member of an accepted racial minority. However, if we want the rascism to stop, we must ban all words that could be considered rascist in any context. Including the "n" word and the "k" word and the whatever other word anyone can think of.

Otherwise, I guess we just stick with the status quo until anyone who is offended enough leaves CC.

[MrBenn]

Banned words?!?! Get real!

Saying and using a word, depending on the situation is what makes particular words bad.

Example:
1. Boy, it sure is fucking hot!

2. You're a fucking idiot!

First example, is not to be considered vulgar. Second example is vulgar.

Actually, both sentences are inappropriate. Why not just say "Boy, it sure is hot" or "You're an idiot"?

If we're going to filter words, why not filter all words that are on the censorship lists used to guide film classifications?

However, the debate isn't so much about the specific language, but about the intent/attitude behind the language...

[ronsizzle]

that would be one person that would leave cc.

that person is a cancer cell here anyways.

that person busts the mods chops on an everyday basis, and then expects them to bend over backwards.

i see less racism on this site than any other site i go to. i will reup my premium when this is all sorted out.

i would like to see what happens before i do so. regardless of me reupping for myself. i will still spend 25 dollars though, and buy someone else premium just to help the site out that i love.

[JoshyBoy]

I did say I wasn't going to post on this topic anymore but I have been given some information and spent a few hours researching the background into what I was saying.

And for the most part, I was WRONG. Apologies to everyone but especially to owenshooter and woodruff.

I believe this topic has no real relevance to me playing ConquerClub and I will just get myself into trouble if I keep talking! so have fun carrying on this thread, but I personally would finish it off and lock it with some satisfactory end being met.

Cheers and apologies again, JB

[GENERAL STONEHAM]

Banned words?!?! Get real!

Saying and using a word, depending on the situation is what makes particular words bad.

Example:
1. Boy, it sure is fucking hot!

2. You're a fucking idiot!

First example, is not to be considered vulgar. Second example is vulgar.

Actually, both sentences are inappropriate. Why not just say "Boy, it sure is hot" or "You're an idiot"?

If we're going to filter words, why not filter all words that are on the censorship lists used to guide film classifications?

However, the debate isn't so much about the specific language, but about the intent/attitude behind the language...

I can quote a book about slavery and how the Plantation owner would yell, "Fucking niggers get back to work!"

This is reciting a quote from a book or past history, NOT a personal slander to any poster here.

We all can get carried away by being so political correct that it would hinder any type of debate or discussion. Unfortunately, especially those from the United States, who throw in a four letter to liven up the language, this is used by most of us YANKS. Try going to the foreign language forums and you'll see that, they too use profanity to add "flavor" to their discussions.

Having some type of filter in these forums would be a grave mistake. If, someone slanders you, complain to the Moderators. You're offended by colorful language, go to a some religious blog.

[jiminski]

Okay, so I've listed the three discussion eras below---for easy reference to particular noteworthy posts, issues, middle grounds, etc.

Era One Discussion
Era Two Discussion
Era Three Discussion

=====================================================

Era One, Issues Summation:

• Bigotry is more prevalent in CC than thought---a large portion occurs in Game Chats and PM, though some also occurrs in the Forums (I'm assumingly mostly GD, Off Topics, and Usergroups).
• Bigotry is ineffectively or inconsistently dealt with. I.E. Team CC does this, and/or Conquer Club in general does not offer enough tools (like the Foe List, Reporting Posts) to add to a user's arsenal to combat such issues.
• Bigotry should be punished more severely than other "No-No's" from the Community Guidelines.
  
  
  As for the otherside:
  
• Bigotry is being used by individuals to troll/spam/cause general chaos for fun.
• Bigotry is dealt with when reported.

Era One, Middle Grounds Proposed:

• Possible addition of a "Report Link" in Active Games (hwhrhett).
• Increased punishment scale for Bigotry over other less community impacting No-No's (such as spamming) (many users contributed to this). A few scales proposed:
  • 1 Strike and Done (Bruceswar).
  • Small Initial Vacation, Increased Vacation, Permanent Vacation (owenator, whitestazn88, owenshooter).
  • Middle Initial Vacation, Permanent Vacation (xxtig12683xx, squishyg).
  • Warning, Increased Vacation, Permanent Vacation (Andy Dufresne, General Stoneham).
  • Stick with the Current Scale of Punishment (barterer2002, Artimis)

=====================================================

Era Two, Issues Summation:

• Context of "gray" areas, cited by xelabale on page 8.
• Humor's role in all of this, cited by General Stoneham on page 12.

Era Two, Middle Grounds Proposed:

• Stern warnings first, followed by increased punishment, perhaps similar to what Timminz outlined, may be a middle ground we can all agree on to help the issue of Context and Humor---allows the user to understand what is acceptable and isn't.
  
• Possible additional and more use of the forum's censor feature.

======================================================

Era Three, Issues Summation:

• Who gets offended when, cited by A.sub and woodruff on page 14.
• What is offensive, isn't always bigoted, cited by xelable on page 14---"Context" is still key.
• Keep your personal information private when possible, responsibility, cited by Mr Changsha on page 17/18.

Middle Grounds Proposed:

• Community consultation/questionaire (Need more info).
• Increased punishment for reports when the abused party reports, to keep misunderstandings to a minimum (jiminski).
• Clarify bigotry rules, what is allowed, what isn't, the context, when, etc, via community consultation (thegreekdog).

--Andy

Very good stuff mate.

heh where to begin!? Well very vaguely I don't agree that any words should be banned/censored without reference to context. That is absolutely nonnegotiable from my point of view. (sorry if that is unhelpful)

I'll be back later if i feel inspired to waffle a bit in greater detail but it is an excellent effort to bring focus to the issue.

[bjc23]

that would be one person that would leave cc.

that person is a cancer cell here anyways.

that person busts the mods chops on an everyday basis, and then expects them to bend over backwards.

i see less racism on this site than any other site i go to. i will reup my premium when this is all sorted out.

i would like to see what happens before i do so. regardless of me reupping for myself. i will still spend 25 dollars though, and buy someone else premium just to help the site out that i love.

Well, ronc8649, ya mind helping a newbie on his way to conquerclub greatness with your purchase of premium membership? (YOU buy premium membership for ME).

As I said, I have recently joined this site by reference from a friend, and this does seem to be a pretty neat site as I used to be a pretty avid Risk player. So I decided to peruse the forums, and "Bigotry on CC" caught my eye (it's the only thing in the forums I have read thus far). As I have come to learn, this is not only a site just to play Risk online, it is in fact it's own community where friends and enemies have been made, online personas have become loved or hated; a place to hang out and meet new people.

So onto the point. Now, I'm not accustomed to how this site works, but I'm human and have my own opinions of this matter, so I thought I'd share. Many have made valid points, sometimes made the exact same point over and over again, although a still valid point (owenshooter), but some have laid out some pretty bad ideas. For one, I whole-heartedly disagree with Night Strike (and others) when they say the "n" word is only denigrating depending on the context. Please, tell me when it's a kind word to use. Think of the meaning of the word, it's sole purpose is to show distaste to African-Americans. Sure, you can say, "I'm not using it against them, just referring to the word" as if to say "(n word) is a term used against African-Americans." In that context, one could make the point that they aren't using it to harm anyone, but still, the word has deep meaning, dating back hundreds of years. I disagree again with the person who made that point that it has only recently become a political incorrect word and that hundreds of years ago, it was a "nice" word to use. That's completely false. The word was used (I have been to a presentation at a local museum about this) commonly by the white folk in the days of slavery to signify white people's dominance over the black race, and to show a lack of respect to the African-American community. Just read the Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, although a fictional story, has many factual-based evidence throughout the book. You'll quickly see the terrible weight the "n" word holds.

The word has such a deep meaning, very hurtful to any man (or woman) of color, ESPECIALLY many years ago. Let me also argue those that have written about African-Americans saying the term to each other. I have many black friends, and I believe I can put my two cents in here too. Pardon me ahead of time for writing this, but "nigga" and the actual "n word" have completely different meanings. Black people use "nigga" as a term of endearment in a way, and they use it freely in conversation. But see, if a white person tries to use it, it's really not okay, and truthfully, I have NEVER said the word. Not even once. Not even when no one else was around, I just feel uncomfortable saying it, myself! If an African-American used the complete "n word," then it raises some eyebrows, and the person the word was aimed at will have something to say. I don't even say "nigga" as I am still white, therefore not having the right to use it which is perfectly fine by me.

As I am also learning, the current punishment system set in place is a "warning, short ban, extended ban, permanently banned"? As I have no clue if this punishment system is enforced, or how tightly it is followed, I can not really say what I think. But here is some food for thought. People have campaigned to have stiffer penalties for bigotry offenses. If I had not read this, and let the word slip (I, personally would not do this, but as a new person, I could have, especially if I hadn't ready this Bigotry topic), I would immediately get a stiff penalty. It will seem like I am going against what I have previously written, but having an excessively stiff penalty, especially for the first offense, is too much. What I would suggest is having a normal warning for the first offense, and if the person makes a second offense, only THEN would it be okay to dish out stiff penalties, b/c they have been warned and would then learn of the stiff penalties that follow for bigotry offenses from that particular warning they had already received.

Well there ya go, take it or leave it.

It will be fun to be a part of the ConquerClub community, looking forward to playing many games with all of you (with or without premium membership)

[MrMoody]

Very good stuff mate.

heh where to begin!? Well very vaguely I don't agree that any words should be banned/censored without reference to context. That is absolutely nonnegotiable from my point of view. (sorry if that is unhelpful)

I'll be back later if i feel inspired to waffle a bit in greater detail but it is an excellent effort to bring focus to the issue.

CC already has word filters in place. Words with much less racist backgrounds are filtered. When I first joined CC the word "sex" was filtered in Live Chat. When chat was upgraded the filter was never fully restored. You still can't say "bitch" in chat. The "N" word is filtered also. If CC is going to filter Live Chat why shouldn't they filter the forum? Is the heated debate not the same in both places?
The "N" word carries to much racial history. Yes I agree context can change things but I still think it should be in the filter. I for one would not like to see it blasted all over the forums.
The response to often is only "put them on foe" Guidelines are already in place to deal with this. Foeing them is fine, they should still be started down the road of a first warning. This would let the abused know more was done other then "put them on foe"

The in game report button is a great idea. I believe this works like an ETicket in that the reporter gets an emailed reply once its looked at?

[jiminski]

Very good stuff mate.

heh where to begin!? Well very vaguely I don't agree that any words should be banned/censored without reference to context. That is absolutely nonnegotiable from my point of view. (sorry if that is unhelpful)

I'll be back later if i feel inspired to waffle a bit in greater detail but it is an excellent effort to bring focus to the issue.

CC already has word filters in place. Words with much less racist backgrounds are filtered. When I first joined CC the word "sex" was filtered in Live Chat. When chat was upgraded the filter was never fully restored. You still can't say "bitch" in chat. The "N" word is filtered also. If CC is going to filter Live Chat why shouldn't they filter the forum? Is the heated debate not the same in both places?
The "N" word carries to much racial history. Yes I agree context can change things but I still think it should be in the filter. I for one would not like to see it blasted all over the forums.
.....

Though i use any word sparingly and as accurately as i can, for example i always make sure 'fuck' is visible on the rare occasion i chose to use it.
If other words are filtered and more, they are added to a 'banned list' with no reference to context, i will find a way to get around the filter and get banned. It is a point of principle for me and sadly unavoidable.


Anyway, there is so much good stuff on the list of points that hopefully something sensible will happen.

[xelabale]

I'm extremely happy about this thread. Despite some detours into trolling for which I and others are guilty, some real progress has been made, due in no small part to monkeyboy. Thank you andy for keeping this a genuine conversation.

It seems that we all agree bigotry is wrong.
It seems most agree there is too much on CC (though not all)
The discussion now seems to be:
a) What constitutes bigotry
b) What to do about it

I argue that you can't simply censor words. Watch: f*ck - f'uck
see, didn't work.

You can't ban bigotry using filters or fixed parameters -"You're an idiotic cotton picker" is the same as "You're a stupid n%%%er" in intent, but the "bad" words aren't used. Bigotry is a state of mind, an attitude.

So, my solution is to give mods the power to decide. However, this is an unfair task for the mods on their own. Even if they put in a superhuman effort (which I'm sure they do ) they would make mistakes. They need help. This can come in several ways:

• A comprehensive set of guidelines perhaps made by us/lack/andy/a reputable organisation that has already gone through this process
• Reporting devices as mentioned in andy's post above to highlight potential problems
• A clear procedure and punishment scale (as discussed and not yet resolved)
• The support of the community

As long as the policy is clear, strong, and enforced, it will work, even if not everyone agrees with it. The problems come with ambiguity and lack of consistent enforcement of stated rules.

[squishyg]

Agreed. I started working on a draft version of some guidelines, but it's leaning more towards what not to do rather than what people should do. My personal goal is for cc (and next, the world) to be a nicer place where we all take each other into consideration.

I'm going to retool what I started working on so it sets more of a tone for what we'd like to see in the cc community, rather than what we don't want to see. It seems like it is necessary though to include some don'ts, to head off misunderstandings.