The Fundamental Problem with Permanent Bans

[F1fth]

The escalating ban scheme in the current form of the guidelines is somewhat like saying after the 6th or 7th parking ticket the police have the right to saw off your hands and poke out your eyes.

That seems a little harsh. If you continue to steal from Wal-Mart, will they not ban you from their store? Or how about continually getting drunk and jumping on the safety mesh at a ball game? That will get you a ban too.

My personal view is that there is likely a middle ground and as a group, you can always make positive changes if you do it in a positive way. I'm not a big fan of permas and though I have given a few forum holidays, I've generally been reluctant to do so. We are still talking about the problem too generally. If the forum goers are willing to work with me, I'd certainly be open working with you to come up with a recommendation or 2. What say you forumites?

Well, I admit that I was exaggerating in order to more clearly illustrate the point. But I don't think that the examples you cited are directly analogous to this instance either. Stealing from Wal-mart is doing actual damage to their business and is also a crime, and drunkenly climbing the safety mesh at the ballgame is creating a potential safety hazard. A more apt comparison would be going into Wal-mart often and complaining about the prices even though you are making purchases at that Wal-mart. Or going to the ballgame and making fun of the players on the field whenever they make an error. In either you case you wouldn't automatically expect to receive a ban, but there is a threshold at some point where that behavior could become genuinely disruptive and damaging to the environment as a whole. I don't think this recent incident with Dancing Mustard really reached that threshold.

As for recommendations...

Well the first thing I would say (which is reiterating what others have said in this thread) is that a perma ban should be used only in the most extreme cases. For instance someone actively trying to cause real damage to the site/business (e.g someone who posts such offensive material that it drives away business, or spam that is designed to lure customers to another site), or engaging in clearly illegal activity (e.g. cyber-stalking/bullying, or using the forum as a venue to exchange pirated software, or kiddie porn). But all this is ostensibly already in the guidelines, perhaps they just need to be more carefully defined and more scrupulously adhered to.

The second thing I would say is that it might be good to have an appeal mechanism where someone who got perma-banned could attempt to lobby for a forum reinstatement. The community as whole could actually take part in this process perhaps a thread in the Cheat and Abuses forum opened for a specific period of time. Users could state their opinions both for and against reinstatement of the banned user. A poll could be included. This might help the mods to consider an individual case more thoroughly with respect to the individual user's impact on the community as a whole (and also provide a kind of face-saving mechanism for the moderators if a ban was imposed hastily or in a less than circumspect manner).

Someone please respond to this. Why do people address the guy venting, but not the guy with some genuinely good and productive ideas?

[hwhrhett]

The escalating ban scheme in the current form of the guidelines is somewhat like saying after the 6th or 7th parking ticket the police have the right to saw off your hands and poke out your eyes.

That seems a little harsh. If you continue to steal from Wal-Mart, will they not ban you from their store? Or how about continually getting drunk and jumping on the safety mesh at a ball game? That will get you a ban too.

My personal view is that there is likely a middle ground and as a group, you can always make positive changes if you do it in a positive way. I'm not a big fan of permas and though I have given a few forum holidays, I've generally been reluctant to do so. We are still talking about the problem too generally. If the forum goers are willing to work with me, I'd certainly be open working with you to come up with a recommendation or 2. What say you forumites?

Well, I admit that I was exaggerating in order to more clearly illustrate the point. But I don't think that the examples you cited are directly analogous to this instance either. Stealing from Wal-mart is doing actual damage to their business and is also a crime, and drunkenly climbing the safety mesh at the ballgame is creating a potential safety hazard. A more apt comparison would be going into Wal-mart often and complaining about the prices even though you are making purchases at that Wal-mart. Or going to the ballgame and making fun of the players on the field whenever they make an error. In either you case you wouldn't automatically expect to receive a ban, but there is a threshold at some point where that behavior could become genuinely disruptive and damaging to the environment as a whole. I don't think this recent incident with Dancing Mustard really reached that threshold.

As for recommendations...

Well the first thing I would say (which is reiterating what others have said in this thread) is that a perma ban should be used only in the most extreme cases. For instance someone actively trying to cause real damage to the site/business (e.g someone who posts such offensive material that it drives away business, or spam that is designed to lure customers to another site), or engaging in clearly illegal activity (e.g. cyber-stalking/bullying, or using the forum as a venue to exchange pirated software, or kiddie porn). But all this is ostensibly already in the guidelines, perhaps they just need to be more carefully defined and more scrupulously adhered to.

The second thing I would say is that it might be good to have an appeal mechanism where someone who got perma-banned could attempt to lobby for a forum reinstatement. The community as whole could actually take part in this process perhaps a thread in the Cheat and Abuses forum opened for a specific period of time. Users could state their opinions both for and against reinstatement of the banned user. A poll could be included. This might help the mods to consider an individual case more thoroughly with respect to the individual user's impact on the community as a whole (and also provide a kind of face-saving mechanism for the moderators if a ban was imposed hastily or in a less than circumspect manner).

Someone please respond to this. Why do people address the guy venting, but not the guy with some genuinely good and productive ideas?

there is already an appeals process, it is through the e-ticket system... of course that could not be discussed publicly, as in the past alot of people will stand up for people and vouch for people that end up being true cheaters and the people that vouched were either accomplises or people that just chose to believe someone's word rather than the facts....

and i dont know of anybody that was perma-banned for something that doesnt hurt the site....
ie:
consistent ridiculous abuse/vulgar language/hate speech hurts the site
cheating hurts the site.

[pimpdave]

Someone please respond to this. Why do people address the guy venting, but not the guy with some genuinely good and productive ideas?

Umm, he got the ideas from the guy who is in your face while providing good and productive ideas. I'm from the east coast, what the hell do you want? Round these parts we bond by fighting one another.

If I wanted to vent I'd have a livejournal. Instead I'm trying to get a point across to a public that has obviously deemed this thread valuable enough to take it to three pages in length. So, sir, I must respectfully say gfy, why don't you respond to it, and lets get back to the topic at hand.

[F1fth]

The escalating ban scheme in the current form of the guidelines is somewhat like saying after the 6th or 7th parking ticket the police have the right to saw off your hands and poke out your eyes.

That seems a little harsh. If you continue to steal from Wal-Mart, will they not ban you from their store? Or how about continually getting drunk and jumping on the safety mesh at a ball game? That will get you a ban too.

My personal view is that there is likely a middle ground and as a group, you can always make positive changes if you do it in a positive way. I'm not a big fan of permas and though I have given a few forum holidays, I've generally been reluctant to do so. We are still talking about the problem too generally. If the forum goers are willing to work with me, I'd certainly be open working with you to come up with a recommendation or 2. What say you forumites?

Well, I admit that I was exaggerating in order to more clearly illustrate the point. But I don't think that the examples you cited are directly analogous to this instance either. Stealing from Wal-mart is doing actual damage to their business and is also a crime, and drunkenly climbing the safety mesh at the ballgame is creating a potential safety hazard. A more apt comparison would be going into Wal-mart often and complaining about the prices even though you are making purchases at that Wal-mart. Or going to the ballgame and making fun of the players on the field whenever they make an error. In either you case you wouldn't automatically expect to receive a ban, but there is a threshold at some point where that behavior could become genuinely disruptive and damaging to the environment as a whole. I don't think this recent incident with Dancing Mustard really reached that threshold.

As for recommendations...

Well the first thing I would say (which is reiterating what others have said in this thread) is that a perma ban should be used only in the most extreme cases. For instance someone actively trying to cause real damage to the site/business (e.g someone who posts such offensive material that it drives away business, or spam that is designed to lure customers to another site), or engaging in clearly illegal activity (e.g. cyber-stalking/bullying, or using the forum as a venue to exchange pirated software, or kiddie porn). But all this is ostensibly already in the guidelines, perhaps they just need to be more carefully defined and more scrupulously adhered to.

The second thing I would say is that it might be good to have an appeal mechanism where someone who got perma-banned could attempt to lobby for a forum reinstatement. The community as whole could actually take part in this process perhaps a thread in the Cheat and Abuses forum opened for a specific period of time. Users could state their opinions both for and against reinstatement of the banned user. A poll could be included. This might help the mods to consider an individual case more thoroughly with respect to the individual user's impact on the community as a whole (and also provide a kind of face-saving mechanism for the moderators if a ban was imposed hastily or in a less than circumspect manner).

Someone please respond to this. Why do people address the guy venting, but not the guy with some genuinely good and productive ideas?

there is already an appeals process, it is through the e-ticket system... of course that could not be discussed publicly, as in the past alot of people will stand up for people and vouch for people that end up being true cheaters and the people that vouched were either accomplises or people that just chose to believe someone's word rather than the facts....

and i dont know of anybody that was perma-banned for something that doesnt hurt the site....
ie:
consistent ridiculous abuse/vulgar language/hate speech hurts the site
cheating hurts the site.

Appreciate the response. For what it's worth, I've never heard of any sentence successfully appealed within the e-ticket system. I think the ticket system is more for account issues and for general questions, not really an appeals system per se.

As for the latter, I would argue than DM has done neither of the things you listed. Sure, he's been kind of a bugger sometimes, but at its worst his behavior is an annoyance, not a serious harm to this site (while at its best contributes A LOT to this site's community).

[pimpdave]

cheating hurts the site.

Dancing Mustard has never cheated, neither have I. Yet I've been banned for things that never hurt the site.

the only people that complain that they are too strict are people that make a habit of breaking the rules..

So then what, you've never taken a risk? You've never made a mistake? Because I can tell you, for certain, that the banning I received from Nighty for the "porn offense" was such a clear mistake no one can ever say it was anything but. I was trying to do a good thing, and educate the masses about how deceptively bad pornography can be.

Instead of being told, "hey man, looks like you made a mistake, but that video had some links to some boobies that weren't a part of that video itself, at all, and some people are very offended by that, so we edited it out, just wanted to let you know to avoid that in the future," I was effectively told,

"Ahoy, pimpdave, you have broken a rule you never knew you broke and so we're issuing you a ban, do not bother telling us it was a huge mistake and you'll not do it again and you are sorry and didn't realize because we are set in our ways and do not want to hear anything from the community because we assume you are all simply addicts who won't complain, so you're banned because I can't get with girls unless I pay for them so I have to take out my frustration on you because I can. Oh yeah, also, even though this banning is complete malarkey, it's going onto your permanent record so we can keep building towards getting rid of you, which is all the message this banning sends anyway. Oh, and hey, give us money for premium, it's totally worth it! Whee!"

This is the same thing Dancing Mustard was told repeatedly.

Now, it wouldn't be such a big deal if that wasn't added to some PERMANENT RECORD that couldn't EVER BE ERASED OR CHANGED. If it was just, "hey, you did something risky and got burnt, here's 24 hours to rethink the links you post and make sure none contain links to stuff that is inappropriate", that'd be fine. But because it becomes this part of a permanent record that is used to justify a permanent banning, I have every right to be completely pissed off about it, just as Dancing Mustard should be. And if they'll do it to him, they'll do it to all of us.

[F1fth]

Someone please respond to this. Why do people address the guy venting, but not the guy with some genuinely good and productive ideas?

Umm, he got the ideas from the guy who is in your face while providing good and productive ideas. I'm from New Jersey, what the hell do you want? Round these parts we bond by fighting one another.

If I wanted to vent I'd have a livejournal. Instead I'm trying to get a point across to a public that has obviously deemed this thread valuable enough to take it to three pages in length. So, sir, I must respectfully say gfy, why don't you respond to it, and lets get back to the topic at hand.

No offense intended, and I humbly accept my deserved "gfy." My point was that people were choosing to respond the perceived negativity in the post, instead of the constructiveness of it and others.

[hwhrhett]

Appreciate the response. For what it's worth, I've never heard of any sentence successfully appealed within the e-ticket system. I think the ticket system is more for account issues and for general questions, not really an appeals system per se.

As for the latter, I would argue than DM has done neither of the things you listed. Sure, he's been kind of a bugger sometimes, but at its worst his behavior is an annoyance, not a serious harm to this site (while at its best contributes A LOT to this site's community).

people appeal and get reinstated through etickets often. it happens, sometimes the mods make mistakes, ive seen it happen. the reason you never hear about it, is because the only people that complain about being banned or need to post about being banned are the people that legitimately broke the rules, and can only have their side(typically a very slanted point of view) heard by making a fuss in the forum.

i can tell you this tho, i know of nobody who was reinstated because they whined about it like pimpdave.

and to you pimpdave, i understand your bust wholly. if i posted a video that was geniunely wholesome but had porno ads on the side of it, i wouldnt post it, because there is a good chance that it will cause problems for some. i mean, you didnt just post the video.... you posted a link to a website that had adult content on it, just because you wanted people to focus on one tiny part of the page, doesnt mean that people will. and frankly anything adult oriented you should just keep to yourself i think.

[pimpdave]

people appeal and get reinstated through etickets often. it happens, sometimes the mods make mistakes, ive seen it happen. the reason you never hear about it, is because the only people that complain about being banned or need to post about being banned are the people that legitimately broke the rules, and can only have their side(typically a very slanted point of view) heard by making a fuss in the forum.

i can tell you this tho, i know of nobody who was reinstated because they whined about it like pimpdave.

and to you pimpdave, i understand your bust wholly. if i posted a video that was geniunely wholesome but had porno ads on the side of it, i wouldnt post it, because there is a good chance that it will cause problems for some. i mean, you didnt just post the video.... you posted a link to a website that had adult content on it, just because you wanted people to focus on one tiny part of the page, doesnt mean that people will. and frankly anything adult oriented you should just keep to yourself i think.

And guess what you trolling fool, I ALREADY STATED THAT I HAD NO IDEA WHAT THOSE RANDOMLY GENERATED RELATED VIDEOS WOULD BE. I had no idea there would be links to videos about preventing breast cancer (because that is what they were OH THE HUMANITY)

I had never done it before, I've never done it since. I didn't need something going on my permanent record about it, and I did try to appeal to private channels, but the disgraced and removed mods, Night Strike and Twill must have seen it as an affront to their power.

That happened months ago, maybe even a year ago. But it is STILL PART OF THE PERMANENT RECORD.

There is no arguing with you. You are just part and parcel with the mods, and what will make this more interesting is when we find examples of you crossing the lines that we've all been busted for, but since your nose is so firmly planted in their rears, you've never been banned for it.

Just shut up. Either stop trolling and actually engage this thread, or shut up. I mean it. You're being a complete hypocrite otherwise, and if the mods don't ban you for 24 hours for your obvious trolling (just as DM used to do), then it simply further proves our point that this was a personal vendetta.

[Simon Viavant]

I thought this whole banning thing was supposed to be for if someone was a constant problem for the community. As I can see, very few people in the community had a problem with DM or pretty much anyone else who was permabanned, and if they did, it can be summed up in that they don't like him, which isn't a good reason for a ban. Most banned people always been appreciated by the community. They were banned because they annoyed a couple of the mods. The Community Guidelines say you'll be removed if you're constantly having a negative influence on the community. Annoying the mods probably deserves some punishment, but not a permaban.
Let's say people were complaining about DM. WHat's more important isn't the number of complaints, but the percentage. If 5 people complain about someone who has just joined and few people know the site, it should be taken more seriously than someone who gets 10 complaints but is liked by everyone else.

[pimpdave]

Let's say people were complaining about DM. WHat's more important isn't the number of complaints, but the percentage. If 5 people complain about someone who has just joined and few people know the site, it should be taken more seriously than someone who gets 10 complaints but is liked by everyone else.

Or, if they're going to have a complaint button, have a karma button too, where we can click to let people know that we appreciate and value the post, instead of only ever sending negative messages to the mods.

Of course, that's a silly compromise, the truth is, the mods should stop being so retart, and foster community rather than the divisive and toxic atmosphere they've been fostering since Twill was in charge.

Come on Hyasri, prove to us that Twill actually did leave. Prove to us that you really do mean to usher in a new time of "love and peace". Stop with the old paradigm as you claimed you would. I know you can do it. I'm sure you can. Give us a reason to have faith and we will.

[hwhrhett]

people appeal and get reinstated through etickets often. it happens, sometimes the mods make mistakes, ive seen it happen. the reason you never hear about it, is because the only people that complain about being banned or need to post about being banned are the people that legitimately broke the rules, and can only have their side(typically a very slanted point of view) heard by making a fuss in the forum.

i can tell you this tho, i know of nobody who was reinstated because they whined about it like pimpdave.

and to you pimpdave, i understand your bust wholly. if i posted a video that was geniunely wholesome but had porno ads on the side of it, i wouldnt post it, because there is a good chance that it will cause problems for some. i mean, you didnt just post the video.... you posted a link to a website that had adult content on it, just because you wanted people to focus on one tiny part of the page, doesnt mean that people will. and frankly anything adult oriented you should just keep to yourself i think.

And guess what you trolling fool, I ALREADY STATED THAT I HAD NO IDEA WHAT THOSE RANDOMLY GENERATED RELATED VIDEOS WOULD BE. I had no idea there would be links to videos about preventing breast cancer (because that is what they were OH THE HUMANITY)

I had never done it before, I've never done it since. I didn't need something going on my permanent record about it, and I did try to appeal to private channels, but the disgraced and removed mods, Night Strike and Twill must have seen it as an affront to their power.

That happened months ago, maybe even a year ago. But it is STILL PART OF THE PERMANENT RECORD.

There is no arguing with you. You are just part and parcel with the mods, and what will make this more interesting is when we find examples of you crossing the lines that we've all been busted for, but since your nose is so firmly planted in their rears, you've never been banned for it.

Just shut up. Either stop trolling and actually engage this thread, or shut up. I mean it. You're being a complete hypocrite otherwise, and if the mods don't ban you for 24 hours for your obvious trolling (just as DM used to do), then it simply further proves our point that this was a personal vendetta.

what part of my posts were trolling? i believe i was pretty directly on-topic. you are the one trolling by responding with insults rather than thought out discussion. lick my balls.

[pimpdave]

So then what, you're Night Strike's multi, or what?

Keep trying to take this off topic, buddy, you're just helping to build the case against you.

Or maybe you could argue for the end to this repressive paradigm and accept that if you're going to be a trolling off-topic-going silly person, we all should be allowed to be, without the threat of a permanent ban.

Remember, I'm not arguing against temporary bans. I'm arguing against the permanent ban as a tool of ANYTHING but ABSOLUTE LAST RESORT.

[Night Strike]

And guess what you trolling fool, I ALREADY STATED THAT I HAD NO IDEA WHAT THOSE RANDOMLY GENERATED RELATED VIDEOS WOULD BE. I had no idea there would be links to videos about preventing breast cancer (because that is what they were OH THE HUMANITY)

I had never done it before, I've never done it since. I didn't need something going on my permanent record about it, and I did try to appeal to private channels, but the disgraced and removed mods, Night Strike and Twill must have seen it as an affront to their power.

That happened months ago, maybe even a year ago. But it is STILL PART OF THE PERMANENT RECORD.

By the way, I still haven't been removed, muchless disgraced. You should find a new argument.

Since you brought it up, I'll post it. Here is what I wrote when I gave you that 24 hour vacation:

Although the video you posted was not pornographic, the other videos/links on the page were. This is not allowed on this site, so please take 24 hours to make sure all the links you wish to post on this site comply with the Community Guidelines.

I'll let the public decide.

By the way, you know full well what your record has been since I gave you that forum vacation at the beginning of January. I'm not allowed to discuss it publicly of my own volition, but I do see that the 24 hour vacation I gave you did not move you up the ladder. Maybe you should share the other things you've posted that have earned you warnings and vacations in an effort of full disclosure.

There is no arguing with you. You are just part and parcel with the mods, and what will make this more interesting is when we find examples of you crossing the lines that we've all been busted for, but since your nose is so firmly planted in their rears, you've never been banned for it.

Just shut up. Either stop trolling and actually engage this thread, or shut up. I mean it. You're being a complete hypocrite otherwise, and if the mods don't ban you for 24 hours for your obvious trolling (just as DM used to do), then it simply further proves our point that this was a personal vendetta.

He's not trolling, he's disagreeing with your claim. Not everyone who is not a mod will agree with you.

[PLAYER57832]

First, I am definitely not going to criticize any one mod. If I have an issue, I take it to the person directly. I have, the matters were resolved.. the end.

I have had mixed feelings about the DM issue all along. On the one hand, DM was fun and I am not really sure why what he did was so very terrible. On the other hand, there are some people who want to constantly challenge any rule, any "system" and DM seemed to be one. Maybe the rules did/do need to be modified, but breaking rules is usually not the most effective way to elicite change.

I think jonuscurl put it well.

My feeling is that there is something more going on here. Specifically, I suspect that these threads might be taking up more server space or some such. But, if that is the case, then perhaps that should be addressed more directly. For example, maybe there needs to be a limit on the number of threads someone can start or (gasp ) even a limit on the number of posts. I would hate to see that. Also, just having a limit may make some people post up to that point and actually make the situation worse.

The other alternative is that there was something going on outside of the public forums. If that is true, none of us may ever know what really happened. Nor should we.

[pimpdave]

He's not trolling, he's disagreeing with your claim. Not everyone who is not a mod will agree with you.

Seriously, why the hell are you in this thread? Your ability to be impartial is clearly compromised. If you are speaking for all of the mods, then please, keep posting, if not, then for your own good, shut up.

[pimpdave]

My feeling is that there is something more going on here. Specifically, I suspect that these threads might be taking up more server space or some such. But, if that is the case, then perhaps that should be addressed more directly. For example, maybe there needs to be a limit on the number of threads someone can start or (gasp ) even a limit on the number of posts. I would hate to see that. Also, just having a limit may make some people post up to that point and actually make the situation worse.

They could start deleting all of the threads that are a year or more old, that would prevent necro bumping and save a ton of server space.

The forum that I've been moderating for the last year has been doing that. And it works, we can keep our costs down while preserving the free spirit of the board. If there's a post someone really wants to keep, they can copy and paste it into a Word document, or whatever.

Also, the longest ban I've issued was for 2 weeks, and that was to a guy who was getting on everyone's nerves for posting links to articles he had written on another site. He'd post like 5 of these threads a day, and then bump them continuously even though no one was replying or visiting his site.

The two week ban was enough, he now only posts one of his articles a day and bumps it only once.

[F1fth]

I thought this whole banning thing was supposed to be for if someone was a constant problem for the community. As I can see, very few people in the community had a problem with DM or pretty much anyone else who was permabanned, and if they did, it can be summed up in that they don't like him, which isn't a good reason for a ban. Most banned people always been appreciated by the community. They were banned because they annoyed a couple of the mods. The Community Guidelines say you'll be removed if you're constantly having a negative influence on the community. Annoying the mods probably deserves some punishment, but not a permaban.
Let's say people were complaining about DM. WHat's more important isn't the number of complaints, but the percentage. If 5 people complain about someone who has just joined and few people know the site, it should be taken more seriously than someone who gets 10 complaints but is liked by everyone else.

EXCELLENT POINT! What is everyone's opinion on this?

Appreciate the response. For what it's worth, I've never heard of any sentence successfully appealed within the e-ticket system. I think the ticket system is more for account issues and for general questions, not really an appeals system per se.

As for the latter, I would argue than DM has done neither of the things you listed. Sure, he's been kind of a bugger sometimes, but at its worst his behavior is an annoyance, not a serious harm to this site (while at its best contributes A LOT to this site's community).

people appeal and get reinstated through etickets often. it happens, sometimes the mods make mistakes, ive seen it happen. the reason you never hear about it, is because the only people that complain about being banned or need to post about being banned are the people that legitimately broke the rules, and can only have their side(typically a very slanted point of view) heard by making a fuss in the forum.

Well, actually, we're making a case for DM. He himself has not raised a ruckus, and many of us are being civil and constructive about approaching this matter. I'm not sure that you knew DM, but as quite a few others have said (and some even people who didn't like him and debated with him frequently) voiced their support of the notion that while annoying sometimes, DM did not harm the site.

i can tell you this tho, i know of nobody who was reinstated because they whined about it like pimpdave.

and to you pimpdave, i understand your bust wholly. if i posted a video that was geniunely wholesome but had porno ads on the side of it, i wouldnt post it, because there is a good chance that it will cause problems for some. i mean, you didnt just post the video.... you posted a link to a website that had adult content on it, just because you wanted people to focus on one tiny part of the page, doesnt mean that people will. and frankly anything adult oriented you should just keep to yourself i think.

I think it makes a good bit of difference that the site that Dave linked to happened to be Youtube, not really site that people usually have a problem linking to.

[owenshooter]

the only people that complain that they are too strict are people that make a habit of breaking the rules..

really? i just received a final warning for "trolling" the General Congrats thread. however, i did not break any rules of the thread or the forum when posting in there. and oddly enough, jiminski and robinette just did the same exact thing that pimpdave and myself did, with no warning. when pressed for clarification from first myself and then fruitcake (on behalf of my clan), we received NO RESPONSE FROM THE ADMINS. wow!!! i recall andy breaking the rules of the general congrats thread, not understanding the rules of the thread, then deleting an entire page of the thread to save face, but i deserved a final warning for not breaking one rule? the mods/admins are simply out of control and lack needs to bring back twill, period. i dare anyone to show me what DM did besides put egg in the face of the admins and mods for not knowing their own rules and the fact that he had not broken any of them.-0

[PLAYER57832]

My feeling is that there is something more going on here. Specifically, I suspect that these threads might be taking up more server space or some such. But, if that is the case, then perhaps that should be addressed more directly. For example, maybe there needs to be a limit on the number of threads someone can start or (gasp ) even a limit on the number of posts. I would hate to see that. Also, just having a limit may make some people post up to that point and actually make the situation worse.

They could start deleting all of the threads that are a year or more old, that would prevent necro bumping and save a ton of server space.

The forum that I've been moderating for the last year has been doing that. And it works, we can keep our costs down while preserving the free spirit of the board. If there's a post someone really wants to keep, they can copy and paste it into a Word document, or whatever.

I am just guessing. I have absolutely no idea if this was reality or not.

[pimpdave]

They could start deleting all of the threads that are a year or more old, that would prevent necro bumping and save a ton of server space.

The forum that I've been moderating for the last year has been doing that. And it works, we can keep our costs down while preserving the free spirit of the board. If there's a post someone really wants to keep, they can copy and paste it into a Word document, or whatever.

I am just guessing. I have absolutely no idea if this was reality or not.

And what are we supposed to do in the absence of any real communication? That's part of why this forum is so dead and so sad... The favorites get treated well, the rest of us don't. The favorites tell us we're overreacting and we tell the favorites that they have no idea what's really going on.

The mods aren't straight with us all the time, so we can only assume they aren't straight with us ever. It's really sad, but this site could be so much better if half the complaints that result in bans resulted in mods suggesting the crybaby put the person they dislike on ignore.

[jiminski]

Sorry if this is a repeat. I'm pressed for time. But here is an example that can be used as an analogy:

A person shoplifts and is found guilty. He is sentenced to 20 hours of community service.

He shoplifts again 6 months later and is found guilty. He is sentenced to 2 weeks in jail.

He shoplifts again 3 months later and is found guilty. He is sentenced to 1 month in jail.

He steals a car 2 months later and is found guilty. He is sentenced to 1 year in jail.

He shoplifts again 6 months later and is found guilty. He is sentenced to 2 months in jail.

Etc. Etc. Etc.

But there is no way this annoying prick is going to ever be executed or thrown into jail for more than a few months for shoplifting. He might get another year for stealing a car. But never, ever, life.

This time, DM only shoplifted. A fuckin' pack of chewing gum. 24 hours of community service. Max.


I agree with the concept of a permanent ban. But it would have to be applied only in extreme cases. The permabanning of DM was a poor decision.

[Optimus Prime]

the mods/admins are simply out of control and lack needs to bring back twill, period.

Last time I checked, lackattack was fully aware of the decision to ban Dancing Mustard and did not express any problems or concerns with the decision. Before you, owenshooter, or anyone else continues to pretend that lackattack does not have a say, or that he does not have a clear idea of the actions of the moderators or admins you should make sure that you know all of the facts, to the letter. So far, your continued insistence on stating that he is entirely out of the loop is entirely uninformed and false.

Night Strike was not removed from the position of global moderator because of abuse or misuse of his powers, he was asked by the admins to shift his responsibilities over to being the head of the tournaments department. That's all. That is one fact that pimpdave needs to get straight as well.

Regards, OP

[F1fth]

Hey OP, what about this? I'm just trying to get a response to these points.

I thought this whole banning thing was supposed to be for if someone was a constant problem for the community. As I can see, very few people in the community had a problem with DM or pretty much anyone else who was permabanned, and if they did, it can be summed up in that they don't like him, which isn't a good reason for a ban. Most banned people always been appreciated by the community. They were banned because they annoyed a couple of the mods. The Community Guidelines say you'll be removed if you're constantly having a negative influence on the community. Annoying the mods probably deserves some punishment, but not a permaban.
Let's say people were complaining about DM. WHat's more important isn't the number of complaints, but the percentage. If 5 people complain about someone who has just joined and few people know the site, it should be taken more seriously than someone who gets 10 complaints but is liked by everyone else.

Also, a short list of questions:
-Do you think permabans should only be issued when absolutely necessary?
-Do you think a permaban in the case of DM was absolutely necessary?
-Do you think the community is better (as a whole, not personally) without DM around?
-Do you think the community should get any input as to what is best for the community?
-Finally, do you think shortening the term of DM's ban to a temporary one would cause a problem?

OP or any other admin/mod is free and encouraged to respond to these set of questions.

[Optimus Prime]

Tell you what, F1fth, I'll answer these questions with my honest answers from the point of view as an admin. However, I want you to respect those answers and understand that the answers are not going to please everyone as well as refrain from dragging things through the mud when I'm finished. Sound like a deal?

-Do you think permabans should only be issued when absolutely necessary?

Yes, I think that permanent forum bans should be used as a final measure to ensure the stability of the community. However, in the effort to ensure that stability, I also believe that if a user has received numerous warnings and punishments that a permanent forum ban can be warranted to prevent problems from arising if the user has demonstrated that they are here in the community to be a general nuisance and very little else, regardless of how popular they may be with some forum regulars.

-Do you think a permaban in the case of DM was absolutely necessary

Anyone can always argue that anything is never absolutely necessary, which I think makes sense to most of us. In the case of Dancing Mustard, yes, I do believe it was time for him to go, and I do support the decision that was made as a collective of four admins over the course of a discussion that had facts and examples brought forward in what I believe to be a fair manner.

-Do you think the community is better (as a whole, not personally) without DM around?

Yes, I do, and please let me explain why. During Dancing Mustard's self-imposed sabbatical from Conquer Club the moderation team and the admins especially enduring a very large drop in complaints about the atmosphere in the forum as a whole. Was Dancing Mustard the only cause for those complaints? No, he was not, they are largely brought about by a chosen few forum regulars (who I shall not name out of respect and a wish to avoid mud-slinging). Upon his return, the number of general complaints about him and others who followed his lead began to rise dramatically, at least in respect to the work that I do personally as an admin, I cannot speak for the other three members of the admin team.

I am entirely willing to admit that over my time here at Conquer Club I have laughed out loud on many occasions due to the wit of Dancing Mustard, and at times I've thought he was dead on with his ideas and thoughts, but that does not change the fact that not everyone saw him as some sort of hero or personality figure in the forum, and as admins it is our jobs to try and make decisions that will benefit the greater number of people. Many here don't believe the decision to ban Dancing Mustard permanently is of benefit, but what everyone also needs to remember is that what you see here in the publicly viewed forums is not the entire story of the impact he had on the community. Think what you will about that, but it is the truth.

-Do you think the community should get any input as to what is best for the community?

I don't think that the community at large should be put in charge of discussing who should and should not be permanently banned, no. I think that will lead to many more problems than it would solve. However, I do think that the community can be allowed to have a voice in deciding certain things that will ultimately provide what is best for the community. Case in point is the not so far in the past situation revolving around bigotry/racism and the policies that should be enforced regarding such things. The community was clamoring for more definitive punishment procedures and out of that came quite a productive discussion about consistency, the difference between major and minor forum infractions, and many other things. As a result of the community input AndyDufresne was able to determine two new ladders for escalating punishments, one for major infractions, and one for minor infractions.

Interestingly enough, the community was quite pleased when Andy made it known that the new ladders were in place and he explained how they would be used, but now that they are being enforced and someone who is "beloved" by the community is the victim all of the sudden these new ladders of punishment are inadequate and absurd. I find it quite interesting to see the same people who praised the new ladders now tearing them down as absurd, but that is simply my personal opinion.

-Finally, do you think shortening the term of DM's ban to a temporary one would cause a problem?

Yes, I do believe that it would. He was punished according to the new punishment system that the community was calling for and he received the proper punishment within that system. To reverse the decision will not only make the system worthless, but it will also require many other bans to be reversed as well, something that is not favorable in the least.

[jiminski]

Tell you what, F1fth, I'll answer these questions with my honest answers from the point of view as an admin. However, I want you to respect those answers and understand that the answers are not going to please everyone as well as refrain from dragging things through the mud when I'm finished. Sound like a deal?

...

why'd you have to go and say that Prime?